Celestial Kingdom

[Just_A_Guy]

[parody]

I tend to be much more logical. If Swedenborg wrote about it before Joseph Smith, it's logical that whoever wrote the Book of Mormon "borrowed" this concept from Swedenborg (for the record I don't believe Joseph Smith wrote it).

I tend to be much more logical. If Hillel wrote about it before Jesus of Nazareth, it's logical to assume that whoever wrote the Bible "borrowed" this concept from Hillel (for the record I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth wrote it).

Logic would dictate that Joseph Smith knew of this (Joseph Smith was the editor of the Elders Journal that published his obituary) and borrowed the boy's story.

Logic would dictate that Jesus of Nazareth knew of Hillel and borrowed the man's teaching.

Using logic, I hardly see either as an accident, or coincidence, but rather further proof that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, but believed in magic and other people's visions. 2 cents...

Using logic, I hardly see this as an accident or coincidence, but rather further proof that Jesus of Nazareth was not a prophet of God, but believed in other rabbis' teachings.

[/parody]

[Lorenzo]

Are "YOUR REALLY SURE" this is how it works - creation of spirit children by spirit parents?

(If you have evidence to the contrary, you shouldn't keep it secret.)

In this world of constant change and uncertainty, who, really, can be "really sure" of anything. Yet, if one were to hold to the iron rod of truth as presented represented by the Lord's Anointed of these latter days, then one is safe in feeling more confident in that belief than people outside the Gospel who have no prophet or apostles to guide them.(*)

Spiritual Conception and Birth in the heavens are

as Natural - and the Same -

as Physical Conception and Birth on the earth

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p.115.

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" Apostle Bruce R. McConie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47.

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" ibid., p.742.

"Will the resurrection return you a mere female acquaintance that is not to be the wife of your bosom in eternity? No; God forbid; but it will restore you the wife of your bosom, immortalized, who shall bear children from your own loins in all the worlds to come, and that without pain or sorrow in travail. This, sir, was couched in the promise of Abraham; this makes the promise great." Apostolic Historian B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, p.276.

“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters…each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world… where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones…. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited…If we admit that one personage was the Father of all this great family and that they were all born of the same Mother, the period of time intervening between the birth of the oldest and the youngest spirit must have been immense. If we suppose, as an average, that only one year intervened between each birth, then it would have required over one hundred thousand million of years for the same Mother to have given birth to this vast family…

Therefore, a Father… could increase his kingdoms with his own children, in a hundred fold ratio above that of another who had only secured to himself one wife. As yet, we have only spoken of the hundred fold ratio as applied to his own children; but now let us endeavor to form some faint idea of the multiplied increase of worlds peopled by his grandchildren, over which he, of course, would hold authority and dominion as the Grand Patriarch of the endless generations of his posterity. …the one-hundredth generation would people more worlds than could be expressed by raising one million to the ninety-ninth power.” Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, March 1853, pp. 37-39

However, if anyone else wants to be "really sure" how the Lord manages his generations and eternal lives, they should feel free to ask him personally. Perhaps to please them, he will give them an answer more in keeping with their personal predispositions and private preferences, than he has given through his anointed prophets, seers, revelators and apostles.

* “Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947,

“ ‘When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24.)”

Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, Address to Church Educational System teachers, Aug. 16, 1985.

“Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.” D&C 121:16

[cougarfan]

Wow, I have been duped. Thank you so much for enlightening me with detail that I have never heard. I will resign immediately.

Oh, could you provide some sources from someone other than an D.Michael Quinn......he was excommunicated for being an apostate and since his works have largely been discredited, I would rather bet my Eternal salvation on sources a bit more reliable than an avowed homosexual and ex member of the church.

Interesting come back. Attack the messenger, label him an apostate and homosexual and then you don't have to process the information. I didn't realize gay people were unreliable.

Quinn was ex'ed because he didn't show up for his "court of love." Elder Packer (as you may recall) had already directed the Stake Prez to ex him (Elder Oaks let slip that little bit of info).... the verdict was decided beforehand.

So, I guess now Thews can give you the same information from sources other than Quinn.

[bytor2112]

Interesting come back. Attack the messenger, label him an apostate and homosexual and then you don't have to process the information. I didn't realize gay people were unreliable.

