All the World Should be Taxed...

[Snow]

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

Why would Rome want everyone to leave the home in which they lived, where they could be easily counted and taxed, and travel to their ancestral homes to conduct a census and then tax them where mass confusion and avoidance would plague the effort? What good would a census of ancestral homes do?

Side issue for the global flood aficionados - was literally the whole world to be taxed as described in Luke?

[Jbs2763]

I guess Ceasar was a democrat

[Epic]

I think this world for them was as far as their empire reached, which was large at the time.

@Jbs

The current democratic president cut taxes.

[Jbs2763]

I think this world for them was as far as their empire reached, which was large at the time.

@Jbs

The current democratic president cut taxes.

really...this healthcare crap is a tax cut?? i make minimum wage and my taxes went UP

[Just_A_Guy]

Just a thought:

If I'm a local administrator over Nazareth (or Bethlehem, or any other city in Herod's domain), and I know my city treasury will be assessed according to how many people Herod's flunkies find in my town on tax day, I'm going to want to have a nice small population on that day. I might even tell my townspeople that they're supposed to go to their ancestral homes to be counted, even if that isn't necessarily what Herod wanted.

If Bethlehem had later complained about what Nazareth had done--that could partially explain the "massacre of innocents" (It sounds like Herod to say "OK, you whiners--you want a smaller population, you got it.")

Of course, in order to document that Nazareth ever indulged in such a scheme, one would first have to document that Nazareth even existed at the time of the birth of Christ. Right, Snow?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Dravin]

I remember vaguely from something I read once upon a time (how's that for an authoritative cite?) that the whole ancestral cities thing would the Jews doing. Basically Ceaser would have given the order to tax and wouldn't have given a flying toga how the assessment was made, his administrators in Judea could have required they all hop around on one foot. As far as why they'd bother, it was a concession to Jewish ideas at the time.

So yeah... basically I got nutin'.

[Moksha]

Snow, I have asked myself similar questions before and the answer was that I was staring too closely at the story. As you know from the great flood debate, the contortions one must make to justify its literalness can cause cramps. There must be some reason for Joseph and Mary to leave their home and travel to Bethlehem to give birth in a manger and that fits the bill as good as anything else. What is important is the message of Jesus and not the foreshadowing.

:)

[talisyn]

really...this healthcare crap is a tax cut?? i make minimum wage and my taxes went UP

You got taxed on something that hasn't passed yet? Wow, we really live in exciting times

Now, about all the world getting taxed, I'm kind've of the opinion it was a tax/census thing. Maybe the economy was stagnant and the gov't wanted the give the service industry a boost ^^

[OmahaLDS]

Roman taxes were based on a census system. Records were not readily available in all points of the Republic (the internet did not exist), so people had to go to where their records where, ergo Joseph went to his birthplace. Birth records were relatively good at the time.

[OmahaLDS]

I guess Ceasar was a democrat

Ceasar was dead. Octavian was a Republican. In fact, he was the head Republican.

[Jbs2763]

and the republicans of today are nothing like the republicans of Lincoln's time....or the 60s for that matter

[Jbs2763]

all i know is mid year my taxes went up after a supposd "tax cut" was passed...cant wait till this obamacare goes thru

[ozzy]

Ceasar was dead. Octavian was a Republican. In fact, he was the head Republican.

I am slightly confused by this, and please forgive my ignorance of history. If Ceasar was dead, how did he send out a decree?

[pam]

Okay this is about taxes in the NT not the taxes of today. So let's keep today's taxes out of the conversation. Please?

[OmahaLDS]

I am slightly confused by this, and please forgive my ignorance of history. If Ceasar was dead, how did he send out a decree?

Julius Caesar was killed and he left everything, including his name to his heir, his nephew Octavian. Eventually Octavian assumed the name Augustus, at the prompting of his wife if you believe Robert Graves. So he assumed the name Caesar. It would later be title in the Empire. The Caesar in the Bible was Octavian.

[bytor2112]

I think this world for them was as far as their empire reached, which was large at the time.

@Jbs

The current democratic president cut taxes.

No, he didn't cut taxes. He did provide a meaningless tax rebate....the same meaningless type of rebate that Bush did. Taxes are going up for everyone thanks to our Democratic friends and the Bush tax cuts sunset in 2010...everyone gets a tax increase, top to bottom.

Edited December 28, 2009 by bytor2112

[ozzy]

Julius Caesar was killed and he left everything, including his name to his heir, his nephew Octavian. Eventually Octavian assumed the name Augustus, at the prompting of his wife if you believe Robert Graves. So he assumed the name Caesar. It would later be title in the Empire. The Caesar in the Bible was Octavian.

Ahh right. Thanks. It makes sense now. :)

[Prodigal_Son]

The Roman world did no such thing for the collection of taxes. This was longstanding Jewish tradition to which Rome acquiesced to minimize the boat-rocking.

[OmahaLDS]

The Roman world did no such thing for the collection of taxes. This was longstanding Jewish tradition to which Rome acquiesced to minimize the boat-rocking.

"In the late 1st century BC, and after considerably more Roman expansion, Augustus essentially put an end to tax farming. Complaints from provincials for excessive assessments and large, un-payable debts ushered in the final days of this lucrative business. The Publicani continued to exist as money lenders and entrepreneurs, but easy access to wealth through taxes was gone. Tax farming was replaced by direct taxation early in the Empire and each province was required to pay a wealth tax of about 1% and a flat poll tax on each adult. This new procedure, of course, required regular census taking to evaluate the taxable number of people and their income/wealth status. Taxation in this environment switched mainly from one of owned property and wealth to that of an income tax. As a result, the taxable yield varied greatly based on economic conditions, but theoretically, the process was fairer and less open to corruption."

Emphasis mine.

Roman Taxes

[jadams_4040]

I guess Ceasar was a democrat

During bushs reign our property taxes went up 900 percent, only a slight year to year uncrease in payroll taxes but 900 percent property tax uncrease plus a number of other bussiness tax increases I;E... $200 a year because it rains e;t;c.... But bush didnt raise taxes? {hah!}:)

[Just_A_Guy]

Jadams, property taxes go to your state government, not to the feds. Unless you lived in Texas while Dubya was governor there, you're ascribing blame to the wrong people.

/threadjack.

[OmahaLDS]

I think this world for them was as far as their empire reached, which was large at the time.

@Jbs

The current democratic president cut taxes.

The Empire did not really exist at the time.

[bytor2112]

During bushs reign our property taxes went up 900 percent, only a slight year to year uncrease in payroll taxes but 900 percent property tax uncrease plus a number of other bussiness tax increases I;E... $200 a year because it rains e;t;c.... But bush didnt raise taxes? {hah!}:)

Jadams,......you are precious. Oh my, but you do tickle me.

[bytor2112]

During bushs reign our property taxes went up 900 percent, only a slight year to year uncrease in payroll taxes but 900 percent property tax uncrease plus a number of other bussiness tax increases I;E... $200 a year because it rains e;t;c.... But bush didnt raise taxes? {hah!}:)

and the award for most satirical comment goes to.....jadams.:clap: ( This is satire, right?)

Edited December 28, 2009 by bytor2112

[Epic]

The Empire did not really exist at the time.

True.. was a republic after ceasar