Was Jesus born of a virgin?

[bmy-]

The original Hebrew text of Isaiah 7:14 reads as follows (translated):

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman [ha-almah] shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el".

Jewish scholars reason that [ha-almah] ("young woman") does not refer to a virgin and that had the Tanakh intended to refer to such, the specific Hebrew word for virgin [bethulah] would have been used.

Isaiah 7:14 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (sources included inside wiki)

Would it matter to you? As far as I'm aware the only reason the "virgin birth" miracle is considered necessary is because of the concept of "original sin" which we LDS do not acknowledge.

I say it does not matter and that it sure would solve a bunch of mysteries..

[Dr T]

Was it a fulfillment of prophecy?

[john doe]

Didn't we just finish a knock-down, drag-out fight over this?

[bmy-]

Didn't we just finish a knock-down, drag-out fight over this?

Link? I must have missed it.

Was it a fulfillment of prophecy?

Either way the 'prophecy' would have been fulfilled.

[Dr T]

I'm just saying, "If it was prophecy that was fulfilled then that could be one of the main reasons why it was important. If it was a prophecy then it HAD to happen or else Jesus wasn't who he said he was.

[Snow]

Would it matter to you? As far as I'm aware the only reason the "virgin birth" miracle is considered necessary is because of the concept of "original sin" which we LDS do not acknowledge.

I say it does not matter and that it sure would solve a bunch of mysteries..

That's not the only reason. Matthew thought it was important to fulfill prophecy - even if he did misunderstand the prophecy. There are other speculated reasons too.

[bmy-]

I'm just saying, "If it was prophecy that was fulfilled then that could be one of the main reasons why it was important. If it was a prophecy then it HAD to happen or else Jesus wasn't who he said he was.

Oh, I got ya. Either way the prophecy would have been fulfilled so it's a non-issue. She was either a virgin and the verse was translated correctly or she was simply a "young woman" and nothing more.

That's not the only reason. Matthew thought it was important to fulfill prophecy - even if he did misunderstand the prophecy. There are other speculated reasons too.

Mind summing them up for me?

[Snow]

Mind summing them up for me?

I don't agree so I didn't list them but since you ask... two such reasons:

-Illegitimacy

or

-In the mythic tradition a number of great figures are associated with miraculous and or virgin births... Pharaohs, Roman emperors, Hercules, in the Hindu Purana, Zorasterism, Mithraism, etc. It's one way to magnify a person's importance.

[bmy-]

-In the mythic tradition a number of great figures are associated with miraculous and or virgin births... Pharaohs, Roman emperors, Hercules, in the Hindu Purana, Zorasterism, Mithraism, etc. It's one way to magnify a person's importance.

Thanks, and what you mentioned is a classic example of why that 'prophecy' should be examined IMO.

[rameumptom]

Once again, you guys are ignoring the book of Mormon.

• 1 Ne. 11: 13, 15, 18, 20

  13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of aNazareth I beheld a bvirgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

  • • •

  15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

  • • •

  18 And he said unto me: Behold, the avirgin whom thou seest is the bmother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

  • • •

  20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a achild in her arms.

• 2 Ne. 17: 14

  14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name bImmanuel.

• Alma 7: 10

  10 And behold, he shall be aborn of Mary, at bJerusalem which is the cland of our forefathers, she being a dvirgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and econceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Are we to presume that Nephi, Alma and Joseph Smith were wrong? If so, I'd like to see some evidence towards that. Otherwise, perhaps we should defer to the prophets of the Restoration?

[unixknight]

Jesus has to be born of a virgin because of lineage, guys. He is literally the Son of God, not just spiritually (like the rest of us) but physically as well. There needs to be *no* ambiguity when He says things like "I am about my Father's business" and He's not building a table.

If all family trees are restored through Sealing, then Jesus Christ's place is as the Son of God the Father.

At any rate, I'm not sure I buy the interpretation that says "virgin" really meant "young woman." What kind of prophecy is that? "Born of a young woman..." As opposed to what? Who WASN'T born of a young woman in those days???

[hordak]

Once again, you guys are ignoring the book of Mormon.

Are we to presume that Nephi, Alma and Joseph Smith were wrong? If so, I'd like to see some evidence towards that. Otherwise, perhaps we should defer to the prophets of the Restoration?

Josephs translation (or any translation for that matter) wasn't word for word. It's possible Joseph choose word the word virgin ( which also indicates purity,) for it's familiarity even though it wasn't in the plates like he did with cockatrice, and alpha and omega.

(Not saying it did, but it could have)

On a side note.

When does anyone call Jesus Immanuel? The same virgin birth prophecy claims he will be called Immanuel. This name only appears in the prophecy itself and is never used for Jesus. Why is the virgin birth so important in a literal sense but the name is glossed over?

[Snow]

If you're going to toss in modern revelation - it's not an issue... but what's the fun in that?

[Traveler]

The ancient concept of a virgin does not carry the same meaning as the modern concept of a virgin. For this reason the translation is inaccurate and in a sense means that the Bible is not really the authority in understanding the doctrine. However, there are clues from other non-Biblical texts that can shed light on this matter.

Part of the ancient concept was that of preparation of an individual from childhood. For example, Samuel that was given by his mother as a covenant to be raised by priests as a child dedicated to G-d would qualify Samuel for the ancient understanding of a virgin. According to non-Biblical texts, Mary’s birth was announced by angles much the same way as was John the Baptists and others. Mary was then given to Levite priests at the temple at a very young age. Raised at the temple, Zacharias and Elisabeth became like parents to Mary (which is why Mary turned to Elisabeth in her most desperate hour). This dedication to G-d as a child then qualified Mary for the title of virgin. This makes sense to me.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

Josephs translation (or any translation for that matter) wasn't word for word. It's possible Joseph choose word the word virgin ( which also indicates purity,) for it's familiarity even though it wasn't in the plates like he did with cockatrice, and alpha and omega.