Quinn was ex'ed because he didn't show up for his "court of love." Elder Packer (as you may recall) had already directed the Stake Prez to ex him (Elder Oaks let slip that little bit of info).... the verdict was decided beforehand.

So, I guess now Thews can give you the same information from sources other than Quinn.

D. Quinn was excommunicated because he was an apostate.....whether he showed up or not he would have got the boot. I didn't label him, the church did and much has been written that discredits his works....look it up.

Being homosexual doesn't detract from reliability, but, maybe the fact that the church you are a member of teaches that homosexuality is a grave sin might color your subjectivity.

The broader point is that rather than presenting information that has an obvious bias and will certainly be less than joyously received by the faithful LDS, why not present something other than tired and worn out arguments from people with axes to grind.

Edited September 23, 2009 by bytor2112

[Lorenzo]

Interesting come back. Attack the messenger, label him an apostate and homosexual and then you don't have to process the information. I didn't realize gay people were unreliable.

Quinn was ex'ed because he didn't show up for his "court of love." Elder Packer (as you may recall) had already directed the Stake Prez to ex him (Elder Oaks let slip that little bit of info).... the verdict was decided beforehand.

So, I guess now Thews can give you the same information from sources other than Quinn.

Are you an apostate, Cougarfan? I see your religion on your profile says LDS Mormon Christian. So I figured you weren't an apostate. If I had a millstone for every apostate I've had to deal with ... well, I'd be the one sunk to the bottom of the sea. I wouldn't want to hold on to very many of those at once. If you are an apostate, I suppose someone offended you; you shouldn't judge the church by just some of it's people. Or maybe you weren't paying tithing. A lot of people apostate after not paying tithing. Some leave because they stop reading the Book of Mormon. Many leave after they start listening to critics of the church, or start reading books and websites that analyze the church's doctrines and try to prove them false. I even know a couple of people who have left because, they said, what they found out about the history of the church. If any of these apply to you, I want you to know that if you will return, you will enjoy the peace and love you once knew. All your questions can be answered. Even on this forum, everyone has a good spirit and is willing to help, to explain the doctrines. Sometimes it's hard to listen to some questions (read them), because they sound critical and accusing. But if you ask in good faith, we will try to answer. If the answer isn't enough, ask for more detail, or for sources, or whatever it is will help you know the doctrines you have questions about. There are not just things criticial about the church on the internet. You can find the actual words of all the modern prophets, and the apostles, and a lot more. So stick in here, and keep reading. I think you will be blessed. Don't forget to pray for more knowledge and light, and it will come your way. (I know I'm not speaking for everyone, just for myself, but I hope that's the spirit you are met with by all here.)

If you're not an apostate, ignore this post. And I will apologize for having believed a false rumor

[thews]

Wow, I have been duped. Thank you so much for enlightening me with detail that I have never heard. I will resign immediately.

Oh, could you provide some sources from someone other than an D.Michael Quinn......he was excommunicated for being an apostate and since his works have largely been discredited, I would rather bet my Eternal salvation on sources a bit more reliable than an avowed homosexual and ex member of the church.

Other than bad sarcasm I hardly see your point. Is the Elder's Journal not evidence enough?

Elder's Journal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Far West, Missouri, July 1828

Vol.1, No.3, p.48

What do you make of Swedenborg's writings before 1800?

[bytor2112]

Other than bad sarcasm I hardly see your point. Is the Elder's Journal not evidence enough?

Evidence that Joseph was a fraud and that I should leave the church? Try researching a bit further with the thought that the church is true and you just might find the rest of the story.

What do you make of Swedenborg's writings before 1800?

What do you think of the writings of Paul in the New Testament?

[Just_A_Guy]

What do you make of Swedenborg's writings before 1800?

What do you make of Hillel's writings before 10 BC?

