Celestial Kingdom

[Guest]

A number have had their calling and election made sure. Probably more than most people realize. You don't need to be an Apostle or Prophet, either. A number of regional representatives, Stake Presidents, and others have had their Calling and Election made sure. They don't boast about it. In fact, they are pretty quiet about it usually. But some of them will tell you if you ask them. Beyond that, the sealing by the holy spirit of promise is not just the temple sealing, but a personal sealing. Many have also received this, and are probably even less talkative about it than when their calling and election are made sure.

That's exactly it. She does not wish to go through more child-bearing. Everything else is okay, though. She does see it as you do, more of a work - after all, it is called "labor" - than a blessing. If she has failed in nothing else, it is wrong to keep her out of the Kingdom of Heaven. If all her ducks are in a row, and from what I've seen of her, I would say they probably are, she is very faithful and consistent in her church work and studying and prayers, then she should be rewarded. Getting pregnant should not be the deciding factor who goes to the Celestial Kingdom and who not. If that is, then there might be some otherwise qualified men who shouldn't go, too. It has nothing to do with selfishness or avoidance of work, or shirking the principles of the gospel. It has to do with her personal feelings about having more babies. She says five is enough. If Heavenly Father wants her to have more babies, he can let her adopt them. She says she would have no problem being a sister wife and helping the others raise their children, however many millions there may be. She just doesn't want to go through that process any more. She loves children. She just feels that five is enough. "If my way to Exaltation is blocked because I don't want to bear more children, then why don't they let Satan back in if he agrees to get himself pregnant." She knows that's a little silly, but insists that it is "equitable."

All that has got me to thinking. When I have my world and wives and children, I wonder if there must always be three kingdoms of heaven, or can each God construct his heaven personally, so that some might have two kingdoms and others four. The kingdom "like stars" would contain the widest variety, but even that could be split up according to some standard, I suppose. It's fun to think about. But I know that we will understand it perfectly later, and then all those questions, and my friend's concern about not wanting more children, will all be answered. I tell her, "Have faith. Be patient. You will get an answer, and it will be one you can accept."

Where in blazes does it say you cannot gain exaltation because you only have 5 children? I only have 2. I can't have 3. I doubt I'm less worthy than the bishop's wife who has 5...

[thews]

Just an FYI ...in 1784 Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book called “Heaven and Hell and its Wonders.” In it, Swedenborg claimed there were three different levels of heaven. The highest level was called “The Celestial Kingdom,” and the inhabitants of the three heaves corresponded to the sun, the moon, and the stars.

[cougarfan]

Just an FYI ...in 1784 Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book called “Heaven and Hell and its Wonders.” In it, Swedenborg claimed there were three different levels of heaven. The highest level was called “The Celestial Kingdom,” and the inhabitants of the three heaves corresponded to the sun, the moon, and the stars.

I read a quote recently where Joseph Smith said he agreed with Swedenborg. He seems to have been aware of his writings. I'll go back and see if I can find it.

[Ezequiel]

what I'm wonderign now... is that all those singles that make it to the celestial kingdom.. whats stopping them from engaging in a romantic relationship?

[Justice]

Just an FYI ...in 1784 Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book called “Heaven and Hell and its Wonders.” In it, Swedenborg claimed there were three different levels of heaven. The highest level was called “The Celestial Kingdom,” and the inhabitants of the three heaves corresponded to the sun, the moon, and the stars.

You can view this 2 ways:

1. Joseph Smith read his writings and got his belief from his writings.

2. Swedenborg studied early Christian writings and saw it written somewhere, or was himself enlightened by the Spirit of God, and Joseph Smith is but restoring a truth that was once had.

Just because others said it first, or coined the phrase, doesn't mean it's not true, nor is it evidence Joseph Smith was not inspired. It's all in how you choose to see it.

[Justice]

what I'm wonderign now... is that all those singles that make it to the celestial kingdom.. whats stopping them from engaging in a romantic relationship?

We are told that all ordinances must be done on earth. As far as I know a reason has not been given, other than they cannot be done hereafter. Sealing is an ordinance, so...

[Just_A_Guy]

Just an FYI ...in 1784 Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book called “Heaven and Hell and its Wonders.” In it, Swedenborg claimed there were three different levels of heaven. The highest level was called “The Celestial Kingdom,” and the inhabitants of the three heaves corresponded to the sun, the moon, and the stars.

Just as an FYI, the Jewish scholar Hillel claimed during his lifetime (70 BC - 10 BC) that "what is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

Sound familiar?

