LDS Faith Monotheistic?

[Maureen]

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism actually shows it saying Gods: "...and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods."

Encyclopedia of Mormonism : Compound Object Viewer

[Elohel]

latte,

I believe you are seeing the word "one" in just the numerical sense and in none other, which is all good and well for you, I guess. I do wish to tell you, though, that it has many other meanings within contexts. Scriptures are meant to be read by taking true principles taught by the spirit and transposed upon what is being read to infer the correct doctrines. Having a difference of opinion on what the nature of God is would cause you to see what you want to see. I could also see how this could work vise-versa for us as well.

Here's an interesting tidbit for you:

Just some research I did on the trinitarian view of John 10:30, John 11:52, John 17:11, 21, 22, Romans 12:4, 5.

There were some discussions about what this term meant on my mission, as I served around many Catholic areas. One of the scriptures I heard the most from the Bible to support Trinitarianism was John 10:30. Some time after I returned I looked up the meaning of the greek in Strong's concordance as well as verified it's authenticity in Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus.

The word was "heis".

This is what Thayer's Lexicon had to say about the use of the Greek word: "to be united most closely (in will, spirit)"

This is what Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words had to say on the use of the greek word: "(b) metaphorically, "union" and "concord," e.g., Jhn 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22; Rom 12:4, 5; Phl 1:27;"

So not only do modern prophets speak of Godhead as separate personages, but so does the Holy Bible! Even modern scholars of completely NO LDS affiliation agree that those terms in the earliest Greek we have in the Textus Receptus mean to be united in Spirit and Unity, not in body or with the literal "digital" sense.

[Justice]

Justice, the scripture you noted in John 17 I believe Jesus is talking about His desire for people who believe to be one with Him in unity, just as He and the Father are unified.

The scripture tries very hard to make a point.

John 17:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

You said you want a scripture that says explicitly that they are one in purpose.

Here it is.

"...that they may be one even as we are one."

This is the best definition in scripture of how the Father and Son are one. It is plainly teaching that.

Your argument is that they are one in more than one way, so this scripture doesn't apply.

Well, let's see the scripture that clearly states that the "one" is more than purpose. Show me a scripture that says they are one person; one body.

I have a scripture defining how they are one in purpose, it is your burden to show more. If you cannot, I have to go by the definition that's there.

[bytebear]

I said earlier that there are verses in the Book of Mormon that would seem to support a Trinitarian view--without someone inserting words into it such as: "one in purpose". Verses like:

Alma 11:44 "...every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil."

2 Nephi 31:21 "...And now, behold, this is hte doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

Bytebear, you said "They aren't separate Gods. They are one God." I found this quote from Joseph Smith and wanted to know what you thought of it.

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three gods." (Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith p.370)

The distinction is the lower case g. the lower case g in god implies a state of being, not a title. Three gods make up God. That is, three beings who are in a state of perfection, make up the Godhead which is not a single being. God is not a single being, but a collection of beings who are gods. Ultimately I believe all beings who are exaulted and become gods also become one with God, and therefore, all are God, truly making God infinite. (as to the encyclopedia of Mormonism, I believe that is an unofficial source, and as such, I consider the upper G on Gods to be a typo, particularly when the term comes from Joseph Smith's words, not his script. Regardless, the plurality of gods is about state of being, not of unity. When unified, gods become God.

Edited August 25, 2009 by bytebear

[lattelady]

Justice, I've already posted verses showing an example of Jesus being raised from the dead by the power of God--one God, in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I gave verses to show that each member of the Godhead was involved in raising Jesus from the dead. But I believe that scripture teaches that it was God who raised Him from the dead. What were your thoughts on that post?

[Elohel]

lattelady, I hope you read my post. The original Greek disagrees with your position.

[Misshalfway]

This conversation is really long and I certainly am coming to the party late, but I just want to validate that sometimes the BofM feels confusing at times on this doctrine. I think it is the same confusion one might feel while reading similar verses in the Bible.

I think that is why, Latte, that we LDS do rely on the First vision to clarify what these scriptures mean in terms of "oneness" and the nature of physical and spiritual Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We also rely on D&C scriptures to teach us about their bodies and missions.

If I might add, as I have tried to understand trying to understand the Trinity has been difficult for me as has some of these scriptures that Latte has shared. I think it is easy for all of us to get confused while trying to sort through all this.

(PS. I have not read the entire thread. I am just jumping in here, so forgive me if I am missing it.)

