semantics

[Vort]

Hey Vort I have an idea.....lets all the true believers start strapping on bombs and get rid of the unbelievers. Martyrdom yay.

This must be the new incarnation of Godwin's Law.

[Lstinthwrld]

This must be the new incarnation of Godwin's Law.

Don't know the difference between Hitler and Islamic extremism huh?

[Lstinthwrld]

This must be the new incarnation of Godwin's Law.

I don't even know why I responded to you. Religious fanaticism = ignorance plain and simple. I will not respond to you in the future. Thank you for your contributions.

Now back to topic.

[Misshalfway]

See you think the only way to God is through mormonism I dont.

This thread is interesting to say the least.

I hope I might add a perspective that hopefully will explain this more fully.

There is much light and good and truth in this world. There is nothing about mormonism that disputes this. The Spirit of God teaches and comforts and enlightens sometimes even if people don't recognize it as such. And this happens in churches, homes, laboratories, and hearts.

I believe God is working thru out this earth. I believe he loves all his children and wants them to understand truth and obey His commandments/commands so that they can not only come home to Him but so He can bless them with all He has to offer.

We often say in the church, as did GB Hinckley, that we invite people to come and learn more but to bring your truth with you.

This is the official quote. " the only true church with which I the Lord am well pleased, speaking of the church collectively and not individually." The reason the Lord is well pleased is because this is HIS church where his authority is present. Perhaps there are true churches but the Lord isn't pleased with them. Or maybe they started out true, but lost things. Or maybe if we mormons are right, a great apostacy happened and a restoration was needed.

So the issue for you, I would think, would be to really understand what these statements/doctrines mean and then work to determine whether or not it is true. There is no need to argue about it really. Either its true or its not. Either its the kind of understanding God wants to lead people to or its not. Either Jesus is the founder of the faith or He isn't. It is for us as humans to decide and find spiritual confirmation and then to invite and help others do the same.

[Misshalfway]

I was gonna say too. It's not a perfect church and it never claimed to be. We are all in the same boat .....all weak and foolish and sinful, but all doing our best to repent and become more loving.

There is much in this church that is good. I have found truth here. I have spiritual experience to confirm my decision to stay in this church. I can't say how God communicates to all His children. Perhaps others are needed elsewhere. I can't know the full mind of God, nor do I try to put limits on his attentions. But in the same breath, I don't see how God could contradict himself either when it comes to doctrine. There has to be some rights and wrongs.....truths/errors in the world.

[Lstinthwrld]

I was gonna say too. It's not a perfect church and it never claimed to be. We are all in the same boat .....all weak and foolish and sinful, but all doing our best to repent and become more loving.

There is much in this church that is good. I have found truth here. I have spiritual experience to confirm my decision to stay in this church. I can't say how God communicates to all His children. Perhaps others are needed elsewhere. I can't know the full mind of God, nor do I try to put limits on his attentions. But in the same breath, I don't see how God could contradict himself either when it comes to doctrine. There has to be some rights and wrongs.....truths/errors in the world.

You redeem this thread. Thank you very much.

I agree with most of what you say and I am trying to work it out.

It has been a long road for me and I am tired. I just want to find a home spiritually I guess. But I can not join something just to join. I have to believe and belief is hard for me.

So the road is long and unfortunately it ain't getti'n any shorter.

But honestly thank you Misshalfway.

There is wisdom in your words.

[Misshalfway]

Well, you are welcome.

Don't worry about the length of the journey. What is it they say....when the learner is ready the teacher appears. :) And as far as I can tell, we are all still in the middle of our personal journeys. Joining a church....joining this church is only the beginning.

Don't join just to join. NO ONE wants that, I guarantee you. You have to be true to yourself, AND maybe this is the hard part....being humble and true to God even if He doesn't always explain why.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of scripture study and prayer. We can work these things out with others in tennis matches like this one, but its the private stuff that really makes the difference.

Best wishes to you.

[Justice]

It's all in the Book of Mormon.

It's cliche, but sometimes things are repeated so much because they're true. :)

Read it and pray about it, while having an honest desire to know if it's true.

