Is Heavenly Father the First God?

[HillCumorahCC]

You show me a passage where we are teaching about Gods father.

It is also my understanding that the new GP manual tends to move to a less specific place on the KFD ideas.

As Hordak deftly pointed out, even the new GP manual continues to teach that God the Father once lived on an earth. Now, that may lead to speculation in other areas, such as the one being addressed in this topic, but if they wanted no speculation concerning the subject it should have been left out altogether, in my humble opinion.

[Misshalfway]

The idea that God progressed as Jesus progressed is NOT the parts that are being called speculative. If we were going to answer definitively the questions of the OP, we would have to venture into speculation.

I am saying that the church doesn't occasionally and even in a manual quote JS on the subject of the origins of God. I just think its so very important to hear what Joseph said and what he didn't say. It might even be reasonable to share some of the assumptions that seem logical from quotes like this. But ever important to define where the doctrine ends and the speculation begins, especially when we are talking about investigators and new members.

Wing is right. Our strongest doctrinal position is not on the edge of understanding but in the core of the restored gospel truths. Yes, we have little hints and glimpses into these great mysteries of God even in our scriptures. But still we must be careful imho, especially on a forum such as this.

[HillCumorahCC]

Will it be acceptable to continue this discussion and try to discuss the question of this topic? I don't want to be reprimanded for going into speculation. The quote left in the new GP manual brings up questions I believe are pertinent to the original question of this topic.

[Misshalfway]

What does Curtis say? It's his thread.

[deseretgov]

According to LDS doctrine, is Heavenly Father the First God? Jesus Christ, as well as all of us, are children of His but is there a God above Heavenly Father? I'm sure our finite brains can't truly comprehend this but I'm trying to get it straight as I possibly can...Since Jesus Christ is God and attained it, I'm assuming that Heavenly Father became a God in the same such manner? If so, did Heavenly Father have a Father as well? It's almost like a spirit genealogy LOL Well hopefully y'all get what I'm talking about. Any answers on this would be greatly appreciated.

Well the important thing for us to know right now is that God is the only God that we nee dto concern ourselves with since He is our God. Even if there are others they are irrelevent to us right now because they are not the God that rules over us.

But Personally I believe that Heavenly Father has a father, and that father has a father. So I think that you are correct in assuming "almost like a spirit genealogy." But only with this there is no beginning nor an end. There will always be another father. and there will always be more children. You would never be able to find the end points.

[sleepless3977]

possibly best summed up by the hymn 284 If You Could Hie to Kolob where W W Phelps sums it up beautifully......

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

there are other versus but basically he says there i no end to anything really. If we can comprehend this then..... wow

[teddyk]

I think the God that dealt with Jesus was the first God,I have no proof,its just why would he not be the one to do it.He could delegate,he would not get worn out by doing this job.

Jesus is our God as well,I thought of this once,if I could reach the ripe old age of 900 I know I would have a city full of grand kids,if I saw one of thoughs kid's,had what it take's to be like me,nothing would prevent me from being there when he went through the pain and suffering to save my other kids in the city.Opps..there I go,you see,now I am thinking like a Grandfather.

[pam]

Hey nothing wrong with sounding like a Grandfather. Grandfathers are cool.

[teddyk]

:) Yes^^^but they have to be told by Mrs.Grandfather..uh er Mama,its time to go to sleep.

[bmy-]

He may be. It is stated that there is a plurality of Gods.. now which one is the leader, who can tell? The only hymn I've ever really enjoyed was the one about Kolob, go figure

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted [prepared] a plan to create the world and people it." -- Joseph Smith

Edited December 1, 2009 by bmy-

[Hemidakota]

According to LDS doctrine, is Heavenly Father the First God? Jesus Christ, as well as all of us, are children of His but is there a God above Heavenly Father? I'm sure our finite brains can't truly comprehend this but I'm trying to get it straight as I possibly can...Since Jesus Christ is God and attained it, I'm assuming that Heavenly Father became a God in the same such manner? If so, did Heavenly Father have a Father as well? It's almost like a spirit genealogy LOL Well hopefully y'all get what I'm talking about. Any answers on this would be greatly appreciated.

No...there are many before HIM.

[Hemidakota]

All the rest is guessing and really for our personal salvation does not matter.

Ben Raines

It does matter. If it didn't matter the Godhead would not be teaching it to those who are called.

[Hemidakota]

This is an interesting topic in itself. According to LDS doctrine, what exactly did Jesus's death on the cross save us from? It seems that only the sons of perdition will be the ones to burn in Hell for all eternity, correct? Then what exactly is it? I know I have so many questions but it's just a burden y'all are gonna have to bear LOL

Justice...and now, who is Justice?

[FunkyTown]

And Halfers wins the thread. This was the best answer to this question there is.

Hi Curtis. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the gentle manner in which you ask your questions. It makes answering so much more enjoyable.

You are now in speculation territory as far as LDS doctrine is concern. This is a mystery of God to discover truly how Gods came to be. There is a scripture in the D&C 121 that gives us another glimmer. This revelation came while the prophet Joseph Smith and others were imprisioned in Liberty Jail. JSmith was crying to God concerning why he was called to suffer so and why God seemed not to intervene. The Lord answers Joseph's question by opening his mind to a more eternal perspective of things and told Joseph of a time when (as it says in vs. 28) ,..."A time to come in the which nothing (meaning knowledge) shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest."

We don't know where our Father came from. We don't' know exactly how He came to be. We have been given little peeks that, IMO, sometimes cause more confusion than clarity and sometimes cause people to define a truth when perhaps they shouldn't.