[Maureen]

The distinction is the lower case g. the lower case g in god implies a state of being, not a title. Three gods make up God.

But it appears that JS did not use the lower case g; the TPJS shows multiple times JS using the word Gods.

[Dr T]

I just wanted post #500 so there u go :)

[Guest]

Okay lattelady... you must not have read my post a while back. You must be LDS if... you believe that Joseph Smith SAW the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ standing side by side - both men looking just like mortal men. With that in mind - everything else in the Bible that touches on the Godhead becomes LITERALLY 3 persons - bodies and all!

That's the beauty of LDS - it simplifies the nature of God so that it is not the "Great Mystery" anymore!

Okay, here's a very simple parallel:

There's George Bush Sr., George Bush Jr., and Jeb Bush. ALL BUSH. But 3 different people in the BUSH family. What makes them NOT ONE BUSH is because George Bush Jr. is more liberal than George Bush Sr. and they don't agree on certain policies like taxes. Now, if they were completely singular in direction, principles, morality, and purpose - then they would be ONE BUSH. So, that, when Jeb Bush speaks - you don't have to wonder what George Bush Sr. and Jr. think about it.

Get it?

Okay now... your turn. Explain exactly what you mean by ONE GOD. One consciousness? One chemical composition? One what?

[Snow]

anatess - My apologies, I was being facetious in that post. Snow's theory at one point is that no one had ever taught that Heavenly Father worshiped a Heavenly Father.

Was it?

When you claimed several times that I had never said "widespread teaching" I gave you a half dozen posts were I had said EXACTLY that. Perhaps you can return the favor and point out where I said what you claim.

BTW... why haven't you answered my question about why you said that I hadn't said "widespread teaching" when in fact I had numerous times???

[Snow]

Snow, I can easily prove that God worships his God.

Jesus = God.

God the Father = God.

Jesus worships his Father.

Therefore God worships His God.

The pattern is there. I don't see why you are being so intent on annoying everyone with your incessant rant.

What did the Greeks call that?

Sophistry? :)

[Snow]

I said earlier that there are verses in the Book of Mormon that would seem to support a Trinitarian view--without someone inserting words into it such as: "one in purpose". Verses like:

Alma 11:44 "...every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil."

2 Nephi 31:21 "...And now, behold, this is hte doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

I am curious just how much you understand the Trinity???

The doctrine of the Trinity is NOT just 3 in 1, not by a country mile. That is but one part of a very complex formulation.

[Snow]

Bytebear, you said "They aren't separate Gods. They are one God." I found this quote from Joseph Smith and wanted to know what you thought of it.

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three gods." (Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith p.370)

That would make Joseph Smith's view line up nicely with the author the Torah, now wouldn't it?

Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image"

[Snow]

Lattelady,

Shall I assume that you are unable to support either of your two claims?

1. Theosis contradicts what Christ taught

2. The doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Bible

Please respond.

[Elohel]

Snow,

I think it's safe to say that we have been informed of the truth, therefore, we know that lattelady is unable to substantiate her claims of the trinity.

But we already knew this, didn't we?

Lattelady, I think that you might be the first person ever to try and prove the trinity to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints.

Just kidding.

[Justice]

Justice, I've already posted verses showing an example of Jesus being raised from the dead by the power of God--one God, in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). I gave verses to show that each member of the Godhead was involved in raising Jesus from the dead. But I believe that scripture teaches that it was God who raised Him from the dead. What were your thoughts on that post?

Oh geez, I have to back through this thread and find it.

Gimme some time, I'll get back to you.

[Gatorman]

BTW... why haven't you answered my question about why you said that I hadn't said "widespread teaching" when in fact I had numerous times???

No on your first question that I did not copy. On this second one, I did answer it, but, let me go ahead and give your ego a further boost it does not need.

I may have been mistaken. Snow, I may have made a mistake. You may have said widespread.

Is that good enough for you Master Snow. Can you drop it now?

[Justice]

1) God raised Jesus from the dead: Acts 4:10 " be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD--even by him doth this man stand here before you whole."

2) Jesus raised Jesus from the dead (because He is God)--John 2:19-21 "Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.' Then said the Jews, 'Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?' But He spake of the temple of His body."

Now these are interesting scriptures. I have 2 answers that could explain this.

First, many times in the scriptures Jesus or Jehova speaks in the first person for the Father, because He speaks for the Father and is one in will and mind with the Father. So, if in one instance He says "I raised myself up," He is following the Father's will, and in another He says "my Father raised me up," it is also logical because they are of one mind.

