Women more righteous than men

[Dravin]

Oh for heaven's sakes...I'm thinking HEP said that with tongue in cheek, waiting for some of these reactions.

HEP, anytime you need my superior righteousness, you let me know. I'll condescend to provide you with wisdom and guidance. Then you can have the power to make the RIGHT decisions.

Since you don't have the priesthood that means you can charge for it and it not be Priestcraft right?

[beefche]

Since you don't have the priesthood that means you can charge for it and it not be Priestcraft right?

Hey! I like the way you think!

HEP, your bill is in the mail. I take Mastercard, VISA and Discover.

[MeIRL]

Oh for heaven's sakes...I'm thinking HEP said that with tongue in cheek, waiting for some of these reactions.

You mistake my meaning. I was joking just exactly as much as HEP was. I was serious only to the extent that he was serious.

[ryanh]

jokes making fun of men really make me angry.

You mean, like This One here on LDS.net?

It's one thing to have fun with the patent differences between the genders, and how we operate so fundamentally different in some stereotypical aspects, but any time either gender is bashed as being less than the other overall, it disgusts me. Absolutely feel the same way when women as a whole are put down as 'less'.

Finding humor in such jokes reflects deeply on our own issues and frustrations. Not the lest bit in reality.

[Elphaba]

Thanks for the pep talk!

You're welcome!

I've tried it before. Everybody is convinced that the injustices I face are insignificant, and I become instantly unwelcome in any conversation where I try to talk about them.

I believe you. I have faced the same, though I obviously can't be sure if it's exactly what you mean. But when it's happened to me it has had a chilling effect and I feel hurt, afraid, and invisible.

It sucks!

Elphaba

Edited February 11, 2010 by Elphaba

[Moksha]

Is this also your response to the women who whine and moan about how badly the Church "patriarchy" treats them? Or is your condescension reserved solely for the men?

MeIRL, that quote:

Wouldn't this be an opportunity to rise above the unrighteousness of his fellow parishioners who are doing that? Walking in the valley of shadow while fearing no evil and all that stuff.

was in relation to:

Originally Posted by hyohko

2) Being unmarried, LDS, and male is (either by perception or by actual action) so stigmatized that any poor man who finds himself in such a situation is automatically judged to be "gay"/"sinner"/"irresponsible"/"woman hater"/"porn addict" or (if divorced) "wife beater"/"child abuser," and subsequently treated as such. Instead of coming to church for the portion of God's love and healing to be received that Sunday, he meets critical and judging eyes, whispers in the hall, and a good deal of suspicion or even outright hostility. (You think I exaggerate?)

As you can note, it was a digression from the original topic, but was obviously something of great concern to Hyohko. My answer really had nothing to do with the relative degree of righteousness inherent in both women and men. However, I do frequently take the side of women, because I perceive they have been give the short end of the stick in throughout much of history.

:)

[hyohko]

Thanks to all for addressing it - and sorry for the thread-jack. It is deeply concerning to me, especially when I see the fruits of any one group (white/black, male/female, rich/poor) assuming that somehow they are more righteous. The tendency for us to assign sin where none may exist is the problem that I wish we would confront more often; our own non-charitable judgments must be the first beam cast out of our eyes.

As to the opening topic, my response is unequivocal - I do not believe that men are any more or less evil than women (and naturally, no more or less Christ-like). Humans are human, just as prone to succumbing to temptation as the next soul. And as we all know, any sin is a separation from God, so we are all in the same boat together, trying to make it back home. We all need Christ just as much as the next man or woman.

I hope that steers the thread back on topic.

[ferretrunner]

Two reasons for few (if any) single men over 30 showing up at church:

1) Male mortality rates are higher. QED.

2) Being unmarried, LDS, and male is (either by perception or by actual action) so stigmatized that any poor man who finds himself in such a situation is automatically judged to be "gay"/"sinner"/"irresponsible"/"woman hater"/"porn addict" or (if divorced) "wife beater"/"child abuser," and subsequently treated as such. Instead of coming to church for the portion of God's love and healing to be received that Sunday, he meets critical and judging eyes, whispers in the hall, and a good deal of suspicion or even outright hostility. (You think I exaggerate?)

No wonder male retention is so difficult. We are so often stumbling blocks for our fellow brothers.

I'm sorry men are going through that. I know as a single woman over 30, I struggle with feeling out of place in Church. In a Church that places such a high emphasis on marriage, being a single is unusual. People being people, unfortunately, their lips flap.

I hope that is the experience in one ward and not the LDS general population.

We just had a man get his priesthood two weeks ago. He's a convert in his 40s and, if rumor has it, single. lol. My Sisters are already playing matchmaker.