(Not saying it did, but it could have)

On a side note.

When does anyone call Jesus Immanuel? The same virgin birth prophecy claims he will be called Immanuel. This name only appears in the prophecy itself and is never used for Jesus. Why is the virgin birth so important in a literal sense but the name is glossed over?

All right: Let's examine what the Prophecy says from both angles and see which makes more sense:

1) "Jesus was born of a young woman."

Would this meet the qualifications for a prophecy? Would it be unique enough to identify the Son of God?

We can guess this if we identify what they mean by 'Young' and if many others would qualify for this. Does 'Young' mean 14? If so, there would be an awful lot of other people fitting the exact same description and probably this would not be in the bible any more than "And behold! The sign shall be that a man shall wake up and make himself some breakfast."

On the other hand, if you're saying 'Young' means 6-8, then you definitely have an argument that it's unique. I would disagree with this assessment, since that would most likely fulfill the second as well. It might not, but I would agree that it fulfilled the requirement that a prophecy be unique enough to actually identify someone.

2) "Jesus was born of a virgin."

Would this meet the qualifications for a prophecy? Would it be unique enough to identify the Son of God?

Something like this is possible today. In vitro fertilization, cloning, if this were a prophecy for today, we could still say it was unique enough to qualify as prophecy. In ancient times, however, this would be a bona fide miracle.

The choices we seem to have are:

The first interpretation is correct and that prophecy fit almost everyone who was alive in that day and age.

The first interpretation is correct but is in reference to a woman who became fertile at an age far younger than the average.

The second interpretation is correct.

[Dove]

Wow,

Am I the only one that has heard the doctrine that the Saviour is the literal Son of God, the Father?! I feel like I have read this so often, with explanation and all as to how, for it to be uncomfortable to me!

Has anybody else heard this doctrine?

[pam]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - What It Means to Know Christ

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “God So Loved the World”

Both talks give mention of Jesus Christ being the "literal" Son of God, the Father.

[Dove]

I have really struggled with this, until it was explained to me that the Father and Mary were first wed before the conception of the Saviour....

[pam]

Now that one is new to me.

[FunkyTown]

... I would sincerely doubt that, Dove.

Yes, he's the literal son of God. No, that didn't involve 'relations' with God and Mary. Joseph and Mary were married to one another. Unless you can point out where in the scriptures it says that Mary was involved in Polyandry, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

[pam]

Thanks Funky. I thought perhaps it was just something I had not learned.

[FunkyTown]

Thanks Funky. I thought perhaps it was just something I had not learned.

No problem. Considering that this particular piece of non-doctrine would involve Mary being a polyandrist or God being a divorcee(Which raises all sorts of sticky questions: Did Mary cheat on him? If not, by the Saviour's definition, he'd be an adulterer. I do not believe that.), I think it's safe to say this is not a correct piece of doctrine.

[sixpacktr]

I have heard others use the 'HF was married to Mary' explanation before, because there is an implication of sexual relations in order for Christ to be born. Wouldn't that act, of necessity, have made Mary a 'non-virgin'? And, if we follow that reasoning, wouldn't the relations have been incestuous? The bible states that she was 'overcome by the power of the HG' or some such wording. Where is there any connotation of sexual relations in this phrase?

I don't know how HF did it, and to me we are treading on some sacred ground here so we ought to be careful, but as someone said earlier, with in-vitro, cloning, etc., that we can do now, I'm sure that HF could figure out a way to make this happen.

All I know is that the BoM testifies again to Christ's divinity, and as him being the Only Begotten of the Father, the literal Son of God.

[Dravin]

Are we questioning her virginity or if such is truly a matter of biblical record? The former could have some doctrinal implications.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Dravin

[hordak]

All right: Let's examine what the Prophecy says from both angles and see which makes more sense:

1) "Jesus was born of a young woman."

Would this meet the qualifications for a prophecy? Would it be unique enough to identify the Son of God?

We can guess this if we identify what they mean by 'Young' and if many others would qualify for this. Does 'Young' mean 14? If so, there would be an awful lot of other people fitting the exact same description and probably this would not be in the bible any more than "And behold! The sign shall be that a man shall wake up and make himself some breakfast."

On the other hand, if you're saying 'Young' means 6-8, then you definitely have an argument that it's unique. I would disagree with this assessment, since that would most likely fulfill the second as well. It might not, but I would agree that it fulfilled the requirement that a prophecy be unique enough to actually identify someone.

2) "Jesus was born of a virgin."

Would this meet the qualifications for a prophecy? Would it be unique enough to identify the Son of God?

Something like this is possible today. In vitro fertilization, cloning, if this were a prophecy for today, we could still say it was unique enough to qualify as prophecy. In ancient times, however, this would be a bona fide miracle.

The choices we seem to have are:

The first interpretation is correct and that prophecy fit almost everyone who was alive in that day and age.

The first interpretation is correct but is in reference to a woman who became fertile at an age far younger than the average.

The second interpretation is correct.

Problem is your working backwards. You conclude that the prophecy is about Jesus, therefor a virgin birth is more miraculous so that must be what it meant. However if you read the Tanakh you will see the word Almah is used in that passage where as the word betulah, is used when speaking of virgins.

Genesis 24:16, Exodus 22:16-17, Leviticus 21:14, and Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

Now i'm not saying Jesus wasn't born from a virgin. In fact i think unixknights idea that to be the only begotten son something must unique about the conception is correct. This particular passage however doesn't support the idea like many Christian assume. It's a bad translation.