Forgiveness

[Mirium]

Ok, so I've been studying the atonement recently and particularly with regard to forgiveness. How do we use and apply the atonement to forgive another. If we don't forgive others their tresspasses however harsh we cannot be forgiven for our own.

From my studies it seems it is far easier to apply the atonement and forgive if the person is no longer a part of our lives or if issues can be resolved with the person, but what about using and applying the atonement when the person is constantly in your life on a daily basis and it is someone who had come to a point where they depend on you for their needs and security and refused to resolve things with you, and you found it difficult to even be around them (I'm trying to create a worst possible senario)

We are commanded to love our enemies and bless them that hurt us. To me that seems like an awful big ask and I'm not sure I could do it yet I know it would be essential for our progression. How could you apply the atonement to that situation and learn to overcome your feelings.

[stormwitch]

We are commanded to love our enemies and bless them that hurt us. To me that seems like an awful big ask and I'm not sure I could do it yet I know it would be essential for our progression. How could you apply the atonement to that situation and learn to overcome your feelings.

Some time ago I read in a book that the Hebrew word that is used for "love your enemy" is different from the one for feelings as in loving your parents, spouse, etc.) and describes an action...like do something loving to them. (Anybody who is in that subject, please correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't believe that we need to love these people from the deepest bottom of our heart. We should act friendly and really apply the golden rule. And if we are eager to help some friends in need, we should be even more eager to help our enemies.

If we do so, we might be able to help them change their heart even if they did things to us on purpose and neither regret them nor seek our forgiveness. And even if they don't change, we can say for ourselves: We have done our best, and nobody can blame us.

Taking revenge or holding grudges... "tit for tat"... all those things will keep the Spirit away from us.

Summary: forgiving means not that you have to have feelings for a person that hurt you, it only means that you have to be "nice"!

[Traveler]

Ok, so I've been studying the atonement recently and particularly with regard to forgiveness. How do we use and apply the atonement to forgive another. If we don't forgive others their tresspasses however harsh we cannot be forgiven for our own.

From my studies it seems it is far easier to apply the atonement and forgive if the person is no longer a part of our lives or if issues can be resolved with the person, but what about using and applying the atonement when the person is constantly in your life on a daily basis and it is someone who had come to a point where they depend on you for their needs and security and refused to resolve things with you, and you found it difficult to even be around them (I'm trying to create a worst possible senario)

We are commanded to love our enemies and bless them that hurt us. To me that seems like an awful big ask and I'm not sure I could do it yet I know it would be essential for our progression. How could you apply the atonement to that situation and learn to overcome your feelings.

Forgiving others is the understanding and belief in the Christ that has made himself a sacrifice for all sins. If we have difficulty in forgiving others it is a clear indication that are belief and faith in Christ is lacking and is not complete - and may not be strong enough to deliver us from our own sins as well.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

what about using and applying the atonement when the person is constantly in your life on a daily basis and it is someone who had come to a point where they depend on you for their needs and security and refused to resolve things with you, and you found it difficult to even be around them (I'm trying to create a worst possible senario)

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily imply having the person in your life. If this person is a parent, your duty is to honor them. That doesn't mean you have to be around them all the time. Remember stewardships. You have a stewardship over your own safety. If someone is causing you or those within your stewardship harm, it's your duty to protect yourself or them.

Forgiveness does not mean 'stay a doormat', 'continue to be hurt', or anything of the sort.

Of course, if the thing standing between a person staying a victim and becoming a non-victim is a spine or some maturity, that's a different case all together.

LM

[Kishkumen_Called]

Forgive my forwardness, but if YOU are trying to forgive, you are not applying the Atonement - you are attempting to be your own savior.

I have found in those truly difficult cases (where I am clearly out of my depth due to my lack of experience, understanding, and maturity), that my "do that I can do" is ask the Lord to take this burden (offering up my resentment on the same altar as my "broken heart and contrite spirit" - or my weak attempt, anyways :) I place the burden on His shoulders, along with any expectation of the results and any residual desire to hang on to my hurt feelings (both out of my control), and He makes it possible for me to forgive. I often have to do things I wish I could avoid (apologize for my feelings towards the person, even though I felt they were clearly in the wrong), but sooner or later, He heals my broken heart.

That's' the best answer I have. It works for me.

Cheers.

[Mirium]

Summary: forgiving means not that you have to have feelings for a person that hurt you, it only means that you have to be "nice"!

I guess to forgive you have to love them but then again I don't think it says anywhere we have to like a person. I think it would be impossible to like every person we ever meet but I do believe we do have to love our enemies and sometimes I think we all can struggle with that. I do agree that to resent or to seek revenge though is wrong.