We don't really understand how "of one mind" they really are. Jesus has totally submitted His will to the Father's. When Prophet's speak they speak in the name of the Lord, and speak for Him so much that they are viewed as if the Lord said them Himself.

The other is that the Son did it under the direction of the Father, just like the creation of the heaven and earth. So, one did it but the other was responsible for it. Both were responsible.

3) The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, because He is God--Romans 8:11 "But if the SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

I'm not going to give you this one. It does not say Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, it says "the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead." That could be the Father or the Son, as they both have spirits that can be felt.

With the definition He gives in John 17, I can't understand this as describing a Trinity. I can see that these scriptures imply a very close one-ness that one acted under the direction of the other so both were rersponsible. In fact, that's not too far away from what you believe anyway. It's just I believe it describes a one-ness in mind and will and not body.

Besides, the answer has been given. We know the Father and the Son both appeared to Joseph Smith and made the distinction. They did so because of this Trinity belief. They had to prove to him that they are 2 separate beings.

[Maureen]

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed supported by scripture. Many of you will want scripture to come right out and say the right words for you to believe but you will be sadly disappointed. The Bible's many verses implies a tri-unity of the Godhead. The exact words you are looking for will not be there but that's part of having faith and being receptive to God's words. You can read and believe or read and not believe that is always our choice.

Biblical Support for the Trinity

Since the Trinity involves the key aspects of oneness and threeness, support for this doctrine will be dependent on the discovery of these two aspects in Scripture as it reveals how God exists.

Scriptures on the Oneness of God

Old Testament Scriptures

(1) Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!”

Verse 4 is subject to various translations, though the statement is likely stressing the uniqueness of Yahweh and should be translated, “The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.”

However, there is also a secondary emphasis—The Lord’s indivisibility. This is apparent in most English translations. This confession clearly prepares the way for the later revelation of the Trinity, but how? “God” (Elohim) is a plural word, and the word one (the Hebrew, echad) refers to one in a collective sense. As such, it is used of the union of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:24) to describe two persons in one flesh. Further, it is used in a collective sense, like one cluster of grapes rather than in an absolute sense as in Numbers 13:23 when the spies brought back a single cluster of grapes. Furthermore, the oneness of God is implied in those Old Testament passages that declare that there is no other God beside Yahweh, the God of Israel.

(2) Deuteronomy 4:35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.”

(3) Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.”

(4) Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.”

The New Testament is even more explicit:

(5) 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 “Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.”

(6) Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.”

(7) James 2:19 “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.”

Scriptures Demonstrating God, Who is One, is Also Three

Old Testament Scriptures

While there is no explicit statement in the Old Testament affirming the Triunity, we can confidently say that the Old Testament not only allows for the Triunity, but also implies that God is a triune Being in a number of ways:

(1) The name Elohim, translated God, is the plural form of El. While this is what is called a plural of plenitude pointing to the power and majesty of God, it certainly allows for the New Testament revelation of the Triunity of God.

(2) There are many instances where God uses the plural pronoun to describe Himself (see Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8).

(3) In the creation account, both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are seen in the work of creation. It is stated that God created heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1), but that it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the earth to infuse it with life in the sense of protecting and participating in the work of creation (Gen. 1:2).

(4) Writing about the Messiah, Isaiah reveals Him to be equal with God, calling Him the “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father” (Isa. 9:6).

(5) Several passages reveal a distinction of Persons within the Godhead.

In Psalm 110:1, David demonstrates there is a distinction of Persons between “LORD,” the one speaking, and the one addressed called by David, “my Lord.” David was indicating the Messiah was no ordinary king, but his own Lord, Adoni (my Lord), one who was God Himself. So God the first Person addresses God the second Person. This is precisely Peter’s point when He quotes this Psalm to show the resurrection of the Messiah was anticipated in the Old Testament.

The Redeemer (who must be divine, Isa. 7:14; 9:6) is distinguished from the Lord (Isa. 59:20).

The Lord is distinguished from the Lord in Hosea 1:6-7. The one speaking here is Yahweh, the Lord, yet, note the statement in verse 7, “I will have compassion … and deliver them by the Lord their God.”

The Spirit is distinguished from the Lord in a number of passages (Isa. 48:16; 59:21; 63:9-10).

(6) In the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, God made it clear that the One who would be born of the virgin would also be Immanuel, God with us.

(7) Two other passages which imply the Trinity are Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1. In Isaiah 48:16 all three Persons are mentioned and yet seen as distinct from each other. See also Gen. 22:15-16.