[prisonchaplain]

This is an issue for me.

This kind of "the LDS church is the only way" egotistic junk is the main reason I haven't joined the church.

I personally don't believe God and salvation are or can be exclusive to one religion much less one church organization.

This whole my way or noway crap was not in vogue until the book against heresies by Irenaeus came out in early Christianity.

This view has got to stop.

Christianity in general and the mormon church in particular is not the only way to get to 'heaven'.

It may be smart aleck, but I'm only arrogant and narrow-minded if I'm wrong. If I'm right, then I'm passionate and focused.

Let's take your proposal for a spin, though. If there is a God, what's He like? Is He good? Does He care about his creation? Does He really want to be involved in our existence? If so, how would He do that? Would He create a set of standards for us to live by, and a systematic way for us to approach him and worship?

To me, only Christianity and Islam come close to a universal God system that makes sense to me. And Christianity flows from the Old Testament better than Islam does, to my reckoning.

[Snow]

This is a stupid come lately argument.

You smooth talking ladies man, you.

By this logic what authority did he need?

I'll take priesthood authority for $500 Alex.

There was no church no authority before him so if we follow the logic of your argument I can baptize and don't need anyone elses authority for any type of religious rite.

Forget about my logic - I'm just trying to figure out what on earth you are talking about.

Therefore negating organized Christianity as we know it today.

No - that's still not helping. It was kinda like a sentence, but it doesn't make any sense.

Everything is a progression.

Well no, you smooth talking ladies man, everything is not a progression. You're still not making sense.

From church authority to knowledge.

There you go again. It was kinda like a sentence but not really - and it make no sense. Is English a 2nd or 3rd language for you?

Also there was not much knowledge because of a little thing called illiteracy in the first century as well.

The standards of the time are much different from then to now.

Keep perspective please.

I guess, and when reading your posts, guessing plays a big part, that your point is that illiterate people don't need to be or deserve to be educated about movements or groups that they join prior to joining them... am I missing something Mr Ladies Man?

[bytebear]

I can't speak to encounters with missionaries, but in my discussions here, henotheism does seem to represent LDS theology the best. I've seen a few openly say they are polytheistic, and focus on their drive to exaltation. Yet, a few others, perhaps in a desire to find common ground with other Christians, insist they are montheists. They focus on the Godhead being one in purpose, and their sole target of devotion.

Perhaps the reality that members can insist on all three explanations, sometimes with great passion, explains some of the OP's concern?

I agree with your assessment, and I would fall into one of either category, but I claim monotheism only because we have scripture in the Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C that explicitly teach that. Your interpretation of why and how may vary, but the Godhead is ONE God per scripture.

[bmy-]

So was Adam/God, and yet, it is not doctrine.

The thread is called "semantics" and that is what you are arguing. But the scriptures are very clear. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are ONE God. Period.

Adam-God theory was mainly taught by Brigham and has since then been dismissed by the Church has false. The henotheist version of the Godhead (3 distinct individuals who are ONE in purpose only) has been taught in General Conference by Prophets, Apostles, GAs, is in LDS handbooks.. and is doctrine.

3 separate and distinct individuals, one purpose = Godhead

Unfortunately.. we are not arguing semantics. Godhead and the Trinity are not the same. One is henotheistic and the other is monotheistic.. and that's a huge difference.

"The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have met with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being." - President Hinckley

Edited August 20, 2009 by bmy-

[bytebear]

Adam-God theory was mainly taught by Brigham. The henotheist version of the Godhead (3 distinct individuals who are ONE in purpose only) has been taught in General Conference by Prophets, Apostles, GAs, is in LDS handbooks.. and is doctrine. Just because you want to disprove the trinity, does not mean you can reinterpret the scriptures just to denounce a false teaching. You are replacing one false understanding with another.

3 separate and distinct individuals, one purpose = Godhead

Unfortunately.. we are not arguing semantics. Godhead and the Trinity are not the same. One is henotheistic and the other is monotheistic.. and that's a huge difference.

