Liahona (per request of Vanhin)

[thekabalist]

Hi forum,

I was analysing some material that Vanhin sent me to study. To be honest I was browsing fairly quickly in the book of Alma and came across this interesting description of a device used for navigation. Kind of a compass called 'Liahona'.

Now this is very interesting because of the etymology:

ליה – L'Yah - Unto Yah / In the direction of Yah

חנה – Honah - Graciousness

So this would be an instrument believed to "lead towards G-d's graciousness". Pretty interesting how the underlying Hebrew works.

Sadly it doesn't explain much about how the instrument worked though.

b'shalom

[pam]

Yet we as LDS believe the Liahona worked as long as those in whose hands it was entrusted to lived righteously. When they didn't it quit working.

[thekabalist]

Yet we as LDS believe the Liahona worked as long as those in whose hands it was entrusted to lived righteously. When they didn't it quit working.

Sounds a bit like the Urim and Thumim in Judaism. Did it work supernaturally?

[pam]

If by supernaturally you mean by the power of God. Yes. As well as a compass to assist Lehi and his family after their exile from Jerusalem as written about in the Book of Mormon, it also displayed periodic written instructions from God.

[thekabalist]

If by supernaturally you mean by the power of God. Yes. As well as a compass to assist Lehi and his family after their exile from Jerusalem as written about in the Book of Mormon, it also displayed periodic written instructions from God.

Yes that's what I meant. Very interesting! I'm learning a lot. :)

[Vort]

Yes that's what I meant. Very interesting! I'm learning a lot. :)

In what way do you think the Liahona is like the Urim and Thummim in Judaism?

[pam]

Sounds a bit like the Urim and Thumim in Judaism. Did it work supernaturally?

But it is interesting that you mention the Urim and Thummim, as we believe that Joseph Smith (our first Latter Day Prophet and the one that restored the Church in the latter days) also used this to interpret the gold plates he was led to which we now know as the Book of Mormon.

[thekabalist]

In what way do you think the Liahona is like the Urim and Thummim in Judaism?

The Urim and Thumim were used to counsel with G-d when guidance was needed. From what I understood of Pam's post it's similar with the Liahona? Though with the Urim and Thumim you would only get a yes or no answer.

[thekabalist]

But it is interesting that you mention the Urim and Thummim, as we believe that Joseph Smith (our first Latter Day Prophet and the one that restored the Church in the latter days) also used this to interpret the gold plates he was led to which we now know as the Book of Mormon.

Could you explain this more? Weren't the Urim and Thumim lost when the First Temple was destroyed? Or are these other objects that go by similar names?

[pam]

Let me see if I can find a reference that would explain this much more and better than I can.

[Vort]

Could you explain this more? Weren't the Urim and Thumim lost when the First Temple was destroyed? Or are these other objects that go by similar names?

Mormons believe the Urim and Thummim to be an actual physical object (despite the plural name). Joseph Smith described what it looked like; Googling it or looking it up on Wikipedia will surely yield this information, if you are interested. We are taught that very early inhabitants of the Americas, brought here by the hand of God, had the Urim and Thummim, so that would imply there was more than one.

[pam]

Urim and Thummim - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

[WmLee]

My undestanding is that the Urim and Thumim were placed with the plates after Joseph Smith finished his work with them.

[Vanhin]

Hi forum,

I was analysing some material that Vanhin sent me to study. To be honest I was browsing fairly quickly in the book of Alma and came across this interesting description of a device used for navigation. Kind of a compass called 'Liahona'.

Now this is very interesting because of the etymology:

ליה – L'Yah - Unto Yah / In the direction of Yah

חנה – Honah - Graciousness

So this would be an instrument believed to "lead towards G-d's graciousness". Pretty interesting how the underlying Hebrew works.

Sadly it doesn't explain much about how the instrument worked though.

b'shalom

That is a direct hit IMO. The Liahona acted as a type of compass, that directed them where to travel, and also provided spiritual instruction from God to Lehi and his family. It worked according to their faith and diligence. It is seen as symbolic of the word of God, that will lead a person to Christ according to their faith and diligence.

Here is a link and some more info on the object.

Guide to the Scriptures: Liahona

Regards,

Vanhin.

[Vanhin]

Concerning the Urim and Thummim, our Guide to the Scriptures has the following to say about it:

Instruments prepared by God to assist man in obtaining revelation and in translating languages. In the Hebrew language the words mean “lights and perfections.” The Urim and Thummim consist of two stones set in silver bows and sometimes used with a breastplate (D&C 17: 1; JS-H 1: 35, 42, 52). This earth will become a great Urim and Thummim in its sanctified and immortal state (D&C 130: 6-9). (Guide to the Scriptures: Urim and Thummim)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Just_A_Guy]

Just to clarify: the Urim and Thummim spoken of in Mormonism are not the same physical object as the Urim and Thummim possessed by the High Priest of Israel. The one in Mormonism originated (we believe) shortly after the Tower of Babel.