On another thread of yours, you and Pam were talking about puzzle pieces and learning spiritual truths "line upon line, precept upon precept." I think what happens is that the Lord gives a few pieces to the puzzle, and we in our impatience finish the puzzle in our minds before He does. Sometimes I hear LDS's people get really empassioned about these mysteries and share their finished puzzles when perhaps they are only the ideas of men mingled with scripture. You see what I am saying?

Now......let's say there is more than one Father God out there in the great expanse. What would that mean for us? Absolutely nothing. It just means that their may be life beyond our universe....beyond our frame of reference or influence. And their existance to us today is irrelevant. We answer to our Father. If my dad says be home at 10pm yet all the other dad's in the neighborhood set different curfews, it matters not because I must answer only to my father.

Does that make sense?

I also want to say something about Jesus. Our understanding of Jesus and how he progressed is perhaps a little better understood, but that doesn't mean there aren't some profound puzzle pieces missing. I am uncomfortable thinking that Jesus developed from an imperfect being into a perfect one. That is not what even our beloved BofM teaches. We are to understand fundamentally now that the Godhead, all members, are all powerful and omniscient and omnipresent and the same today, tomorrow and forever. I am learning, I think, that one's spiritual nature can stay constant while perhaps ones physical body needs progression. It would seem to me that even the idea of the Trinity includes that perfection remains even though a God would come to earth to change physically.

I have advised this before with other inquiries, but I will say it again. It may be more important at this stage of the game for you, and maybe for most of the rest of us, to make sure that we understand the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression. How it happens for the Godhead and for us, may have some fundamental differences. But eternal progression is a principle that is part of the fabric of eternal law. I don't know......Get yourself a cup of hot chocolate and give that a pondering.

[Hemidakota]

The trouble with that statement, we can know, if we are called to receive such.

[Vanhin]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

I don't know why people are saying it's speculation.

This comes directly from the Gospel Principal manual, the manual used to teach new members. If that doesn't qualify as doctrine i don't know what does.

Hordak, that part is not speculation, and does not necessarily mean that the Church officially accepts the infinite regress of gods idea. Any inference, beyond the basic statement that "as man is God once was", is speculation. That's all we know. As it stands, the scriptures make it obviously plain, that God is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, and that He has endlessly been creating worlds by His Only Begotten, and that the inhabitants of those worlds have been receiving immortality and eternal life (see Moses 1).

Even President Hinckley admitted that this is in the realm of speculation, and at most, we do not emphasize it. In answer to a question about this topic, he answered:

I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it. (Does President Gordon B. Hinckley Understand LDS Doctrine?)

I say stick to the revealed truth as found in the scriptures, until God gives us further light and knowledge concerning the matter through the process whereby doctrines become binding on members. I would be leery of anyone claiming to have received revelation on this matter, beyond what the Prophet teaches, as some "Church of the Firstborn" members on these forums like to claim from time to time.

Many of Joseph Smith's teachings on this topic did not get clarified before he died, and can be understood in more than one way. For more on the topic, see Nature of God/Infinite regress of Gods - FAIRMormon. Some doctrines Joseph Smith taught in these sermons have become scripture, however, and are binding on Church members.

The fact that the spirits of mankind are co-eternal with God, is one, and our potential to be exalted with Him is another. Of those things we are certain.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited December 8, 2009 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

We need to remember, not all prophets will receive different portions of what is considered our past creation or even what is considered above the Celestial state. Being a prophet also does not give them the key automatically in opening every door for the past but it is up to our divine Savior, the God of this world – namely Jesus the Christ - in departing truths to each prophet. Put it down to what is desired by the brethren. Yet, it doesn't preclude from asking either but considering the amount of responsibilities they hold, it is not at the top of a prophet’s priority list to seek an answer.

You can note the difference between each succeeding prophet from Joseph until now, what interest each have and talks that were given to the church. Nor it doesn’t preclude any sealed temple endowed priesthood holder in not receiving the fullness of truth [knowledge]. The Savior explained how to achieve this state of fullness in D&C 93.

Now, what is bothersome here on the pattern I have been seeing quite sometime, an example of emphasis in using another member here, how does a 14-year old girl receives past creation truths when many priestholders do not? Even Joseph Smith in his tender years of 14 receive greater truths than those around him.

[Vort]

According to LDS doctrine, is Heavenly Father the First God?

According to LDS doctrine, the heavenly Father is the only God.

Jesus Christ, as well as all of us, are children of His but is there a God above Heavenly Father?

There is no such doctrine in the LDS Church. Anyone who says otherwise is preaching false doctrine.

Since Jesus Christ is God and attained it, I'm assuming that Heavenly Father became a God in the same such manner? If so, did Heavenly Father have a Father as well?

You may assume anything you like. Many others before you have done so. But it isn't doctrine, just idle speculation, little different from a three-year-old's speculation of what life will be like when he's the mommy and mommy's the little boy.

[Hemidakota]

Didn't Savior mentioned in the New Testament, [paraphrasing here] "..I have done nothing that the Father hasn't done already." That is doctrine. It doesn't matter what others may state, if it is coming from the Lord, it is doctrine.

[bmy-]

According to LDS doctrine, the heavenly Father is the only God.

Joseph Smith said in the KFD.. (and he was speaking with authority as the prophet)

"I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible; I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible—Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith—in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh—the head, Sheit—grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the baith there. An old Jew without any authority added the word; he thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, “The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods.” That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council."

He also said.. (again, during the KFD he was speaking with authority, this is doctrine)

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."

Edited December 13, 2009 by bmy-