[Mirium]

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily imply having the person in your life. If this person is a parent, your duty is to honor them. That doesn't mean you have to be around them all the time. Remember stewardships. You have a stewardship over your own safety. If someone is causing you or those within your stewardship harm, it's your duty to protect yourself or them.

Forgiveness does not mean 'stay a doormat', 'continue to be hurt', or anything of the sort.

Of course, if the thing standing between a person staying a victim and becoming a non-victim is a spine or some maturity, that's a different case all together.

LM

Thankyou, Yes I agree we have to put our wellbeing and those of others first but then do all we can within our capabilities. We do have certain responsibilities.

LM, please could you explain further you last sentence. I don't quite understand it.

[Mirium]

Forgive my forwardness, but if YOU are trying to forgive, you are not applying the Atonement - you are attempting to be your own savior.

I have found in those truly difficult cases (where I am clearly out of my depth due to my lack of experience, understanding, and maturity), that my "do that I can do" is ask the Lord to take this burden (offering up my resentment on the same altar as my "broken heart and contrite spirit" - or my weak attempt, anyways :) I place the burden on His shoulders, along with any expectation of the results and any residual desire to hang on to my hurt feelings (both out of my control), and He makes it possible for me to forgive. I often have to do things I wish I could avoid (apologize for my feelings towards the person, even though I felt they were clearly in the wrong), but sooner or later, He heals my broken heart.

That's' the best answer I have. It works for me.

Cheers.

That is great advice and I don't mind your forwardness atall. I agree with you that I do not apply the atonement fully in all areas of my life, YET, but that is why I am trying to study it to learn to apply it. I haved learnt so much from my studies but I don't think its just me I think many people struggle to apply it. For me its a massive step but also the answer to finding peace in life.

[Kishkumen_Called]

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily imply having the person in your life. If this person is a parent, your duty is to honor them. That doesn't mean you have to be around them all the time. Remember stewardships. You have a stewardship over your own safety. If someone is causing you or those within your stewardship harm, it's your duty to protect yourself or them.

Forgiveness does not mean 'stay a doormat', 'continue to be hurt', or anything of the sort.

Of course, if the thing standing between a person staying a victim and becoming a non-victim is a spine or some maturity, that's a different case all together.

LM

I both agree and disagree. We do have a duty, including to safeguard our own well being. However, I think the second great commandment supercedes duty - we're supposed to have charity / Christ-like love for ALL people, include those who have offended us.

However, I believe that a Christ-like love does NOT equate to being a 'doormat'; in fact, I believe it's quite the opposite. Christ loved those individuals who hated him; however, he condemned their actions, protected those more vulnerable than Himself, and had a wonderful sense of self-worth. As we are his brothers and sisters, I believe we have the same capacity and duty. However, we must rely upon His grace to receive those blessings (much in the same way we would petition for any OTHER gift of the Spirit, which is how I characterize forgiveness).

My two cents.

Cheers.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I've had lots of opportunities to forgive others all my life. I was good at as a teenager and young adult, but as I've gotten older, it's become much harder.

I had a situation years ago where a leader in our Ward wronged me terribly and publicly. Couldn't sleep over it. I had actually apologized for my perceived part in making her angry, more as a desire to repair the relationship, than because I felt I had actually done anything wrong. In spite of this, she continued with extremely vindictive behavior. It hurt me to the core, to the point I felt like I didn't want to attend the Ward any more, notwithstanding my role as a key leader in the congregation.

I tried all the things I was supposed to as suggested by the Savior -- I had already apologized, and it wasn't accepted, so further apology wasn't in order. I went to an activity sponsored by this person, and gave a rather chunky sum of money for her auxiliary, thinking it would heal my heart. It didn't. I prayed to forgive, but generally felt completely hurt, and wronged. Also, early in the conflict, I also withdrew from the situation that had caused the vindictive behavior, giving her full control. She continued this attitude of strutting about that she had "won" and seemed oblivious to the impact of her behavior and the need to make amends.

To make a long story short -- I asked for a meeting with her, a few of her associates that were involved, and two members of our Bishopric. I expressed how her behavior had affected me. And she eventually apologized.

After this, I was able to return to full "activity" -- that's what it took for me to forgive.

Now, I know we are supposed to forgive even when there is no apology, or when the offender doesn't even acknowledge they had done wrong, or when the offender is never punished. But for me, insisting that we deal with this face to face, in a controlled environment, and seeing a show of support from the people above me was necessary, as my other attempts had failed over a period of several months was necessary.

To this day, my attitude toward the woman is one of mistrust. I don't trust her as she showed a terrible interpersonal judgment and apparent blindness to the impact her behavior would have on the most average person. I fear she might do it again, and I have to protect my own testimony and activity.

