Why am i a liberal l.d.s?

[MrsAri]

Why don't you stop shouting? Your use of bold and large type in no way means that what you are saying is more important than anyone elses.

Someone shouting shows to me that they might be incapable of acually carrying on a rational conversation or that they could care less what anyone else says as theirs is the only opinion they care about.

Hey, I like it! I don't have to squint.

[mnn727]

Hey, I like it! I don't have to squint.

Perhaps youi should change your screen settings, its easy to do, ask if you want help doing so.

[Guest Godless]

Thou shalt not kill.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Just_A_Guy]

If you were then how many of the people who die each year did you help?

Let's tone down the histrionics. The fact that no one helped the dead does not mean there were not plenty of living people who were helped.

I don't think there are many who object to such infrastructure projects as you mention (though they may prefer that some of these be handled by state, as opposed to federal, governments). Most don't even object to Medicare/Medicaid, in principle.

What we object to is government trying to do things which are more efficiently done in a free market (and make no mistake, a "free market" is not what we currently have with respect to health care), government's stripping people of the incentive to take care of themselves, and government's ultimately holding the power of life or death over every individual in the country.

He has never stinted in His love for us but we sadly stint in our love for our fellow man.

Physician, heal thyself.

I am not talking about money here. I am talking about love of your fellow man.

How does envy figure into this "love"?

[bytor2112]

Health care is only one of many issues. I have never seen so many people moan and groan about government spending yet everyone of you use the highways and the many other government provided benefits we enjoy in this country.

You don't understand economics very well do you? People are moaning and groaning over WASTEFUL spending. The money that is spent has to be paid back.......the debt ceiling is currently $13 trillion dollars. As the debt rises the value of the dollar falls and the cost of goods and services increases (inflation). Ever considered that if the government didn't TAKE so much of our hard earned money that things like health insurance might be more affordable? Or that if you were allowed to shop for health insurance across state lines the cost would be reduced. For those who could never afford it under any circumstances, there are better options than a government run mess. How about Medicaid...it is state run. Why not allow greater access on a state level to medicaid?

Some refuse to send their kids to public schools but even you benefit from the tax dollars that go to education.

That's because some public schools stink.

When your house is on fire who do you call? What water do you use? When you get robbed who do you call?

Local and state taxes.

When you need medical care who do you go to? How many of these people were helped in their education one way or other by our government?

I go to my doctor and I pay for health insurance. I am fairly certain that my Dr. pays a great deal more than the average in taxes in addition to the two hundred thousand dollars of student loans.

How can people be so blind and so self centered to not care about anyone but their own selves and their dollars.

Rather judgmental aren't you. Your post suggests a self righteous desire to strike out at anyone that doesn't think the solution to social woes is a government program. So anyone that is opposed to your belief is just greedy and un Christ like? Nice. How long should Americans be required to work to service the US debt. Currently projections are that we work until August before the money we earn is actually ours. You will likely get your wish. America will have another messy program that it can't afford.....like medicare and social security. People like you will continue to cry out for more and feel entitled to the efforts and hard work of others.

Edited September 12, 2009 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

Why don't you stop shouting? Your use of bold and large type in no way means that what you are saying is more important than anyone elses.

Someone shouting shows to me that they might be incapable of acually carrying on a rational conversation or that they could care less what anyone else says as theirs is the only opinion they care about.

Maybe he just likes the way the font looks

[Guest]

Oddly enough, I know of people who would like to apply the platform you have outlined in order to restore the true meaning of the word 'conservative'. Language is a tough battle. If the 'libertarian' brand carries too much baggage for you, you can always opt for 'independent' as a descriptor... Or you can really throw people through a loop with a lesser-known affiliation such as 'minarchist' or, 'voluntaryist'. It is really a matter of preference.

No Kawazu, "Conservative" by definition means that the society supercedes the individual - that's why conservatives are against gay marriage - because it is against the tradition of society. That's the exact opposite of liberal.

Hey, I don't need a word to affiliate with, yes? I just need to pick and choose which candidates closely resemble my own principles. Currently, they're all on the conservative side of the aisle. Which is sad - that means conservatives are now liberal except for moral issues... So, we are on the brink of a uni-party with 2 flavors! The liberal and the liberal-whacko (gasp! I used a Limbaugh term!).