[thews]

Just as an FYI, the Jewish scholar Hillel claimed during his lifetime (70 BC - 10 BC) that "what is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

Sound familiar?

Just that you're again attacking me for stating a fact... I just thought you might be interested, but attack away if it makes you feel better.

[Moksha]

Emanuel Swedenborg also believed in Celestial marriage and eternal progression.

[Lorenzo]

Where in blazes does it say you cannot gain exaltation because you only have 5 children? I only have 2. I can't have 3. I doubt I'm less worthy than the bishop's wife who has 5...

"In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare."

Those who do not enter into the Eternal Covenant (of Marriage) may enjoy exaltation, but they will not experience Eternal Increase, which is what eternal progression is all about.

However many children a couple has in their mortality, there are millions more waiting to be born in spirit bodies (by their spirit parents) in the eternities that stretch before them.

[Hemidakota]

You can view this 2 ways:

1. Joseph Smith read his writings and got his belief from his writings.

2. Swedenborg studied early Christian writings and saw it written somewhere, or was himself enlightened by the Spirit of God, and Joseph Smith is but restoring a truth that was once had.

Just because others said it first, or coined the phrase, doesn't mean it's not true, nor is it evidence Joseph Smith was not inspired. It's all in how you choose to see it.

Totally agree...it is outside of the restoration period (Swedenborg) and the man is righteous enough, he would be able to receive direct revelation and be edified.

[Hemidakota]

Emanuel Swedenborg also believed in Celestial marriage and eternal progression.

Never knew this man until you noted it and Pam linked it. I do believe this man had received divine revelation of the Celestial Kingdom and perhaps others visions he cannot mention.

[Hemidakota]

However many children a couple has in their mortality, there are millions more waiting to be born in spirit bodies (by their spirit parents) in the eternities that stretch before them.

Are "YOUR REALLY SURE" this is how it works - creation of spirit children by spirit parents?

[Moksha]

Never knew this man until you noted it and Pam linked it. I do believe this man had received divine revelation of the Celestial Kingdom and perhaps others visions he cannot mention.

I have heard mention in Church that divine inspiration has happened throughout history, so instead of viewing this as a grudge match as to who said it first like some have mentioned above, could it not be viewed as independent confirmation that such ideas really are inspired and have biblical roots. What you suggest rings true Hemidakota. God is undoubtedly an unending fount of inspiration.

[ferretrunner]

Because attaining Godhood would mean endless glory. The Father is still progresses in His glory, because His righteous children glorify Him. By forfeting the divine ability to procreate spiritual children, then you are denying yourself the opportunity to grow in glory and thus passing up the opportunity to truly attain Godhood.

Well, unless Heavenly Father wants to repair what is "broken," I guess my earthly medical condition will keep me from attaining the highest level.

Sorry, this thread is really challenging me. Perhaps I need to bow out. But, being told "you're not woman enough" pretty much --- I really have a hard time seeing HF punishing people for making responsible decisions about childbearing in the next world- or punishing women who can't have children. I guess I must have been "predestined" to fail no matter my choices.

What I said eariler about two strikes....

[Just_A_Guy]

Just that you're again attacking me for stating a fact... I just thought you might be interested, but attack away if it makes you feel better.

You stated a fact; I stated a fact. No attack there, unless you count the rebuttal of your veiled jibes as an attack.

[Ezequiel]

We are told that all ordinances must be done on earth. As far as I know a reason has not been given, other than they cannot be done hereafter. Sealing is an ordinance, so...

yeah... but you fall in love before you are sealed. So why cant that love exist?

[FunkyTown]

I disagree, Gnat.

Many women are told by bishops that if they do not have the opportunity to marry here, they will have it in the hereafter. God is a god of equality and just because there are fewer guys in the church than women should not exclude them from eternal increase.

"In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare."

Those who do not enter into the Eternal Covenant (of Marriage) may enjoy exaltation, but they will not experience Eternal Increase, which is what eternal progression is all about.

However many children a couple has in their mortality, there are millions more waiting to be born in spirit bodies (by their spirit parents) in the eternities that stretch before them.

[bmy-]

I disagree, Gnat.

Many women are told by bishops that if they do not have the opportunity to marry here, they will have it in the hereafter. God is a god of equality and just because there are fewer guys in the church than women should not exclude them from eternal increase.

Eternal increase is available to all those who want it. Now the speed of that increase.. *shrug* I do not believe that is constant at all. I intend to take my time.. it seems as if I'll have a ton of it.

