Questions for the Scientifically Inclined LDS

[hrsmn]

I am new to this site, and thought that it was a good site, but am changing my mind. I posted one point that was my opinion and was attacked for it. You have no idea who I am or what my education is and you attack me.

Gerald Brenan said "Intellectuals are people who believe that ideas are of more importance than values. That is to say their own ideas and other people’s values."

This is the feeling that I have gotten from a couple of you.

I don't Know if you are LDS or not, but this is what an apostle said in general conference and is therefore scripture:

Ensign » 1984 » November

The Pattern of Our Parentage

Elder Boyd K. Packer

"After Their Own Kind

No lesson is more manifest in nature than that all living things do as the Lord commanded in the Creation. They reproduce “after their own kind.” (See Moses 2:12, 24.) They follow the pattern of their parentage. Everyone knows that; every four-year-old knows that! A bird will not become an animal nor a fish. A mammal will not beget reptiles, nor “do men gather … figs of thistles.” (Matt. 7:16.)

In the countless billions of opportunities in the reproduction of living things, one kind does not beget another. If a species ever does cross, the offspring cannot reproduce. The pattern for all life is the pattern of the parentage.

This is demonstrated in so many obvious ways, even an ordinary mind should understand it. Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. (Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don’t show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!) The theory of evolution, and it is a theory, will have an entirely different dimension when the workings of God in creation are fully revealed.

Since every living thing follows the pattern of its parentage, are we to suppose that God had some other strange pattern in mind for His offspring? Surely we, His children, are not, in the language of science, a different species than He is?"

This is a stupid argument in the first place, because either way it won't affect where I end up after this life. It can be argued forever and the "Intellectuals" will never be convinced.

Edited November 15, 2009 by hrsmn

[hrsmn]

Here is another link from the LDS.org website. It talks about the "Theory of evolution" try reading it and let me know what you think.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Seek Ye Diligentlyâ€

Edited November 15, 2009 by hrsmn

[Snow]

There is nothing to be ashamed of Snow. I know it is hard for you but you need to admit it, it is a part of the healing process. So repeat after me:

Albert Newton, arbiter of all that is or is not scientific enough, passed away and in his will bequeathed his mantle to me.

Come on, say it, you know you'll feel better. I can understand the reaction to to mnn727's question as it bring up those painful memories of the passing of a beloved friend, but you need to accept things as they are. And besides, not only will you feel better, I'm sure mnn727 will feel better as well upon knowing the answer to the question asked. Additionally, I'm sure if mnn727 knew your emotionally tender state they would be a little more sensitive and you wouldn't have to fight back the pain with sarcastic remarks to painful questions.

I know it will be hard, but you need to say it, come to grips with what has happened, only good will come of it.

:)

I have a copy of Newtons Principia (Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica - Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and His System or the World) - Motte's Translation sitting right in front of me.

"Nature and Nature's Laws lay hid in night;

God said, 'Let Newton be!' -- And all was light."

[mnn727]

but this is what an apostle said in general conference and is therefore scripture:

.

I do have to correct 1 assumption on your part. Not everything said at G.C. is considered scripture or doctrine -- that is not something we LDS believe.

There have been instances where there have been actual corrections given to GC talks, the latest that comes to mind was Elder Nelsons peace talk on the eve of Desert Storm. (frankly he was 100% correct in my opinion but the Church backed away from his stance)

Having said that; you can also be assured that anything said was no doubt given much thought and usually adheres to actual doctrine.

[mnn727]

One of my pet peeves is when

people use enormous fonts -- I don't know if they need glasses or if they think their thoughts are so much more important than anyone elses.

[Dravin]

Found an interesting article: Deseret News | No definitive LDS stance on evolution, study finds

I found the quote at the end interesting:

"What the church requires is only belief 'that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race.'" President Hinckley added that scientists can speculate on the rest, and recalled his own study of anthropology and geology, saying, "Studied all about it. Didn't worry me then. Doesn't worry me now."

[Snow]

people use enormous fonts -- I don't know if they need glasses or if they think their thoughts are so much more important than anyone elses.

Not only that - but I also heard that he doesn't stop for a full three seconds at stop signs.

Go get em tiger.

[rameumptom]

The recent "belly button" thread made me curious about a few things. As many of you probably know, I am not LDS and don't believe in any particular religion, but I do find the intersection of science and religion to be an interesting subject. I would like to respectfully ask a few questions of willing participants, not to debate the answers, but to further my understanding of how science and religion interact. These questions are open to anyone, but I am particularly curious how some of the more scientific members answer these questions.

Do you believe evolution occurs at all?

Yes. I believe that God creates and destroys in cycles. The earth has gone through several such cycles of destruction, followed by creation (250 million years ago, 65 million years ago, last Ice Age, etc). God can use evolution to regenerate new species, preparing the earth for this last creation and man in His image.

Do you believe new species can occur through evolution?

Yes.

Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)?

I view it from a Mormon POV. We are all created from Intelligence and evolved/formed into spirits. We are just on the next level of our evolution into eternal beings. Our DNA is all similar to that of other living things, why not?

How old do you believe the universe is?

The known universe is between 12 and 15 billion years old.

How old do you believe the earth is?