[annewandering]

If we talk about how to solve the problems then that is great. In fact it is what is needed. Government waste is caused by what? I think it is caused by people just wanting to get cuts of the pie and not really wanting to solve the problems. What do you think it is caused by?

I understand economic issues just fine.

If the states and local governments would do their job then maybe that is a good solution to many waste problems. On the other hand if you consider this: Walmart competing against Kings. Ok Kings is a small chain. Walmart is huge. Kings gets the best deals they can find for the products they carry. Walmart does the same. Walmart being big can create its deals because of its buying power. Kings has to hope they can find good deals that are offered. The point being that sometimes there are more economic measures available due to larger size.

Health care may be one of these or it may not be. Seeing how medicaid varies so much from state to state makes me think there has to be at least larger picture guidelines.

The thing is that we have to be flexible and talk it out with people. If we do want the same things then working together is the only way they can come about. This is something that I greatly admire about Obama. He wants input from everyone. He is willing to compromise. Nothing can be done if no one else is. If you want him to have it be done by the states then let him know that in a reasonable dialog. Show him how it can be done.

Maybe you are right and he is not truthful. (you meaning the people who distrust Obama so much) How can we know if we don't try?

If we truly want things to be better for everyone then we can work together to get it done. What do you think?

[Palerider]

Why don't you stop shouting? Your use of bold and large type in no way means that what you are saying is more important than anyone elses.

Someone shouting shows to me that they might be incapable of acually carrying on a rational conversation or that they could care less what anyone else says as theirs is the only opinion they care about.

If you read the rules...you will find out I have broken none....I have used bold almost since I have been here....eat some ice cream and chill....:)

[skippy740]

You know what? Tell me how much I care where the money comes from when I am bleeding to death because I couldnt get treatment for a problem that took less than 15 minutes to take care of when two doctors nearly had a heart attack themselves when they saw I was nearly out of blood from a CHRONIC health problem that had gone untreated for 20 years despite other doctors knowing about it. Out of blood means down to 4 on the scale.

What is wrong with us that we have to be FORCED to help people who are destitute and dying? Don't tell me that you would help in a charitable way. If you were then how many of the people who die each year did you help? I can tell you right now. None.

Health care is only one of many issues. I have never seen so many people moan and groan about government spending yet everyone of you use the highways and the many other government provided benefits we enjoy in this country.

Some refuse to send their kids to public schools but even you benefit from the tax dollars that go to education. When your house is on fire who do you call? What water do you use? When you get robbed who do you call?

When you need medical care who do you go to? How many of these people were helped in their education one way or other by our government?

How can people be so blind and so self centered to not care about anyone but their own selves and their dollars. No wonder Christ said it was easier for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Yes you are rich. Even I am rich compared to the people of his time. We are so caught up in our lives and our own troubles we just dont want to see outside our walls.

Yes I am a liberal. God said He would give liberally and upbraideth not. He has never stinted in His love for us but we sadly stint in our love for our fellow man.

Teach a man to fish and he will not go hungry. Well it sounds good but while you do it he starves to death because he has no pole.

Forced charity is not good but no charity at all is terrible and will not put anyone in the Celestial Kingdom. I am not talking about money here. I am talking about love of your fellow man.

Aren't highways funded by state dollars? (pardon my personal ignorance on this subject if it is with Federal dollars.)

Here's the problem: The things that you are comparing health care to affect entire communities when they aren't done in a unified fashion. A fire in a neighborhood can spread and affect other homes and lives. Robbery is a crime and can affect property and safety. Having running water helps all of society.

Education? Unfortunately, I see it as a learning day-care center so families can continue to have dual-income earners and live at a higher lifestyle. Here in California, our educational system just flat out sucks. High drop out rates, low test scores all show that our STATE-RUN educational system isn't working as it is.

What is being proposed in health care is trying to preserve someone's financial means by sharing the costs with the masses - administered by the government. People want to get care, but they don't want to pay for it. They want someone else to pay for it.