If I was to work with her on a committee, I would probably attempt to avoid the situation as diplomatically as possible, and if this was not possible, would work alongside her in a way that is passive - doing my part, but not engaging in any functional/good/positive disagreement about the best way to the get the job done. This is out of self-protection, not bitterness, given the tendencies she's shown.

Have I forgiven her? I think so -- I no longer feel angry or bitter about the situation, and feel no desire to hurt her in anyway -- just mistrust.

My point? I don't think we are required to trust people as part of the forgiveness process - but we are expected to heal our hearts so we feel no bitterness toward them. I also don't demand perfect Christlike forgiveness from people anymore when they share their hurt feelings -- others have expected it of me, and it only made matters wrose. I try to help hurt people explore their feelings, emphathize with them, and let them know it's normal to take time. I believe that discussing the wrong with the person is important and useful in some situations, and I believe the new testament even suggests we should go to our brother or sister to resolve conflicts.

Edited November 29, 2009 by mormonmusic

[Flyonthewall]

In my opinion, forgiveness is for the person that has been offended. Forgiveness is to harbor no ill will, anger or hatred towards the person that wronged you. It is the anger and hatred that will do the most damage to the person that holds on to it.

[Kishkumen_Called]

My point? I don't think we are required to trust people as part of the forgiveness process - but we are expected to heal our hearts so we feel no bitterness toward them.

I don't think you're expected to heal anything. The Lord has stated that He will take that burden for you and heal your broken heart.

"Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound" D&C 138:42.

The hardest part is being patient until He does.

As for trust - the 'ole rattlesnake/scorpion story - "You knew what I was when you picked me up." Charity, the love the Savior requires of us, is not blind to the faults of others. In fact, charity is very cognizant of where others are in their lives, how they should be treated, how YOU should feel safe in your interactions, etc. Life's messy - but He is abundantly good to each of us, including you.

Cheers

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree -- forgiveness happens when the bitterness is gone. Now, that doesn't mean one has to trust the other person, particularly if there is no remorse and you feel the person might do it again. I also believe distance from the person helps if the hurt is deep; out of site, out of mind.

I also believe one should try to resolve the situation that caused the hurt with the person where possible -- to cause full repair of the relationship. Often, they don't know they even hurt you!

But this isn't always possible due to lack of maturity on the part of the person, the depth of the emotions involved, etcetera. I've done it, and when handled maturely, can do much to repair relationships and bitter hearts.

[Guest mormonmusic]

"The hardest part is being patient until He does."

I've never considered whether He literally does it, or whether it's proactive application of His principles ourselves that does it, but I know this -- it takes a lot longer for some people than others. And when people are hurting, bitter, etcetera, one needs to help them by being patient, without prolonging their period of unforgiveness.

[NeuroTypical]

LM, please could you explain further you last sentence. I don't quite understand it.

Sure Mirium. My last sentence: "Of course, if the thing standing between a person staying a victim and becoming a non-victim is a spine or some maturity, that's a different case all together."

Sometimes, we can get carried away with our status as victim, and it can cloud our understanding of what's required of us. Extreme (but not uncommon) examples would be a wife in a severely physically abusive relationship, who interprets her duty to forgive in ways that have her remain a victim. If you ask any cop who has ever dealt with the public, you'll hear stories about domestic violence calls where the woman refused to press charges, or places where the cops just go over and over again because the woman keeps going back or keeps letting him back in.

So yes, it's our duty to forgive. Yes, we are commanded to love our enemies and bless them that hurt us. Yes, we should have charity and look for the good in people and bless the lives of others and love all people as fellow heirs of a divine parentage. But when we keep saying this stuff over and over to ourselves as a way of allowing us to be hurt over and over again, or to ignore what's happening to our kids, then we're doing ourself or them a grave disservice.

And from what I can tell, cowardice and immaturity are two of the biggest reasons people do this.

I hope that makes sense.

LM

[Dove]

Hey, Mirium;

How are you? It's nice to see your post. I remember how kind you have been to me past times I've posted on lds net.

I hope it's not too late for me to enter into this discussion~ I appreciate being able to voice my feelings on this topic...

I've had to work for quite awhile on learning to forgive others. I was once counseled in a priesthood blessing that in order to forgive myself, I would have to forgive the other person.....

I have often prayed to forgive others, because I have harbored so much hurt, sorrow and anger towards the "wrongs" others have done me....

