Thought v. Action

[Maxel]

Jim's never going to agree, guys. It's a distinct theological difference. Arguing the point is useless and detracts from the topic at hand (not to mention this exact same thing has been discussed countless times with Jim).

[Snow]

For salvation none of this is required, however I do not know one Born Again who has not been baptized and who does not "try" to do what Christ commands. We always come up short, but we try. Salvation is not earned, it is given when we first believe by Grace. Nothing by my hands is enough to earn salvation. Jesus alone is enough. Thank you Jesus.

I've never quite understood this point of view. If that is the case, what do you do with all the many scriptures that say otherwise.

Are they all in error? All they all interpolations?

[Lorenzo]

My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Not true, you have to believe in Jesus. Grace comes the moment you believe and it is done. The problem here is that the "Good News" is "almost" to good to be true. But, it is true. Jesus did it all. When you say Jesus "and"...... something else, you take away from Jesus. When you believe in Jesus you believe that he is God, Christ, Born of a virgin and rose from the dead. You must also believe in His teachings. No, you do not understand "born again".

Thanks for the nice post, Jim. You are right. We have to believe in Jesus. As you say in a following post, you don't know anyone who is Born Again who has not sought baptism. In other words, certain actions follow belief in Jesus. Isn't it possible that besides baptism, other ordinances that follow naturally and necessarily after believing Jesus might be the laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Ghost, your calling and election made sure, honest tithing, and worthiness to enter the temple of the Most High so you can perform saving ordinances (baptism, sealing, etc.) for your dead ancestors and friends? Because the disciples believed in Jesus, they washed one another's feet. Shouldn't someone who is Born Again do this also? Jesus and his disciples celebrated Passover. Can someone who believes in Jesus not perform the same holy ordinances and customary practices that he performed and that his disciples performed in remembrance of him?

[Lorenzo]

Jim's never going to agree, guys. It's a distinct theological difference. Arguing the point is useless and detracts from the topic at hand (not to mention this exact same thing has been discussed countless times with Jim).

If a person is sincere in his search for truth, latter-day saints should be willing to spend the time to explain the true gospel to him. Otherwise, how are they ever to escape the darkness of apostate Christianity. (1 Nephi 14:10-12)

[pam]

If a person is sincere in his search for truth, latter-day saints should be willing to spend the time to explain the true gospel to him. Otherwise, how are they ever to escape the darkness of apostate Christianity. (1 Nephi 14:10-12)

I agree with you. However, this works both ways. The person asking or searching must also be open to the ideas and beliefs of the person providing answers. Maxel does have a point though. We can explain our understanding till the end of time..but if a person has their mind already made up and won't even acknowledge the answers being given..kinda moot at that point. We can only hope that something along the way sunk in and planted a little seed.

[lattelady]

What answers, ideas, or beliefs were being provided in the statement, "I believe, Brother, I believe! Praise, hallelujah!" ? It's interesting: that's the kind of interactions I used to experience in jr. high and highschool, growing up in Utah as a non-member, when someone would find out I wasn't part of the Church. We'd become involved in a doctrinal debate and there'd always be two or three (or more) against one (me) making comments similar to the ones made back and forth earlier in this thread. Those of you who talk to others that way (as adults), just know that you've probably taught that attitude, inadvertantly, to your children. They bring it to school and think it's acceptable to treat other "outsiders" that way.

Edited September 26, 2009 by lattelady

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is a difference between thoughts and desires. Sometimes it is hard to know the difference, but that's what the Holy Ghost is for, to let you know when you have crossed that line. Then you will know when a random thought is just a random thought versus a thought that comes from desires of the heart. That is in part, what we are here to learn ... to overcome the corrupted wiring of our physical mind and let our spirit reign over it. It takes time to learn that. In the mean time, bad thoughts come through, but don't have to turn into desires. Like the word "lust" suggests, it's not just a thought, it's a desire.

The trick then, is not to get rid of all bad thoughts or even expect that to happen but to know how to recognize them quickly before they turn into desires. I believe God knows the desires of our heart and we will be judged by those and not by random thoughts our spirit rejects.

[Moksha]

To control those thoughts is not a disorder, just a part of progression to return to him.

Look don't touch seems like a workable policy of the destroyer, he knows once the cows get out of the pasture how hard they are to get back in the pasture.

I was trying to give a pragmatic answer, since it was not a theoretical question, but one of concern to the poster. Best to control what you really can and leave the control of dreams alone. The wisdom to know the difference comes straight from the Serenity Prayer.

As for cows out of their pasture, it would be best to leave those concerns to Beefche.

[Moksha]

(Edited by moderator. Please refrain from political bashing.)

Edited September 27, 2009 by john doe

[Snow]

What answers, ideas, or beliefs were being provided in the statement, "I believe, Brother, I believe! Praise, hallelujah!" ? It's interesting: that's the kind of interactions I used to experience in jr. high and highschool, growing up in Utah as a non-member, when someone would find out I wasn't part of the Church. We'd become involved in a doctrinal debate and there'd always be two or three (or more) against one (me) making comments similar to the ones made back and forth earlier in this thread. Those of you who talk to others that way (as adults), just know that you've probably taught that attitude, inadvertantly, to your children. They bring it to school and think it's acceptable to treat other "outsiders" that way.

Oh please. You chastise people for making what you think are flippant remarks but others think that your view of salvation - faith only - is fliippant.