[bytor2112]

The LDS Doctrine of Degrees of Glory

While pondering the significance of certain of the aforementioned passages in the Bible, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were given a most striking vision of the fate of mankind after the general resurrection and judgment, which included a description of the three principal kingdoms of glory. (D&C 76) They found that the first kingdom, called the Celestial, will be inhabited by those who have overcome by faith in Jesus Christ (D&C 76:50-70, 92-96), including children who have died and those who would have accepted the gospel in this life, but were not given the chance until they reached the spirit world. (D&C 137:1-10) The second kingdom, called the Terrestrial, will be inhabited by good people who were just and kind, but were not valiant in their testimony of Jesus. Those who rejected the gospel in this life, but afterwards received it will be given a reward in this kingdom, as well. (D&C 76:71-80, 91, 97)199 The third, or Telestial, kingdom will be given to the generally wicked masses of the earth who spent their entire residence in the Spirit World in Hell, and so were not worthy of any higher glory. (D&C 76:81-90, 98-112)

Another distinction between these kingdoms is that those who receive Celestial glory will reside in the presence of the Father Himself, while those in the Terrestrial kingdom will receive the presence of the Son, and those in the Telestial will have the Holy Ghost to minister to them. (D&C 76:62, 77, 86)

Sun, Moon, and Stars as Types of the Degrees of Glory

What marvelous light this vision has thrown upon obscure Bible passages! For example, what good does it do to know that there are three heavens if one does not know anything about them? Another example of a passage illuminated by this revelation is Paul's description of the glory of the resurrected body:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:40-42)

In the vision of the kingdoms of glory, the Lord revealed that this passage is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected:

And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world. (D&C 76:96-98)

Origen, in the early third century, revealed that the early Church interpreted this passage in essentially the same way:

Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."200

He further explained that the highest of the three degrees is associated with the Father, and the second degree with the Son:

And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols.201

We shall see that Origen's doctrine of a fourth degree for the very wicked is fairly consistent with LDS belief, as well.

John Chrysostom was another witness to the fact that the early Church considered this passage to be a reference to degrees of reward in the afterlife:

And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment.202

More Ancient Witnesses to the Three Degrees of Glory

This doctrine goes back much further than Origen and Chrysostom, however. Irenaeus preserved the same tradition which had supposedly come from the elders who knew the Apostles. Many think he received it from Papias:

And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the Apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."203

Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God." (D&C 76:58)

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.204

Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions:

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is . . . right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of . . . medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation.205

Other Systems of Multiple Heavens

Actually, there were several schemes for the structure of the heavens, with different numbers of heavens which varied also in their contents.206 But even where three degrees were not specifically mentioned, it was maintained that various gradations of the elect exist. For example, Similitude 8 in the Pastor of Hermas discusses various types of elect. The editors of one collection of early Christian documents preface the chapter with this summary: "That there are many kinds of elect, and of repenting sinners: and how all of them shall receive a reward proportionable to the measure of their repentance and good works."207

Jesus, in the Epistle of the Apostles, made a distinction between the "elect" and "most elect."208 And consistent with this, the Jewish Christian Clementine Recognitions reduced the number of heavens to two.209

One of the most popular schemes was that of seven heavens. Daniélou asserts that the idea of seven heavens was first introduced by certain Jewish Christian groups and "derives from oriental, Irano-Babylonian influences," while the older Jewish apocalyptic tradition and many other early Christian groups held to the three heavens scheme.210 However, it appears that the seven heavens may originally have been consistent with the three heavens doctrine. For example, we have seen that Irenaeus preserved Papias's doctrine of three heavens, but in another passage he asserted that "the earth is encompassed by seven heavens, in which dwell Powers and Angels and Archangels, giving homage to the Almighty God who created all things . . . ."211 As Daniélou points out, since the seven heavens were the dwelling places of angels, they probably were thought to have been gradations within the second of the three principal heavens.212 Source: Fair

[Ezequiel]

I believe it does, even in a greater and more pure sense.

I guess I need to see the teaching you read that makes you think otherwise.

no, no, no, hold on... I think you misinterpreted me. I only asked what would keep all the singles in the celestial kingdom from falling in love to eachother, dispite the fact that sealings wont occur in the celestial kindgom. Its really a silly question that I was thinking about. I'm not saying that love wont exist there.

[cougarfan]

Are you LDS? I see that your religion is listed as other. I'm confused.

[thews]

Evidence that Joseph was a fraud and that I should leave the church? Try researching a bit further with the thought that the church is true and you just might find the rest of the story.