Sounds like life insurance to me. Everybody wants the benefits, but no one wants to pay for it. The premium is the SOLUTION to the problem. It isn't the problem itself. Did you know we have national life insurance? It's only $255 from Social Security. Oh, it isn't enough? Sorry, you need to buy it yourself.

HEALTH CARE is an INDIVIDUAL responsibility. If one did not prepare well, then it affects that person and their immediate family.

If someone gets so sick that it causes bankruptcy, then one should've prepared better.

When I need medical care, I go to a doctor. I have medical insurance and I pay a co-pay.

People are turning their WANTS into GOVERNMENT SPENDING NEEDS. And THAT is a problem.

Now, I have issues regarding the issuance of health insurance and pre-existing conditions... that needs to be worked out... but I don't know how. Perhaps there needs to be a government plan ONLY for these people? But then these people would still be the biggest drain on the resources and we'll still have the same problem.

It's not about the money alone. It's where the money is being funneled TO and WHO is administring our funds in what way.

[john doe]

You know what? Tell me how much I care where the money comes from when I am bleeding to death because I couldnt get treatment for a problem that took less than 15 minutes to take care of when two doctors nearly had a heart attack themselves when they saw I was nearly out of blood from a CHRONIC health problem that had gone untreated for 20 years despite other doctors knowing about it. Out of blood means down to 4 on the scale.

Sounds like you had some crappy doctors.

What is wrong with us that we have to be FORCED to help people who are destitute and dying? Don't tell me that you would help in a charitable way. If you were then how many of the people who die each year did you help? I can tell you right now. None.

Call for references. How do you know what any of us, let alone all of us, have been doing to help our fellow man?

Health care is only one of many issues. I have never seen so many people moan and groan about government spending yet everyone of you use the highways and the many other government provided benefits we enjoy in this country.

Some refuse to send their kids to public schools but even you benefit from the tax dollars that go to education. When your house is on fire who do you call? What water do you use? When you get robbed who do you call?

When you need medical care who do you go to? How many of these people were helped in their education one way or other by our government?

My statement still stands. Find a way to fund healthcare that is revenue-neutral and you will find most of the oppostion fade away. What do you propose we cut to fund this? The latest numbers I have seen put the deficit on this line alone at 100 billion/year. And be realistic in your recommendation.

How can people be so blind and so self centered to not care about anyone but their own selves and their dollars. No wonder Christ said it was easier for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Yes you are rich. Even I am rich compared to the people of his time. We are so caught up in our lives and our own troubles we just dont want to see outside our walls.

I'm not rich by any measure of US prosperity, but I do believe in personal responsibility as well. We each have a responsibility to do as much for ourselves as possible, be it spiritually or physically.

Yes I am a liberal. God said He would give liberally and upbraideth not. He has never stinted in His love for us but we sadly stint in our love for our fellow man.

Teach a man to fish and he will not go hungry. Well it sounds good but while you do it he starves to death because he has no pole.

I'm not against offering a loan to help him get on his feet to buy a pole. But he still has a responsibility to learn to fish.

Forced charity is not good but no charity at all is terrible and will not put anyone in the Celestial Kingdom. I am not talking about money here. I am talking about love of your fellow man.

If the government takes all my resources or dictates where it is all spent, then there is no opportunity for me to show charity. Tell me, will the government make it to the Celestial Kingdom if they take my resources and give it to those they choose to receive it?

[annewandering]

To me its all the same. Local, state and federal, but it is obvious some areas are better handled in different levels of government.

Public schools are a disaster especially in highly populated areas. What would be the solution though? California sure doesn't have the answer. We moved out of there to Idaho and one reason was education.

Charter schools might help. Depending on the school. Having a charter school to cater to the gay community is not a solution. Schools that cater to different academic needs might be however. I am not sold on the idea but it has potential. Private schools could be good but have you priced them lately? I was curious the other day and I was shocked. How families afford them is beyond me.

Education does benefit everyone so it is something that has to be addressed.