Science shows it is about 4.5 billion years old. However, the particles making up the earth are still much older (dating back at least to the Big Bang).

Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate?

I believe something akin to the Big Bang probably occurred. Accuracy is a difficult term to use in conjunction with cosmic theory.

Do you believe any current prevailing scientific theories are at odds with your faith?

Yes. But since they are theories, that doesn't bother me.

If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you?

I would realize that the science and/or the religion was missing some information. I do not believe that all has been revealed in either area.

[Traveler]

people use enormous fonts -- I don't know if they need glasses or if they think their thoughts are so much more important than anyone elses.

It is an eternal principle that if two things (opinions) exist one will be greater (more important) than the other.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

people use enormous fonts -- I don't know if they need glasses or if they think their thoughts are so much more important than anyone elses.

It is well established throughout RV dealerships in Missouri, that if one posts in an oversized green font, they shall hold the keys to the Winnebago.

[HiJolly]

I know I'm late to the party, but ...

Do you believe evolution occurs at all?

Yes.

Do you believe new species can occur through evolution?

Yes.

Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)?

Completely.

How old do you believe the universe is?

Billions and Billions (of years).

How old do you believe the earth is?

Probably close to 5 billion.

Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate?

Considering lack of observability and such, I think it's probably reasonably close. I think "let there be light" is also close!

Do you believe any current prevailing scientific theories are at odds with your faith?

Yes. The root cause of homosexual tendencies, for example. Granted most of that is 'soft' science, but... I think the Church is improving in its position on this, over time...

If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you?

Yes. And has.

I have a followup question for you. Since you said probably on the common descent question, do you believe Adam and Eve to be allegorical? How do you reconcile the scientific evidence that humans evolved with the seemingly very different religious account of the creation? Honestly this particular question has been one of the main reasons I am not a member.

Whilst this requires a radically different interpretation of some scriptures, I believe A&E are allegorical, yet I believe there are actual people that could be said to 'fit the role' from antiquity.

That there were 'people' running about the earth more than 20,000 years ago is clear. More than 50,000 years. Maybe my standards are too low...

I follow truth. I have found that many times, I cannot rely on other people (be they whomever they may) to declare 'truth' for me. When I go to the sources, my understanding takes precedence over theirs, every time. Nevertheless, as a *starting point*, it works most of the time, IMO.

OTOH, I do not restrict my views to only logic, reason or science. Much as I value and love these, when God speaks to me, he does not use those methodologies.

I'm a scientifically-minded mystic, FWIW. Kinda like jumbo shrimp...

HiJolly

[RipplecutBuddha]

The recent "belly button" thread made me curious about a few things. As many of you probably know, I am not LDS and don't believe in any particular religion, but I do find the intersection of science and religion to be an interesting subject. I would like to respectfully ask a few questions of willing participants, not to debate the answers, but to further my understanding of how science and religion interact. These questions are open to anyone, but I am particularly curious how some of the more scientific members answer these questions.

Do you believe evolution occurs at all?

Do you believe new species can occur through evolution?

Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)?

How old do you believe the universe is?

How old do you believe the earth is?

Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate?

Do you believe any current prevailing scientific theories are at odds with your faith?

If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you?

it wouldn't surprise me at all, I don't see why not, It's possible, I believe it's eternal, not nearly as old as the universe, not completely, several are, not really...men have been wrong before...

[bmy-]

Do you believe evolution occurs at all?

Do you believe new species can occur through evolution?

Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)?

How old do you believe the universe is?

How old do you believe the earth is?

Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate?

Do you believe any current prevailing scientific theories are at odds with your faith?

If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you?

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes

4) 14 billion years

5) 4.5 billion years, give or take 500 million or so.

6) Sure do, I dislike the 'turtles all the way down' aspect though.

7) Tons.

8) Yes. It has before and it likely will again.

Hope I was helpful :)

[Hemidakota]

Do you believe evolution occurs at all?

Not even...or those who call Christian in tackling the genesis story. It is better to see it as the Prophet Jospeh did to have a further clarity of what Moses left out in details.

Do you believe new species can occur through evolution?

No. Each species was given a natural law to pro-create itself. There is no new species in this world that was not brought here. What we call a dog here maybe a different looking dog on the opposite end of the universe.

Do you believe in universal common descent, that all life on earth is related (in more than just a metaphorical sense)?

Yes...the story gem of Genesis is the creation story and is the key for understanding progression.

How old do you believe the universe is?

We will never know the true age until we see it for ourselve and received the information first-hand of the beginning of what was, how it was, and by whom created it.

How old do you believe the earth is?

More than 2-billion years but who is counting since it is covered over and resue from older past worlds that failed.

Do you believe that the Big Bang theory is accurate?

Not even close. There is Creator and laws given prior to this universe was even formed. The only exception is the "Expansion" but that is a given, which seen throughout life.

If strong scientific evidence directly contradicted your faith in some way, would that change anything for you?

We are always corrected on truths over time when we have the desire to know truths from a eternal source. Even my faith in the old notion of Noah and the deluge [prior before my conversion] was changed when we receive further instruction on how it happen. Or the story about Adam and Eve changed over time when I was corrected directly. We have moments as past prophets in learning divine truths.