Adam/God was published in church manuals, spoken of in conferences, etc. It was as prevalent as any other doctrine at the time. I know of no prophet who has ever used the term "henotheism," nor do I know any who has claimed God is not ONE, per Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C definitions. Henotheism is the definition of man, not the words of prophets. One in purpose is still ONE GOD, and still monotheistic.

How do you interpret the following verses:

D&C 20: 28

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Alma 11

26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29 And he answered, No.

30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

Mosiah 15: 4

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

2 Ne. 31: 21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 14: 5

5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land.

Morm. 7: 7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Edited August 20, 2009 by bytebear

[bmy-]

Adam/God was published in church manuals, spoken of in conferences, etc. It was as prevalent as any other doctrine at the time. I know of no prophet who has ever used the term "henotheism," nor do I know any who has claimed God is not ONE, per Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C definitions. Henotheism is the definition of man, not the words of prophets. One in purpose is still ONE GOD, and still monotheistic.

"The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord's Prayer? How could He have met with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being." - President Hinckley

I edited this in but it was to late. Adam/God doctrine was disputed even while it was being taught by Brigham.. which lead to Brighams 'how much disbelief exists' quote.

If they are separate beings and not mere extensions of the Father it cannot be monotheistic. That's really the bottom line.

[bytebear]

Sorry, post messed up.

He is referring to the Father, but the Father, along with the Son, along with the Holy Ghost is still ONE GOD. Again, do you believe the scriptures? You appear to be ignoring them.

You say if they are separate beings they cannot be one God. but that directly contradicts the scriptures, so clearly we do not fully understand the parameters of what makes up one God.

Edited August 20, 2009 by bytebear

[Lstinthwrld]

You smooth talking ladies man, you.

I'll take priesthood authority for $500 Alex.

Only by the mormon tradition.

Forget about my logic - I'm just trying to figure out what on earth you are talking about.

OK I will start using monosyllabic words so you can follow the conversation.

No - that's still not helping. It was kinda like a sentence, but it doesn't make any sense.

Pay attention to the whole thread then and don't just jump in when you feel a good argument coming.

Well no, you smooth talking ladies man, everything is not a progression. You're still not making sense.

Yes EVERYTHING is a progression. Otherwise people would have been working out string theory 15,000 years ago instead of fire and the wheel

There you go again. It was kinda like a sentence but not really - and it make no sense. Is English a 2nd or 3rd language for you?

Really you can criticize?

I guess, and when reading your posts, guessing plays a big part, that your point is that illiterate people don't need to be or deserve to be educated about movements or groups that they join prior to joining them... am I missing something Mr Ladies Man?

It is nice to know that the mormons have people that just hang around these boards that are here to start crap just like non mormons.

[Snow]

It is nice to know that the mormons have people that just hang around these boards that are here to start crap just like non mormons.

You made some interesting claims or assumptions or implications. I'd like to see some valid argument or evidence that:

John the Baptist had no authority from God.

People who were illiterate shouldn't be knowledgeable about what they were getting into before joining up.

That somehow John the Baptist baptizing with or without authority negates all Christianity.

Everything, which would include my socks and the air I breath, is a progression - and that is somehow relevant to something.

[lattelady]

Once again I am wondering why Snow is allowed to talk like this to others and bully people? I had to agree to rules to use this forum...others did as well. Common courtesy says we don't treat each other this way. The love of Christ says we treat each other with kindness and speak the truth in love. Why is all that talking-smack being allowed?

[Lstinthwrld]

You made some interesting claims or assumptions or implications. I'd like to see some valid argument or evidence that:

John the Baptist had no authority from God.

People who were illiterate shouldn't be knowledgeable about what they were getting into before joining up.

That somehow John the Baptist baptizing with or without authority negates all Christianity.

Everything, which would include my socks and the air I breath, is a progression - and that is somehow relevant to something.

Go back and read the post. Try and understand a little concept called sarcasm and then get back to me.

[Justice]

Interesting you would include your socks and the air you breathe in the same sentence.

Good thing I don't have to unclude your socks in the air I breathe. :)

[Lstinthwrld]

Vort said: Irenaeus? You have got to be kidding.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?

Yes I have many versions. Irenaeus predates them all.