St. Augustine quote, in light of recent threads

[Connie]

I've been reading The Confessions of St. Augustine. In light of all the recent "what if" type threads, i thought some might find this quote interesting.

"if God commands a nation to do something contrary to its customs or constitutions, it must be done even if it has never been done in that country before. If it is a practice which has been discontinued, it must be resumed, and if it was not a law before, it must be enacted. In his own kingdom a king has the right to make orders which neither he nor any other has ever made before. Obedience to his orders is not against the common interest of the community; in fact, if they were disobeyed, the common interest would suffer, because it is the general agreement in human communities that the ruler is obeyed. How much more right, then, has God to give commands, since he is the Ruler of all creation and all his creatures must obey his commandments without demur! For all must yield to God just as, in the government of human society, the lesser authority must yield to the greater."

[Guest]

This would be very true if God would say what he wants in a booming voice for all to hear. Unfortunately, God doesn't work that way. He has to go through prophets, seers, and revelators. That's the problem. Because, everybody have their own interpretation of who those people are...

[Wisc]

I live my life by the words of St. Augustine.

"Give me chastity and continence, but not yet!"

[ozzy]

Have you been watching 'Saint'? :)

[Traveler]

Most interesting - I would like to know how people think that G-d would speak to a nation? Would he send someone "out of the blue" to tell them to repent?

How do we determine someone is speaking for G-d?

I understand the LDS view but to be honest I an not sure how the rest of Christianity would answer this question.

The Traveler

[Snow]

I've been reading The Confessions of St. Augustine. In light of all the recent "what if" type threads, i thought some might find this quote interesting.

"if God commands a nation to do something contrary to its customs or constitutions, it must be done even if it has never been done in that country before. If it is a practice which has been discontinued, it must be resumed, and if it was not a law before, it must be enacted. In his own kingdom a king has the right to make orders which neither he nor any other has ever made before. Obedience to his orders is not against the common interest of the community; in fact, if they were disobeyed, the common interest would suffer, because it is the general agreement in human communities that the ruler is obeyed. How much more right, then, has God to give commands, since he is the Ruler of all creation and all his creatures must obey his commandments without demur! For all must yield to God just as, in the government of human society, the lesser authority must yield to the greater."

What Augustine really meant was if the Pope says that God wants a nation to do something, the nation should believe the Pope.

Pass

[marianomarini]

What Augustine really meant was if the Pope says that God wants a nation to do something, the nation should believe the Pope.

Pass

This will apply even to the Prophet. But there is a big difference between Augustine and LDS thought.

The first claim for obedience while the second claim for testimony!

This is the great message of Restauration.

[Snow]

This will apply even to the Prophet. But there is a big difference between Augustine and LDS thought.

The first claim for obedience while the second claim for testimony!

This is the great message of Restauration.

Okay - what is the most recent example of God commanding, through the Prophet, s nation to do something contrary to it's custom or law?

[CraziCrow]

Okay - what is the most recent example of God commanding, through the Prophet, s nation to do something contrary to it's custom or law?

Not to look at pornographic material?

[ozzy]

A nation as a government? Probably not since Bible or Book of Mormon times. A nation as in the people? Happens every time the prophet talks about doctrine. The problem is that no one listens.

[ozzy]

Not to look at pornographic material?

That is a very good example of the prophet commanding the people of the nation, and I agree. But I think that Snows context is specific to a prophet walking up to the leaders of the nation and telling them God wanted them to change.

[CraziCrow]

That is a very good example of the prophet commanding the people of the nation, and I agree. But I think that Snows context is specific to a prophet walking up to the leaders of the nation and telling them God wanted them to change.

I think the closest thing to that would be the family procclaimation.

That wasn't specific for leaders, but included them. However it was directly addresses to 'nations' and would be contray to alot of cultures. Perhaps that would count snow?

[Misshalfway]

What Augustine really meant was if the Pope says that God wants a nation to do something, the nation should believe the Pope.

Pass

Well, they went from killing all the Christians to ruling the empire through the religion.

[Justice]

I think the quote is saying God has the right to do so, and the nation should heed God's voice. I consider both of those things true. But, clearly God will speak through His chosen vessels.

The error people make is assuming the Church is here just for the members.

[ozzy]

I think the closest thing to that would be the family procclaimation.

That wasn't specific for leaders, but included them. However it was directly addresses to 'nations' and would be contray to alot of cultures. Perhaps that would count snow?

Now that you mention it, I hadn't thought about the fp. I suppose that would count.

[Traveler]

Okay - what is the most recent example of God commanding, through the Prophet, s nation to do something contrary to it's custom or law?

My answer to this question would be the “The Family A Proclamation to the World” from the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

The Traveler

[OmahaLDS]

My answer to this question would be the “The Family A Proclamation to the World” from the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

The Traveler

Where in the Proclamation does God command the government to do something?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon OmahaLDS. It is a pleasure to meet you! :)

Where in the Proclamation does God command the government to do something?

I believe that the last couple of sentences in the Proclamation to the Family qualify as commandments to government and nations:

"[W]e warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

Regards,

Finrock

[OmahaLDS]

Good afternoon OmahaLDS. It is a pleasure to meet you! :)

I believe that the last couple of sentences in the Proclamation to the Family qualify as commandments to government and nations:

"[W]e warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

Regards,

Finrock

What measures?

Edit: I think we get into dangerous territory when the government actually starts defining family and taking action to fit the government definition. I am not sure government is really capable of doing something like defining family any more than they could define love.