I totally disagree with you that health care is a want. Unless you consider being alive and healthy just a want. We should be ashamed of ourselves for not making sure everyone has health care available. Subsidizing insurance companies seems to be a less than bright idea to me however. Its the customers that need the help not the insurance companies. Requiring everyone have insurance or be fined seems like a backward way of looking at it. If people have the money then they could afford to have insurance or be able to pay for health care. It's the people who don't that need the help. If they cant afford insurance then how is fining them up to $3k going to help them? Or us?

Consider this. I had no insurance. We had only SS for income. My husbands not mine. Because I had a chronic problem that could have been treated easily and not all that expensive. About 10k total. But way out of my budget. Now I have medical problems that are expensive and will last till I die as a result of not being treated till way late. Because the problems are disabling I am now eligible for insurance and the government, ie; you will pay for my medical bills till I die and my family lives a long time. With a health care plan I would not be in this situation. And no one would be paying on going medical bills.

This is the kind of thing that has to change. It is stupid and self defeating.

Insurance companies have gotten away with so much in the past. Cutting people off when they finally need the insurance. Raising premiums to be completely unaffordable at the first sign the customers need the insurance. Not insuring anyone that might be a risk.

I am not in favor of just doling out money for anything let alone health care. I am in favor of finding solutions. Sometimes the solutions are hard but so long as they are fair and smart then we can work it out. Smart being dont pay out thousands of dollars for a heart transplant to someone 80 years old. Unless everyone else has been taken care of.

Anyway going to let this go I think. Have a great day.

[annewandering]

oh pft. I just got through with a long post rseponding to you johndoe. lol in fact I do have a long list of things that can be done to save money on health care but going to have to do them later..

I did want to say I do agree with you on almost everything you have said.

Responsibility is crucial.

[Snow]

You know what? Tell me how much I care where the money comes from when I am bleeding to death because I couldnt get treatment for a problem that took less than 15 minutes to take care of when two doctors nearly had a heart attack themselves when they saw I was nearly out of blood from a CHRONIC health problem that had gone untreated for 20 years despite other doctors knowing about it. Out of blood means down to 4 on the scale.

You were chronically bleeding to death for 20 years, your doctors knew about it and could have fixed it in 15 minutes, and didn't.

I don't believe it.

[MrsAri]

That doesn't answer my question.

Yes, it does.

[MrsAri]

Perhaps youi should change your screen settings, its easy to do, ask if you want help doing so.

Who, me?

[Just_A_Guy]

This is something that I greatly admire about Obama. He wants input from everyone. He is willing to compromise. Nothing can be done if no one else is. If you want him to have it be done by the states then let him know that in a reasonable dialog. Show him how it can be done.

Maybe you are right and he is not truthful. (you meaning the people who distrust Obama so much) How can we know if we don't try?

Anne, do you know how long it had been--prior to Wilson's lamentable outburst--that the President had heard two words spoken together from a House Republican over the issue of health care reform?

Five months. Five months. He has refused to meet with the opposition over this matter. In fact, he had hoped to have this whole thing done before the August recess. There was never any intent of having Republican input on health care reform.

Moreover, the President has repeated this mantra that the Republicans have no plan. That is demonstrably untrue.

Can we put this myth of Obama's bipartisanship to bed now?

Edited September 12, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

To me its all the same. Local, state and federal, but it is obvious some areas are better handled in different levels of government.

No it's not all the same. Local taxes serve your community, state taxes serve your state and federal taxes are typically unfair and wasted by ignorant politicians.

Public schools are a disaster especially in highly populated areas. What would be the solution though? California sure doesn't have the answer. We moved out of there to Idaho and one reason was education.

Charter schools might help. Depending on the school. Having a charter school to cater to the gay community is not a solution. Schools that cater to different academic needs might be however. I am not sold on the idea but it has potential.

My kids attended charter schools....excellent. No Teacher's Union involvement. Sorry teachers get fired and discipline is strictly enforced or the student is asked not to return and parental involvement is typically a requirement of attendance.

California is a mess and America seems to be heading down that same road. Why would you expect the schools to be any better??

Private schools could be good but have you priced them lately? I was curious the other day and I was shocked. How families afford them is beyond me.

Parents make sacrifices....no HBO, no cell phone. I find it fascinating that private schools and charter schools tend to succeed when PUBLIC options tend to fail.....(NEA is the worm in that apple).