[pam]

What answers, ideas, or beliefs were being provided in the statement, "I believe, Brother, I believe! Praise, hallelujah!" ? It's interesting: that's the kind of interactions I used to experience in jr. high and highschool, growing up in Utah as a non-member, when someone would find out I wasn't part of the Church. We'd become involved in a doctrinal debate and there'd always be two or three (or more) against one (me) making comments similar to the ones made back and forth earlier in this thread. Those of you who talk to others that way (as adults), just know that you've probably taught that attitude, inadvertantly, to your children. They bring it to school and think it's acceptable to treat other "outsiders" that way.

I suppose you think this is just another example of my dislike for non members. Since I have been rather accused of that in the past. (now who was that btw) Now it appears I am being accused of acting like a middle schooler or a higher schooler. I'm also now being accused via my children for any outsiders being mistreated. Geez louise. It was a joke with Snow and in response to something he said. Nothing more. If you choose to be offended by it..that is of your choosing.

Edited September 27, 2009 by pam

[bytor2112]

For salvation none of this is required, however I do not know one Born Again who has not been baptized and who does not "try" to do what Christ commands. We always come up short, but we try. Salvation is not earned, it is given when we first believe by Grace. Nothing by my hands is enough to earn salvation. Jesus alone is enough. Thank you Jesus.

Sounds like the gospel according to Jim to me. Could you explain WHY Christ was baptized and why before he ascends to the Father, he tells his Apostles to....baptize? Can you support your response with scripture, please.

Jim......salvation is not earned. Truly Christ satisfied the demands of justice and made mercy available to all who believe in Him on conditions of repentance. HIS life was an example to us all....the path back to the Father of us all is carefully laid out, lest there be confusion. Everlasting life is a free gift......Eternal life requires that we live the commandments as best as we can and when we fall, we must repent, if we do not repent, we cannot return to live with the Father.

Edited September 27, 2009 by bytor2112

[john doe]

If a person is sincere in his search for truth, latter-day saints should be willing to spend the time to explain the true gospel to him. Otherwise, how are they ever to escape the darkness of apostate Christianity. (1 Nephi 14:10-12)

Ah, there's the rub. As a newbie to the board, you haven't tried talking to Jim, have you?

[Lorenzo]

Ah, there's the rub. As a newbie to the board, you haven't tried talking to Jim, have you?

That is correct. I am as fresh as a new-born babe, as trusting as a little tyke tucked in his swaddle-cloth. I am forced into the position of Trust. While I will listen to what others say about others, I still have to "find out" on my own who is sincere and who is a rabble rouser. And in this case, I admit further, I haven't read much that others have said about Jim save on this thread, or if I did read elsehwhere, I don't remember. (I had to put that in because sometimes when I make a mistake I'm attacked like a snake.) (Not by Mormons though, or not unless they are weak in the faith.)

Jim, if you are a mean guy, I apologize for trusting you and trying to be friendly.

But if you are a nice guy, I hope you are also a sincere guy. Let's boogie!

[Hemidakota]

“According to the Desire of [Our] Hearts”

Elder Neal A. Maxwell Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Excellent quote from your link - "It all takes time. Said the Prophet Joseph: “The nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider that this is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Pg51)."

[Hemidakota]

A friend and I were having a discussion today. He said that thinking about something sinful is as bad as actually doing it in God's eyes. For example, if I see an attractive man and have inappropriate thoughts about him, even though I didn't act on those thoughts, God still sees that as a sin.

What does everyone think?

When a thought enters the mind, immediately, we should put the thought to a ‘mind easer.’ In allowing a thought to ‘fester’ over time is the same as action.

[will227457]

the short anwser is no thinking about something bad is not the same as doing it tell your friend to get some perspective on life....now should we dwell on negetive thoughts...no...can we strive to have fewer negetive thoughts yes....

I am sure even the best person once in a while runs into someone he thinks is a total jerk...this does not condem him....its human nature...

Edited September 28, 2009 by john doe
please refrain from swearing, or even partial swearing with blanks.

[john doe]

That is correct. I am as fresh as a new-born babe, as trusting as a little tyke tucked in his swaddle-cloth. I am forced into the position of Trust. While I will listen to what others say about others, I still have to "find out" on my own who is sincere and who is a rabble rouser. And in this case, I admit further, I haven't read much that others have said about Jim save on this thread, or if I did read elsehwhere, I don't remember. (I had to put that in because sometimes when I make a mistake I'm attacked like a snake.) (Not by Mormons though, or not unless they are weak in the faith.)

Jim, if you are a mean guy, I apologize for trusting you and trying to be friendly.

But if you are a nice guy, I hope you are also a sincere guy. Let's boogie!

Well, have fun talking in circles.

[will227457]

09-28-2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: please refrain from swearing, or even partial swearing with blanks.

wow edited my first day.....nice....

[john doe]

09-28-2009 at 09:39 PM. Reason: please refrain from swearing, or even partial swearing with blanks.

wow edited my first day.....nice....

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as you are new............. we try to keep our conversation clean, even if we disagree with others.

[Lorenzo]

Well, have fun talking in circles.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Jim is nonlinear? (Jim, speak to me!) But, "Where there's life, there's hope." So even the most circular arguers, once they receive the Holy Spirit of Sincerity, will accept the truth. It just takes more time for some than it does for others.