I had an interesting experience not too long ago I would like to relate....A girl I knew really upset me at church. I won't go into detail, but I was deeply hurt and held this, along with anger and resentment towards her, for years. Last week I found out they found her body in her apartment. She died due to alcohol poisoning. Wow, this really jolted me. I couldn't feel peace or get her out of my mind for a few days; until I called my mom and explained to her the whole thing. The first thing she said was that I needed to fovgive her and lay it at the Lord's feet. Upon my mom saying that, I started to feel the peace I was searching for.

I realized so many things after this. As I prayed for forgiveness this time, I felt so liberated to do so. It was like a monkey being taken off my back. I realized the events that happened that caused me to feel so hurt weren't necessarily her fault. I also realized the importance of not blaming myself for other's unkindness, and not to take personally when that unkindness is directed towards me. Because for me, forgivenss becomes really self-empowering. I no longer allow my hurt feelings to overwhelm, control, or consume me.....This has taken years for me to develop.

Don't get me wrong; I believe that "righteous" anger is appropriate at times. Especially when it causes one to take action in defending themselves, others, or the truth. For me, the harboring of it is what is detrimental, especially to myself.

Take Care~

[Kishkumen_Called]

These posts have made me reflect on the purpose of forgiveness and what it has accomplished in my life. One of the areas of growth has been in my personal maturity. The more I forgive, the less things bother me. What was once offensive now rolls off my back. The unfortunate thing is that this gift waxes and wanes.

Please don't misconstrue my comment as referring to anyone else's comment or post. I respect that we are in different places, have different skills, strengths and weakness. My comment refers to myself alone - that by forgiving, the Spirit acts as a lubricant to the friction of life and I am less sensitive to offense. That gives me hope.

Cheers

[pam]

Sometimes, we can get carried away with our status as victim, and it can cloud our understanding of what's required of us. Extreme (but not uncommon) examples would be a wife in a severely physically abusive relationship, who interprets her duty to forgive in ways that have her remain a victim. If you ask any cop who has ever dealt with the public, you'll hear stories about domestic violence calls where the woman refused to press charges, or places where the cops just go over and over again because the woman keeps going back or keeps letting him back in.

Are you saying a lot of these women go back because they feel it's their responsibility to forgive? If that's what you are saying I would disagree. Many go back and stay in these relationship because of extreme fear. Seems strange they would go back because of that..But the abuser has so much control, they think that's what they need to do to stop the abuse. Unfortunately, that's usually not the case.

[Mirium]

I would just like to thank you all for your responses and for sharing your experiences. You have helped me alot in dealing with my feelings.

My two biggest hurdles are that I have no choice but to have this person in my life on a regular basis and I know it would be far easier if I didn't have to and the other hurdle is that when I tried to resolve things with this person they refused to discuss matters. If I could change these two things I know I could manage it a lot easier.

You helped me to see that this is a process that can take a long time and that there is no quick fix. I feel strengthened and feel stronger to continue to deal with this situation for now anyway but it still distresses me very much.

Thankyou LM for explaining further that helped alot.

Dove, its good to hear from you again, I hope your ok, I'm still plodding, sometimes just one day at a time but I'm getting there.

Just want you all to know how greatful I am to be a member of this church and for all my Saviour suffered for me. It brings so much into my life, don't know where I'd be without it.

[Dove]

I would just like to thank you all for your responses and for sharing your experiences. You have helped me alot in dealing with my feelings.

My two biggest hurdles are that I have no choice but to have this person in my life on a regular basis and I know it would be far easier if I didn't have to and the other hurdle is that when I tried to resolve things with this person they refused to discuss matters. If I could change these two things I know I could manage it a lot easier.

You helped me to see that this is a process that can take a long time and that there is no quick fix. I feel strengthened and feel stronger to continue to deal with this situation for now anyway but it still distresses me very much.

Thankyou LM for explaining further that helped alot.

Dove, its good to hear from you again, I hope your ok, I'm still plodding, sometimes just one day at a time but I'm getting there.

Thanks for you concern Mirium :)....

Life is a brutal battle for me. But, I just wanted to say that one thing this teaches me, along with learning to forgive, is the importance of turning myself to God and the Saviour....and myself. To learn to trust Him and to love myself/forgive myself as I go along as well as others, as He does. For me, it's really not about the people who have offended me; it's about my focus. My focus on coming to Christ and making it about relating to Him as He would have me do (in a Godly way) through the Holy Ghost....

I hope this helps. It sounds like you're in a really difficult situation. I will keep you in my prayers, as the Spirit knows so much better what you're going through and how to succor you. I will pray that you come to a greater understanding on how to feel/deal with this person.

[MaMeeshkaMow]

In the Book of Mormon we see there was a separation of the "Ites". This tell me that yes it is important to forgive but in some extreme cases, it's best to move on and not to be in a position to keep getting hurt.