[ferretrunner]

I am a woman. I am more righteous than some men and very much so less righteous than others. Righteousness is dependant upon the individual's choices, actions, knowledge, and decisions. Perhaps women's pyshcological aspects make it "easier" for us to be more spiritual. But, if we don't do the work to unwrap the gift, it is wasted. We don't progress. I think there is some truth to our pyshcological makeups being different. THat doesn't equate superiority.

It's hard in this society to have roles that are different- men holding the priesthood, women doing other work- without someone trying to place weight on them. Is priesthood more important than motherhood? Without priesthood, there's really no church. But without motherhood... the Church will die in a generation. No mothers, no children. The only new members will be the converts. So, which is more important?

I enjoy the good natured bantering between the sexes. It can be amusing and is not meant to be taken seriously or to attack either gender. Where it hurts is when it is meant to be disrepectful and demeaning. I don't like most jokes about women or men for that reason. Teasing is one thing. Insulting is something else.

[marts1]

I have no idea about women being more righteous but I do believe, they possess a much higher sense of morality then most men.

[jejo]

I have no idea about women being more righteous but I do believe, they possess a much higher sense of morality then most men.

I agree Marts1. There is no doubt there are big differences between males and females. Speaking in generalities of course. (always an exception). So what are the biggest weakness of males. Their s*xuality. The biggest weakness for females Self identity. (If you don't agree than that is probably another thread we could start.)

If a man gives in to his weakness its a serious sin. i.e. from p*rnography to adultery.

If a woman gives in to her weakness its not neccessarily a serious sin, although it can eventually lead to immorality if she is willing to go to extremes to find love, attention etc. but not usually (remember speaking in generalities) due to lust as in the case of men.

My experience has been women are more spiritual, more active. I have a special unique love for my daughters as opposed to my son. I often wondered if Heavenly Father feels the same way about his daughters.

Edited February 13, 2010 by jejo

[marts1]

As far as I'm concerned, no new thread needed.:) but I'm sure it would lead into many interesting thoughts. I used to wonder if this was because of the different methods males are brought up with as opposed to females until I learned about the different testostorone and estragene levels males and females are born with and the affects they have. Excuse the spelling plz.

Edited February 13, 2010 by marts1

[ferretrunner]

I agree Marts1. There is no doubt there are big differences between males and females. Speaking in generalities of course. (always an exception). So what are the biggest weakness of males. Their s*xuality. The biggest weakness for females Self identity. (If you don't agree than that is probably another thread we could start.)

If a man gives in to his weakness its a serious sin. i.e. from p*rnography to adultery.

If a woman gives in to her weakness its not neccessarily a serious sin, although it can eventually lead to immorality if she is willing to go to extremes to find love, attention etc. but not usually (remember speaking in generalities) due to lust as in the case of men.

My experience has been women are more spiritual, more active. I have a special unique love for my daughters as opposed to my son. I often wondered if Heavenly Father feels the same way about his daughters.

Jejo,

You make a good point. Many women struggle with self-identity and self esteem. Society often places a lot of stress on human sexuality and appearance. Super slim models, hunky men. Both are just looking at the outside of an individual. With women, for many generations, our identity has focused on who we marry and how many kids we have. Now, times have changed and women (and men also) are trying to figure out what it means.

The increased sex drive of men is both biological and sociological. There is a biologically stronger drive to have multiple partners. The more partners, the greater spread of the gentic material, the greater odds of survival of the gene pool. That's biology. Sociologically, men are rewarded by other men for being sexually active. It's also protrayed as a "manly" quality in the media.

For women, we tend to want a singular partner. We nuture and raise the child. Biologically, we were vunlerable when carrying children. Once born, the children and mothers were vulnerable and needed help. Men protected and hunted. Emotionally, we also tend to bond with our sexual partner.

Sociologically, in the US today- women face an interesting double message. It's glamourous to be sexy. But, if we engage in the same sexual behaviors as men, women are not respected. They're not "studs" they're "sluts." Women are espected to both protect our sexuality and not give in and yet, be available and willing partners. It's an intresting dichotomy.

I like the teaching of the Church that sexuality is sacred, for both genders. It places accountability on both and also the sacredness belongs to both.

Self identity in women... There's a song by a Scottish folk group called The Corries.

The song is about women over three generations and war. I do not recall all the words, because as a Soldier and a woman, it makes me tear up every time I listen to it.

I remember the refrain and bits of verse;

"The first time it was fathers, the last time it was sons.

In between, your husbands marched away with drums and guns.

But you never paused to question, you just went on with your lives

for all they taught you who to be was mothers, daughters, wives."