We should be ashamed of ourselves for not making sure everyone has health care available.

Health care is available. What you want is FREE healthcare. (translate: paid for by someone else)

Subsidizing insurance companies seems to be a less than bright idea to me however. Its the customers that need the help not the insurance companies.

If you are referring to AIG...that's a completely different issue. BIG insurance companies as you say should?????? Give coverage away and lose money and then stop paying claims and then go out of business and then shaft policy holders and stock owners?

Requiring everyone have insurance or be fined seems like a backward way of looking at it. If people have the money then they could afford to have insurance or be able to pay for health care. It's the people who don't that need the help. If they cant afford insurance then how is fining them up to $3k going to help them? Or us?

Ahh...that is one of the brilliant Democrats idea. Talking about government intrusion and over reaching. I wonder how many people don't have health insurance, but have cable TV, cell phones new cars, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, own boats or whatever. I know people who won't take employer insurance because they would have to pay some of the premium....yet they own and do some of the things I listed.

Consider this. I had no insurance. We had only SS for income. My husbands not mine. Because I had a chronic problem that could have been treated easily and not all that expensive. About 10k total. But way out of my budget. Now I have medical problems that are expensive and will last till I die as a result of not being treated till way late. Because the problems are disabling I am now eligible for insurance and the government, ie; you will pay for my medical bills till I die and my family lives a long time. With a health care plan I would not be in this situation. And no one would be paying on going medical bills.

This is the kind of thing that has to change. It is stupid and self defeating.

Sounds a bit hard to believe. My mother is 62 and needed back surgery. Vocational Rehab paid for her surgery and physical therapy....about $60k.

Smart being dont pay out thousands of dollars for a heart transplant to someone 80 years old. Unless everyone else has been taken care of.

So you are ok with playing god??? Why is the life of an 80 year old less valuable than someone younger? What criteria do you base that on? Of course that is a BIG fear of what will happen if we end up with a government run program

[mnn727]

If you read the rules...you will find out I have broken none....I have used bold almost since I have been here....eat some ice cream and chill....:)

You've broken all rules of courtesy, and you're font is annoying to people that post on multiple message boards and actually know and follow the 'common rules of message boards'-- how you ever became a "head moderator" is beyond me. Unfortunatly since you are, I can't even put you on ignore. Edited September 12, 2009 by mnn727

[bytor2112]

You've broken all rules of courtesy, and you're font is annoying to people that post on multiple message boards and actually know and follow the 'common rules of message boards'-- how you ever became a "head moderator" is beyond me.

Where are these "rules" of courtesy???? I post on multiple message boards and I have yet to hear anyone whine about bold or larger fonts.......and I'm not annoyed at all....kind of wrecks your assertion doesn't it? Really....you should lighten up. Life is way too short.

[mnn727]

Couple of real funny guys on this board

[annewandering]

ou were chronically bleeding to death for 20 years, your doctors knew about it and could have fixed it in 15 minutes, and didn't.

I don't believe it.

Want me to give you references?

Dr. De Temple is the one who called Dr. Cannon another doctor while I was on the examining table. The original diagnosis was at the UCMCSD. (Unversity of Calfornia Medical Center San Diego. It was about 1986. My memory is pretty bad anymore, most likely due to extended anemia, so don't remember the exact year. Want the video as well? Dr Cannon was so shocked he took a video to show the other doctors at the hospital.

Edited September 12, 2009 by john doe
fixed quote function

[Palerider]

You've broken all rules of courtesy, and you're font is annoying to people that post on multiple message boards and actually know and follow the 'common rules of message boards'-- how you ever became a "head moderator" is beyond me. Unfortunatly since you are, I can't even put you on ignore.

you have just broken another rule...perhaps you should go and read them...:)

[mnn727]

you have just broken another rule...perhaps you should go and read them...:)

There was a reason I don't post here much - time to go back to the more professional boards.

[annewandering]

Bytor what insurance did your mom have to pay for that medical bill? And are you also calling me a liar? For some reason I find that offensive that two people on here have called me a liar with no cause except they ,apparently, don't admit that it could be possible.