[thews]

Totally agree...it is outside of the restoration period (Swedenborg) and the man is righteous enough, he would be able to receive direct revelation and be edified.

So you're saying Swedenborg had visions by divine intervention?

[FunkyTown]

So you're saying Swedenborg had visions by divine intervention?

I think Hemi is saying the jury is out and he's willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Justice]

yeah... but you fall in love before you are sealed. So why cant that love exist?

I believe it does, even in a greater and more pure sense.

I guess I need to see the teaching you read that makes you think otherwise.

[thews]

You can view this 2 ways:

1. Joseph Smith read his writings and got his belief from his writings.

2. Swedenborg studied early Christian writings and saw it written somewhere, or was himself enlightened by the Spirit of God, and Joseph Smith is but restoring a truth that was once had.

Just because others said it first, or coined the phrase, doesn't mean it's not true, nor is it evidence Joseph Smith was not inspired. It's all in how you choose to see it.

I tend to be much more logical. If Swedenborg wrote about it before Joseph Smith, it's logical that whoever wrote the Book of Mormon "borrowed" this concept from Swedenborg (for the record I don't believe Joseph Smith wrote it). In using your logic, Swedenborg is a prophet of God. I'm not buying that he "saw it somwhere." There always seems to be a square peg and a round hole to this kind of logic. You don't have to agree with me to see the point, but in this instance clearly the "restored" part of the afterlife was Swedenborg's first, through his vision.

Just as the Visions of James G. Marsh saw two personages:

"7 May, 1838. James G. Marsh, 14-year-old son of the president of the Quorum of Twelve, dies. The Elder's Journal issue of July notes that at age nine this boy "had a remarkable vision, in which he talked with the Father and many of the ancient prophets face to face, and beheld the Son of God coming in his glory." No publication at this time had yet referred to Smith's vision of the Father and the Son."

(D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p.628)

Logic would dictate that Joseph Smith knew of this (Joseph Smith was the editor of the Elders Journal that published his obituary) and borrowed the boy's story.

Elder's Journal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Far West, Missouri, July 1828

Vol.1, No.3, p.48

OBITUARY.

DIED on the 7th of May last, James G. Marsh, second son of Thomas B. Marsh, aged 14 years, 11 months and seven days.

From early infancy he manifested a love and reverence towards his Heavenly Father, while his parents diligently taught him the first principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And having a thirst for knowledge and a love of good principles, he eagerly embraced the gospel, and was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, early in the spring of 1832, being between eight and nine years of age.

His great love of knowledge led him to take hold of every opportunity to read the most useful books, and as he was a lover of the gospel, he made himself well acquainted with the sacred writings, and even at this early age, he had become well skilled in profane as well as sacred history.

It seems that the Lord had respect unto this lover of righteousness, for when he was but about nine years of age, he had a remarkable vision, in which he talked with the Father and many of the ancient prophets face to face, and beheld the Son of God coming in his glory.

Don't these two things (Swedenborg and James G. Marsh) morph into Mormonism? One need only believe in these people's visions to accept them as divine. Using logic, I hardly see either as an accident, or coincidence, but rather further proof that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, but believed in magic and other people's visions. 2 cents...

[StallionMcBeastly]

Hmmm. So, because I haven't married, I get to serve others in the afterlife? Like some sort of maid? Gee... makes me wonder what's the point? I suppose in my line of work in this world, I'll at least be used to being a servant to others and I enjoy my career. So, hopefully, I'll enjoy being a servant throughout eternity also. But, it doesn't seem like much of a "reward" for "enduring to the end." I guess that sounds rather sarcastic.

But, why will I not be able to be exalted because of a decision that has to be made mutually? After all, I can't force someone to marry me, can I? Or force him to be a priesthood holder? And people wonder why I struggle so much with a testimony! Pretty much, in terms of exaltation, I have two strikes against me... 1. being female and 2. being single.

Hmmm on second thought my comment may not have been helpful.

Edited September 23, 2009 by StallionMcBeastly
I'm kind!

[bytor2112]

I hardly see either as an accident, or coincidence, but rather further proof that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, but believed in magic and other people's visions. 2 cents...

Wow, I have been duped. Thank you so much for enlightening me with detail that I have never heard. I will resign immediately.

Oh, could you provide some sources from someone other than an D.Michael Quinn......he was excommunicated for being an apostate and since his works have largely been discredited, I would rather bet my Eternal salvation on sources a bit more reliable than an avowed homosexual and ex member of the church.