The verses speak of a young girl, barely remembering her father going off to war. She sees her mother reading the newspaper, with the lists of the killed in action. Eventually, a stranger from the fight appears on her doorstep. The implication is her father died.

The girl grows to a woman and marries. Her husband is called off to war. She goes to work, as the women in her generation did, to fill in for all the draftees. But, when the men return, the women "never trod on toes" and go back to being houswives. The woman's husband survive and they have a family.

"Your little girls grow to women and your little boys to men.

You wished you were dreaming when the call up came again.

But you hid your sadness as your bravely waved goodbye

but the photos on the matlepiece always made you cry."

The final verse speaks of the woman in her old age. The sons and daughters are grown, with their own families. But, the daughters see more to their lives than being "Mothers, daughters, wives." The implication is the women are now working and becoming more indepedent and finding their own identities instead of the societal expected ones. Or maybe in addition to the expectations.

I think that's where women are struggling. Who are we in addition to mothers, daughters, wives. Yes, we need to embrace that part of our identities, too. But, we are more. I will never be a mother. Yet, I am still a woman.

Sorry for the long post.

[MeIRL]

I have a special unique love for my daughters as opposed to my son.

If you love your son, you will never reveal this shameful secret, either to him or to your daughters who may later tell him. Take it to your grave with you, and pray that your merciful heavenly Father forgives you for such feelings.

I often wondered if Heavenly Father feels the same way about his daughters.

I have no doubt that God loves, cherishes, and values his sons every bit as much as he does his daughters.

[MeIRL]

I have no idea about women being more righteous but I do believe, they possess a much higher sense of morality then most men.

You might do well not to generalize your own spiritual deficiencies onto other men.

[pam]

If you love your son, you will never reveal this shameful secret, either to him or to your daughters who may later tell him. Take it to your grave with you, and pray that your merciful heavenly Father forgives you for such feelings.

I have no doubt that God loves, cherishes, and values his sons every bit as much as he does his daughters.

I don't understand what was so wrong with what he said. It's no secret that many fathers have a special bond with their daughters. One that they may not share with their son. Doesn't mean they love their children any less, but the love is different. Just like the love of a spouse would be different than the love of a child.

[jejo]

Thanks Pam, Im glad my frail communication skills somewhat made the point and you understood it. Unique love did not mean more love. Just like a love between Mother daughter is unique that I will never experience but it is very strong and very unique.

[pam]

I totally understood what you meant.

[MeIRL]

Thanks Pam, Im glad my frail communication skills somewhat made the point and you understood it. Unique love did not mean more love. Just like a love between Mother daughter is unique that I will never experience but it is very strong and very unique.

You wrote:

"I have a special unique love for my daughters as opposed to my son."

May we also therefore assume that you have a "special, unique" love for your son as opposed to your daughters?

[marts1]

Well I wasn't so sure...I'm glad it was clarifyed.:):)

[pam]

You wrote:

"I have a special unique love for my daughters as opposed to my son."

May we also therefore assume that you have a "special, unique" love for your son as opposed to your daughters?

I'm going to assume it.

[jejo]

Yes absolutely. Instead of giving a personal memoir of me and my family. just trying to stick to the subject of the thread. We are talking about Women. I was trying so hard not to go off on a tangent. Sorry I caused quite the tangent.

[marts1]

I barely noticed.:)

[pam]

Yes absolutely. Instead of giving a personal memoir of me and my family. just trying to stick to the subject of the thread. We are talking about Women. I was trying so hard not to go off on a tangent. Sorry I caused quite the tangent.

You didn't.

[Hemidakota]

Most of us have heard at some time or another that women are more righteous than men, more women will make it to the Celestial Kingdom, etc. Is this just one of those "cultural" church beliefs, or is there anything to back this up in scripture, doctrine, or from general authorities?

Pride is the major problem among men. Yes! There will be more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom. Those of the Old Testament who were given the vision of this glory and those present in our own dispensation who have seen it, noticed the imbalance of such.

Professor Nibley onces stated that was quite interesting that I never thought of - -

"And both their names mean the same thing. For one thing they are both called Adam: "And [he] called their name Adam" (Gen. 5:2; italics added). We are told in the book of Moses that Adam means "many," a claim confirmed by recent studies of the Egyptian name of Atum, Tem, Adamu. The same applies to Eve, whose epithet is "the mother of all living."