New Testament Scriptures

The case for the Triunity of God is even stronger in the New Testament. Here it can be unequivocally demonstrated the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Furthermore, the New Testament teaches us that these three names are not synonymous, but speak of three distinct and equal Persons.

(1) The Father is called God (John 6:27; 20:17; 1 Cor. 8:6; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 2:11; 1 Pet. 1:2).

(2) Jesus Christ, the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col. 1:17; creation, Col. 1:16, John 1:3; and future judgment, John 5:27), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20; omnipotence, Heb. 1:3; omniscience, Matt. 9:4), and by explicit statements declaring His deity (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).

(3) The Holy Spirit is recognized as God. By comparing Peter’s comments in Acts 5:3 and 4, we see that in lying to the Holy Spirit (vs. 3), Ananias was lying to God (vs. 4). He has the attributes which only God can possess like omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10) and omnipresence (1 Cor. 6:19), and He regenerates people to new life (John 3:5-6, 8; Tit. 3:5), which must of necessity be a work of God for only God has the power of life. Finally, His deity is evident by the divine names used for the Spirit as “the Spirit of our God,” (1 Cor. 6:11), which should be understood as “the Spirit, who is our God.”

Ryrie writes: “Matthew 28:19 best states both the oneness and threeness by associating equally the three Persons and uniting them in one singular name. Other passages like Matthew 3:16-17 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 associate equally the three Persons but do not contain the strong emphasis on unity as does Matthew 28:19.”18

The New Bible Dictionary, adds to this the following evidence:

The evidence of the NT writings, apart from the Gospels, is sufficient to show that Christ had instructed his disciples on this doctrine to a greater extent than is recorded by any of the four Evangelists. They whole-heartedly proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity as the threefold source of redemption. The outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost brought the personality of the Spirit into greater prominence and at the same time shed light anew from the Spirit upon the Son. Peter, in explaining the phenomenon of Pentecost, represents it as the activity of the Trinity: ‘This Jesus … being … exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear’ (Acts 2:32-33). So the church of Pentecost was founded on the doctrine of the Trinity.

In 1 Cor. there is mention of the gifts of the Spirit, the varieties of service for the same Lord and the inspiration of the same God for the work (1 Cor. 12:4-6).

Peter traces salvation to the same triunal source: ‘destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ’ (1 Pet. 1:2). The apostolic benediction: ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14), not only sums up the apostolic teaching, but interprets the deeper meaning of the Trinity in Christian experience, the saving grace of the Son giving access to the love of the Father and to the communion of the Spirit.

What is amazing, however, is that this confession of God as One in Three took place without struggle and without controversy by a people indoctrinated for centuries in the faith of the one God, and that in entering the Christian church they were not conscious of any break with their ancient faith.19

From the above evidence, it should be clear that the Scripture teaches God is one and three.

The Trinity (Triunity) of God | Bible.org

M.

[Snow]

No on your first question that I did not copy. On this second one, I did answer it, but, let me go ahead and give your ego a further boost it does not need.

I may have been mistaken. Snow, I may have made a mistake. You may have said widespread.

Is that good enough for you Master Snow. Can you drop it now?

Uh, forgive me if you already addressed it... but to be clear: It is not that you MAY have been mistaken. You WERE mistaken... x6.

Now, to the matter of whether I said, as you claim that it was never taught. It could be. I sometimes make such mistakes when posting but I typically am careful on such matters... of course I understand that renegades and nuts say all sorts of things, sometimes even when they are supposed to be teaching, like seminary or something. I wouldn't even be surprised if some over zealous early Church leaders thought it and told others about it. If you do come across a post of mine that definitively rules out such possibilities, I'd be happy to correct it... but I doubt you'll find I said what you claim I did.

[Snow]

Mainstream Christianity teaches that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed supported by scripture. Many of you will want scripture to come right out and say the right words for you to believe but you will be sadly disappointed. The Bible's many verses implies a tri-unity of the Godhead. The exact words you are looking for will not be there but that's part of having faith and being receptive to God's words. You can read and believe or read and not believe that is always our choice....

Ah Maureen,

That is not the Trinity. That is but one component of the Trinity. It is the same component that is in The Church of Jesus Christ's Godhead.

That is - of course - you are preaching to the choir.

However, if you want to impress anyone, please post the crucial and relevant scriptures that demonstrate co-equal consubstantiality. Oh, and for bonus points, can you also post the relevant scriptures that disprove co-equality?