In researching the facts, I don't need to read the Book of Mormon to acknowledge them, nor do I need to pray for guidance when I know facts are facts, and they are in fact true. In this case, if Swedenborg wrote about the three levels of heaven naming the "Celestial kingdom," I don't have to force the square peg into the round hole to make sense out of it. When I know Joseph Smith tried to sell the Book of Mormon for $3000, I also don't have to force that square peg into a round hole. When I know that Joseph Smith used his magic stone to cheat people out of their money by glass-looking before writing the Book of Mormon, I again don't have to rationalize it. If you take all of these things and look at the timeline, Joseph Smith really changed his theology when comparing 1830 to 1842. If you logically look at this progression after 1840, that's when polygamy/polyandry was introduced. Was this really of God, or of Joseph Smith? If you contend this is wrong (I do), then Joseph Smith, who supposedly knew God existed and was watching his every move, was doing some really bad things. Now logically, does it make sense that Joseph Smith knew God existed and the Book of Mormon was true, or is it more logical that Joseph Smith knew the Book of Mormon was false and was using the Mormon church to satisfy his own desires? (Note read the published letter to Sarah Ann Whitney with an ounce of critical thought and this is easy to see). Now add in that Joseph Smith was in the process of changing the bible when he died. Does this seem like God was pleased with his work, or frowned upon it? Does this seem pro or con when reading the bible regarding false prophets and their fate? Why would God allow this, and if you think he would, why didn't he have someone else finish it? Add it all up, and I contend it's why you didn't answer the question regarding Swedenborg's writings about the Celestial kingdom before 1800, and I would also contend that it's because it sides with the Book of Mormon not being true rather than being true.

What do you think of the writings of Paul in the New Testament?

I think you're trying to change the subject to keep from answering the question about Swedenborg's writings and the vision of James G. Marsh.

Edited September 23, 2009 by thews

[Just_A_Guy]

(Note read the published letter to Sarah Ann Whitney with an ounce of critical thought and this is easy to see).

You mean, the letter that was freakin' addressed to her PARENTS?

[bytor2112]

thews,

I answered your question, but, you didn't like the response. The list of alleged facts that you present are easy to dig up and believe if you hang around sites like Utah Lighthouse Ministry or any of the other obsessed with Mormonism web sites. The common link, none of them or you need to pray to learn the truth. None of them or you need to consider alternative answers to perceived problems, because your sources are flawless and absolutely reliable..... so you think.

Do you think Swedenborg was familiar with any of the writings from the comments I posted earlier. Could he have been inspired. Have other men been inspired? Incidentally Joseph wasn't changing the Bible, he was clarifying passages in the Bible.

Something you probably won't understand....."the things of God are only understood by the power of the Holy Spirit."

[Moksha]

[parody]

I tend to be much more logical. If Hillel wrote about it before Jesus of Nazareth, it's logical to assume that whoever wrote the Bible "borrowed" this concept from Hillel (for the record I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth wrote it).

Using logic, I hardly see this as an accident or coincidence, but rather further proof that Jesus of Nazareth was not a prophet of God, but believed in other rabbis' teachings.

Response to parody:

Hillel and Jesus described love as the kernel for both Judaism and Christianity. Both spoke of the Golden Rule and the blessedness of the meek and peace makers. However my conclusion is that both sets of ideas were divinely inspired rather that mere copying. The hand of God can be quite active in promoting the synthesis and inclusion of ideas.

:)

[bytor2112]

My Bishop and I are really good friends and he often says that anti material is as poisonous as pornography. As pornography degrades and skews and binds people to a warped reality, so does anti material.

[Ezequiel]

I think its time to abandon ship here.... the initial topic isn't even being discussed anymore...

[cougarfan]

I think its time to abandon ship here.... the initial topic isn't even being discussed anymore...

No kidding. And what is "anti material" anyway? Never could quite get a handle on that one. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder like the Supreme Court said about pornography "I know it when I see it."

[thews]

You mean, the letter that was freakin' addressed to her PARENTS?