And what a woman! In the Eden story she holds her own as a lone woman in the midst of an all-male cast of no less than seven supermen and angels. Seven males to one lone woman! Interestingly enough, in the lost and fallen world that reverses the celestial order, the ratio is also reversed, when seven women cling to one righteous man. This calls for an explanation: God commanded his creatures to go into the world "two and two," and yet we presently find the ancient patriarchs with huge families and many wives. What had happened? To anticipate our story, it so happened that when the first great apostasy took place in the days of Adam and Eve, the women, being wise after the nature of Mother Eve, were less prone to be taken in by the enticements of the Cainite world. For one thing they couldn't—they were too busy having children to get into all that elaborate nonsensical mischief. Seven women could see the light when only one man could." 'Patriarchy and Matriarchy' by Hugh W. Nibley

There are many in leadership position since the time of Joseph Smith who spoke on the text given by Isaiah, concerning the seven women seeking the name of one man. Victor Ludlow stated -

Having already examined some events that would happen "in that day" (Isa. 3:18), Isaiah returns to the latter-day time frame in verse 1 to continue the "fallen woman" motif:

For seven women will take hold of one man in that day saying,

"We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!" (NAS)

In their humiliated state, the women have abandoned coquettish, alluring tactics for a direct, pragmatic approach befitting their desperate situation. The ratio of seven women for every man probably indicates a markedly high death rate among men, perhaps a result of the war described in Isaiah 3:25-26. Or, a higher ratio of men might exist during that period, but because of increased sterility among the men (perhaps through radiation) only an average of one man for seven women would be capable of removing the women's "reproach." Barrenness, the reproach these women wish to escape, was the greatest curse that could befall women in ancient times, since bearing children was their only means of honor. (Gen. 30:22-24; Luke 1:24-25.)

Another prophet, Wilford Woodruff, on December 16, 1877, received a vision of the desolation that would come; his vision includes a specific reference to Isaiah 4:1:

I had been reading the revelations . . . [when] a strange stupor came over me and I recognized that I was in the Tabernacle at Ogden. I arose to speak and said . . . I will answer you right here what is coming to pass shortly. . . . I then looked in all directions . . . and I found the same mourning in every place throughout the Land. It seemed as though I was above the earth, looking down to it as I passed along on my way east and I saw the roads full of people principally women with just what they could carry in bundles on their backs . . . It was remarkable to me that there were so few men among them. . . . Wherever I went I saw . . . scenes of horror and desolation rapine and death . . . death and destruction everywhere. I cannot paint in words the horror that seemed to encompass me around. It was beyond description or thought of man to conceive. I supposed that this was the End but I was here given to understand, that the same horrors were being enacted all over the country. . . . Then a voice said "Now shall come to pass that which was spoken by Isaiah the Prophet "That seven women shall take hold of one man saying &C." (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, June 15, 1878, Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City.)'

After the period of carnage and desolation, however, will come the final and greatest renewal of life, the culmination of the cyclical pattern of destruction and renewal repeated throughout history:

In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. (NAS)

In contrast to the barrenness described in verse 1, everlasting physical and spiritual fruitfulness will abound. In ancient Hebrew, the word for "branch" is also a symbolic name for the Messiah, who will spring forth from the line of Jesse and, at this second coming, appear in all his glory. He will be spiritual food (fruit) for the "escaped of Israel," or the scattered remnants of that royal house. (A more in-depth study of this image will be found in the chapter on Isaiah 11.) The "fruit of the earth" that blesses the survivors of Israel probably represents the blessings of the restored gospel. Centuries ago John Calvin saw in this verse a promise that "a New Church shall arise" created by Jesus Christ himself. (Calvin Commentaries 1:152-53.) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded by the Lord and bears his name, and therefore should be the "pride of Israel."

When the promise of the ultimate restoration of Zion will be fulfilled, she will be a tower of strength and a fortress against harm or evil:

And it will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. 4When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, 5then the LORD will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. 6And there will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain. (NAS)

In the images of this final passage we see a tying together of the old traditions and their new forms in the restoration that, again, closes the circle of history and the pattern of these chapters: "Washing away the filth of the daughters of Zion" and "purging the blood of Jerusalem" recalls the ancient sacrifices in which the burnt offerings were rinsed to remove impurities, the cleansing atonement of Christ, and washings and anointings. In finally bringing all these elements together, the Lord will create the New Jerusalem, Zion. The Hebrew word here, bara, connotes an absolute creation or salvation through him who is the "author of salvation." (Heb. 5:8-9.)

The all-encompassing nature of this restoration is also suggested by the cloud of smoke and pillar of flaming fire that will cover and protect "the whole area of Mount Zion." In ancient times, a single pillar of smoke and fire rested only over the Holy of Holies, which was approachable by the high priest alone. Now, under the tabernacle or wedding canopy, the remarriage of Yahweh and his people, promised and prophesied in Isaiah and throughout the Old Testament, will be consummated at last. Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, and Poet by Victor L. Ludlow