TheKabalist, I seem to recall hearing that Judaism preserves legends that Noah also had a Urim and Thummim?

[beefche]

Do ya'll ever wonder if some of the stuff that is described in the scriptures are modern day things? Or even things from the future that we've yet to develop?

For example, I can totally see how an Iphone was the Liahona. Iphone has scriptures, email (wonder what God's email addy is??) and GPS with directions in words or on a map--yeah, I know the Liahona had 2 spindles--but does that mean they were sticking out of the thing? Couldn't it be that the spindles were on the screen and Nephi described it the best he knew how?

[RanMan]

Do ya'll ever wonder if some of the stuff that is described in the scriptures are modern day things? Or even things from the future that we've yet to develop?

For example, I can totally see how an Iphone was the Liahona. Iphone has scriptures, email (wonder what God's email addy is??) and GPS with directions in words or on a map--yeah, I know the Liahona had 2 spindles--but does that mean they were sticking out of the thing? Couldn't it be that the spindles were on the screen and Nephi described it the best he knew how?

I hadn't thought of that before, but I will now. Very interesting concept.

:)

[thekabalist]

Just to clarify: the Urim and Thummim spoken of in Mormonism are not the same physical object as the Urim and Thummim possessed by the High Priest of Israel. The one in Mormonism originated (we believe) shortly after the Tower of Babel.

TheKabalist, I seem to recall hearing that Judaism preserves legends that Noah also had a Urim and Thummim?

Is this what you mean perhaps?

Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism: Tzohar: Gem of Noah, Light of Heaven

[Generally_Me]

That's way interesting, I always thought of it as a "window", probably since that's how so many translate it. It sounds pretty familiar, too....Ether 3:

1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height, and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent dglass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:

2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these bthings which I have molten out of the rock.

4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all apower, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

5 Behold, O Lord, thou canst do this. We know that thou art able to show forth great power, which looks small unto the understanding of men.

[Vanhin]

Is this what you mean perhaps?

Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism: Tzohar: Gem of Noah, Light of Heaven

In Mormonism we do consider both objects Urim and Thumimm, what Jesoph Smith received and what the High Priests used to use. The version of the object, that Joseph Smith received, was like spectacles, and are used by seers to interpret ancient writings. That was one of the methods Joseph used to translate the Book of Mormon, for instance.

The liahona was a brass, ball shaped compass thing.

That said, the Liahona did receive messages from God from time to time to the travelers, so in that sense it was similar in function to the Urim and Thumimm that the Aaronic High Priest used.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

Do ya'll ever wonder if some of the stuff that is described in the scriptures are modern day things? Or even things from the future that we've yet to develop?

For example, I can totally see how an Iphone was the Liahona. Iphone has scriptures, email (wonder what God's email addy is??) and GPS with directions in words or on a map--yeah, I know the Liahona had 2 spindles--but does that mean they were sticking out of the thing? Couldn't it be that the spindles were on the screen and Nephi described it the best he knew how?

Except iPhones aren't powered by the faith and diligence we give to God's word. :)

But, I do believe it was a high tech device that God developed or had.

[Rhoades]

Do ya'll ever wonder if some of the stuff that is described in the scriptures are modern day things? Or even things from the future that we've yet to develop?

For example, I can totally see how an Iphone was the Liahona. Iphone has scriptures, email (wonder what God's email addy is??) and GPS with directions in words or on a map--yeah, I know the Liahona had 2 spindles--but does that mean they were sticking out of the thing? Couldn't it be that the spindles were on the screen and Nephi described it the best he knew how?

This was an interesting post to come across. Last summer I thought it'd be cool to have an iPhone act as my own little Liahona. There wasn't a Liahona app already available, so I created it: Liahona iPhone App - Home

On itunes: iTunes Store

I think of the iPhone (and similar devices) when reading about the white stone (Doctrine and Covenants 130 ). And think of passwords when reading about the key word. BTW - my iPhone is black but now I kind of wish I got white. :)

[deseretgov]

An interesting thought I had. Could the Liahona also have served as a communications device. Say when Lehi's group arrived in th new world and encountered local tribes. Could the Liahona have displayed the translation of whatever a person in anothe language was saying? And then also translate what Lehi's party was saying.

[ozzy]

dgov, thats an interesting thought. Did they encounter local tribes though? I thought the only other people there were the people of Zarahemla (who I thought also came from Jerusalem), and Coriatumer of the Jaredites.