[Maureen]

Ah Maureen,

That is not the Trinity. That is but one component of the Trinity. It is the same component that is in The Church of Jesus Christ's Godhead.

That is - of course - you are preaching to the choir.

However, if you want to impress anyone, please post the crucial and relevant scriptures that demonstrate co-equal consubstantiality. Oh, and for bonus points, can you also post the relevant scriptures that disprove co-equality?

I'll leave that to you Snow, since only you know what you're looking for.

M.

[Kawazu]

DOCTRINAL STUDY: WEEK #1

WHAT WE TEACH

The Doctrinal Statement of Faith Bible Church

(Adopted September 12, 1999)

God the Son

We teach that Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, possesses all the divine excellencies, and in

these He is co-equal, consubstantial, and co-eternal with the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

We teach that God the Father created according to His own will, through His Son, Jesus Christ, by whom

all things continue in existence and in operation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:2).

We teach that in the incarnation (God becoming man) Christ surrendered only the prerogatives of deity

but nothing of the divine essence, either in degree or kind. In His incarnation, the eternally existing Son

accepted all the essential characteristics of humanity, taking on an existence appropriate to a servant,

while never divesting Himself of His divine attributes, thus becoming the God-man (Philippians 2:5-8;

Colossians 2:9).

We teach that Jesus Christ represents humanity and deity in indivisible oneness (Micah 5:2; John 5:23;

14:9-10; Colossians 2:9).

We teach that our Lord Jesus Christ was virgin born (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23, 25; Luke 1:26-35); that

He was God incarnate (John 1:1,14); and that the purpose of the incarnation was to reveal God, redeem

men, and rule over God's kingdom (Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:29; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews

7:25-26; 1 Peter 1:18-19).

We teach that our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through the shedding of His blood and

sacrificial death on the cross and that His death was voluntary, vicarious, substitutionary, propitiatory,

and redemptive (John 10:15; Romans 3:24-25; 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24).

We teach that on the basis of the efficacy of the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, the believing sinner is

freed from the punishment, the penalty, the power, and one day the very presence of sin; and that he is

declared righteous, given eternal life, and adopted into the family of God (Romans 3:25; 5:8-9; 2

Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18).

We teach that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead and that He

has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He now mediates as our Advocate and High Priest

(Matthew 28:6; Luke 24:38-39; Acts 2:30-31; Romans 4:25; 8:34; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24; 1 John 2:1).

We teach that in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave, God confirmed the deity of His Son and

gave proof that God has accepted the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Jesus' bodily resurrection is

also the guarantee of a future resurrection life for all believers (John 5:26-29; 14:19; Romans 1:4; 4:25;

6:5—10; 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23).

We teach that Jesus Christ will return to receive the church, which is His body, unto Himself at the

Rapture and, returning with His church in glory, will establish His millennial kingdom on earth (Acts

1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20).

We teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is the one through whom God will judge all mankind (John 5:22-23):

a. Believers (1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10)

b. Living inhabitants of the earth at His glorious return (Matthew 25:31-46)

c. Unbelieving dead at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15)

As the mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), the head of His body the church (Ephesians 1:22;

5:23; Colossians 1:18), and the coming universal King who will reign on the throne of David (Isaiah 9:6;

Luke 1:31-33), He is the final judge of all who fail to place their trust in Him as Lord and Savior

(Matthew 25:14-46; Acts 17:30-31).

According to some Trinitarians, passages in John talk about the whole co-equality thing...

[lattelady]

Anatess,

You said that the beauty of LDS is that it simplifies the "great mystery" of God. I'm not necessarily seeking to simplify Him. I know He cannot be simplified. He's God! The Bible teaches that He's beyond my understanding. The great mystery of Him, of the three in one is just as beautiful to me as the simplified version is to you. Your illustration of the three Bush men might help you understand God as YOU see Him, but it doesn't do God justice as I view Him as taught Biblically. The three Bush's cannot read one another's minds--they have no idea what one another is thinking. The three persons of the Godhead are ONE in every aspect, yet three. You asked me to explain what that meant (substance, form...what?)--it means they are One God in three persons. I already explained it as far as my human mind can comprehend it: God the Father, who is spirit; Jesus, who is also God, but became man when he was born of a virgin; and the Holy Spirit who is God but obviously Spirit and dwells inside the believer. They each have different roles, but they are all one God. I don't know how that is, but it is. I believe that scripture teaches it. My faith allows me to believe what my mind can't fully comprehend and my eyes can't see.