Yes I know... it clearly states "you three" in it. FAIRMORMON twists "the real" issue with it as to who it wqs addressed to, when in fact it's a moot point. The only condition Joseph Smith states is "not safe" is if Emma was there. No mention of bad guys, no mention of mobs, but the only condition it is not safe is if his wife Emma was there, and he stated he thought she wasn't going to be there, and he had a room "intirely to myself." Also note that Joseph Smith promised Sarah's parents eternal salvation, and that is was God will that they come, and it was now or never. Add into this Sarah's father had 38 wives of his own, and she had just turned 17.

If you really want to read Fair's arguments with the 4 "distortions," they are all much ado about nothing, and do not address what Joseph Smnith actually said, but for some reason talk abotu what some other guy name Smith said. This is clearly an attemt to add Sarah Ann Whitney to his wives, and he did marry her. Again, the letter is addresed to all of them, it is addressed to Sarah's parents, so this is a fact and and a non issue.

Question: Why was the only condition deemed "not safe" is when Joseph Smith

's wife wasn't there, and he stated he was "lonesome" and "Lonely"? You have to really look at this critically, because this is a letter from the Mormon prophet of God in Joseph Smith, the LDS church acknowledges it is in fact written by Joseph Smith, there are pictures of it on the web, and Joseph Smith instructs them to burn it, which Sarah didn't... it's a real insight into the mind of Joseph Smith. Read it and tell me what you honestly think.

[bytor2112]

No kidding. And what is "anti material" anyway? Never could quite get a handle on that one. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder like the Supreme Court said about pornography "I know it when I see it."

Misleading information designed to confuse, mislead and destroy one's testimony of the restored Gospel.

[thews]

My Bishop and I are really good friends and he often says that anti material is as poisonous as pornography. As pornography degrades and skews and binds people to a warped reality, so does anti material.

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

"Anti" is a negative phrase to keep you from understanding the real history. Actual factual history is not "Anti" ...it's just factual data.

[thews]

Misleading information designed to confuse, mislead and destroy one's testimony of the restored Gospel.

How can factual history be "Anti"?

[bytor2112]

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

"Anti" is a negative phrase to keep you from understanding the real history. Actual factual history is not "Anti" ...it's just factual data.

The real history huh? According to.....? Sources please.

[bytor2112]

How can factual history be "Anti"?

Don't be obtuse. The net is filled with obsessed people that distort and lie in order to destroy. You say factual history....I say some fact mingled with fiction. Did you ever have a testimony or are you a troll and are here to stir the pot? I suspect the latter.

[Just_A_Guy]

Thews -

All this, after your sanctimonious pontificating about changing the subject?

Let us recall that you brought the Whitney letter up purportedly to illustrate that "Joseph Smith knew the Book of Mormon was false and was using the Mormon church to satisfy his own desires". Which it obviously doesn't. It was an effort to drive discussion away from Swedenborg. I'm probably a fool for playing into it, but maybe when you get your clock thoroughly cleaned on this red herring you'll slink back onto the topic.

Yes I know... it clearly states "you three" in it. FAIRMORMON twists "the real" issue with it as to who it wqs addressed to, when in fact it's a moot point.

It's THE point, if you're are trying to sell it as a love letter.

The only condition Joseph Smith states is "not safe" is if Emma was there. No mention of bad guys, no mention of mobs, but the only condition it is not safe is if his wife Emma was there, and he stated he thought she wasn't going to be there, and he had a room "intirely to myself."

Yeah, and it's not like Joseph wrote the letter when he was IN HIDING or anything.

Also note that Joseph Smith promised Sarah's parents eternal salvation, and that is was God will that they come, and it was now or never.

How convenient of you to forget that the elder Whitneys were sealed in marriage three days later.

Add into this Sarah's father had 38 wives of his own . . .

Newell K. Whitney did not have 38 wives. At the time of the events in question he was a monogamist. After Smith's death he took two more wives.

This is clearly an attemt to add Sarah Ann Whitney to his wives, and he did marry her. [Emphasis added]

"Had married" her, actually. Three weeks before the letter was even written. Proving that you have no clue what on earth you're talking about.

So, you wanna make an argument about why Swedenborg disproves Joseph Smith while Hillel disproves nothing? Or do you need to take a few minutes and run back to the Exmo boards to come up with your next talking points?