Some Observations From The Outside

[InquisitiveSoul]

Looking into the LDS Church and religion as a whole as I mentioned on an earlier visit, I've made some observations. I hope my observations aren't taken the wrong way, but I do welcome your feedback.

First, I don't understand why other Conservative Christian Religions would have such a problem with members of the LDS Church and the Mormon Doctrine. Certainly one can see where Polygamy would be an issue if it was still in place, but where it hasn't been in place for more than 100 years I'd suggest to them it's time to move on.

My guess would be if you took 100 Southern Baptists and 100 Mormons and asked them 10 questions regarding their position on America and both their Moral and Political beliefs, both groups would answer in a similar manner. Both groups tend to stand for God, family, country, and living their lives in a morally clean manner.

Second, why are former Mormons so bitter? I have a man in my office who was once Mormon and he has a lot of resentment towards the church. He told me he doesn't believe in any of the church's teachings and seems to hold the entire religion in contempt. When I told him I was looking into it again he was rather rude in his comments.

As I've talked to people and done some research online, it seems the majority of former Mormons are very liberal politically - in many cases bordering on Marxism. Do you think their political beliefs may cloud their spiritual beliefs or judgment?

I've visited some sites I'd consider as Anti and many of the former members happened to be homosexual. Many of these people would talk about polygamy and racial/sexual descrimination as their reasons for exiting the church without any discussion over doctrine.

Glenn Beck seems to take a beating on these sites though if I was LDS, I don't know that I'd want Glenn Beck to be the poster boy for the religion. Sometimes he seems a little unstable.

My position is this: I like the Church's stand on family. I like the patriotic attitude many members project as I think the United States would be much stronger if all citizens felt the same way. I would suggest most former Mormons motivation for leaving the church comes from their politics more than any other factor.

In terms of doctrine, it does seem the women in the church aren't full partners with the men. For example, if my understanding is correct, man may be sealed to more than one woman, but a woman may only be sealed to one man. If this is correct, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

In terms of other doctrine, I don't see many issues. I have observed over the years that there does seem to be a disconnect for some of the members or missionaries. Though some of the Missionaries I've met profess to believe and have a strong testimony, they fail to recognize if their faith is correct they should be more diligent in their Missionary work.

Another argument I've read about against the Book of Mormon is DNA. While it does seem the church has backed off the Natvie Americans being Lamanites, I disagree with many people who claim the DNA evidence destroys the Book of Mormon. Over time DNA can change a great deal. There is a study showing some descendants of early European settlers had so much change to their DNA, scientists can no longer prove they are of European descent using DNA. It would seem any claims regarding DNA disproving the Book of Mormon are claims based on ignorance to DNA studies.

Mormons tend to have more hope then other religious people I have met. Even if the religion isn't what it claims to be, it does provide it's member with a great deal of hope and peace.

As for Joseph Smith, I understand a prophet isn't perfect, but it seems Joseph was less perfect than most. It makes me wonder why he was chosen and not someone else. Any thoughts here? He kind of reminds me of a politician who preaches family values and then finds himself in hot water when he doesn't exactly practice what he preaches. He is still an issue for me which hold me back from joining.

The other issue which holds me back is the process from which the Book of Mormon was translated. I was told one thing by the Missionaries and later told something different by other members which seemed rather strange. Someone also sent me a link to an episode of South Park and a link to some writings from Joseph Smith where he said he translated the Book of Mormon using his hat. This seems very strange to me.

Any thoughts or feedback you can provide will be appreciated. In many instances, the doctrine of the LDS Church makes far more sense then any other religion. It makes sense to me that God would want prophets on earth. I like the idea that one can have the spirit with them at all times and receive their own revelation through their own diligence. Families is another point of doctrine I like though some of the things I've read about the Temple seem odd to me.

If you read all of this, what do you think? Sorry to ramble on so much but I wanted to get some thoughts I've had out.

[Wingnut]

Well, I didn't read your whole post (mostly because I don't like reading really long posts, so don't take it personally :)), but I do have a couple of things to comment on.

First, I don't understand why other Conservative Christian Religions would have such a problem with members of the LDS Church and the Mormon Doctrine. Certainly one can see where Polygamy would be an issue if it was still in place, but where it hasn't been in place for more than 100 years I'd suggest to them it's time to move on.

1) Godhead vs. Trinity. LDS take a very different view on the nature of God and Jesus Christ than traditional Christianity.

2) Authority. LDS claim to be the only church with authority from God to act in His name on the earth. As you can imagine, that ruffles a lot of feathers of people who claim or believe the same thing about their own religion.

Glenn Beck seems to take a beating on these sites though if I was LDS, I don't know that I'd want Glenn Beck to be the poster boy for the religion. Sometimes he seems a little unstable.

Sometimes? :) Glenn Beck is most certainly not a poster boy for the LDS church, especially not with his recent idiotic comments.

[InquisitiveSoul]

I was trying to be nice about Beck wingnut! I don't want to get tossed if people here love GB.

I understand what you are saying in regards to Christianity and ruffling feathers, but you'd think people could put those issues aside in order to protect their common interests and beliefs. I'm looking at the current Government and their agendas seem to be at odds with Baptist and Mormon beliefs. I'd like to see more from these organizations instead of the quiet passiveness coming from what I believe is the silent majority. If the majority stays silent for too long bad things happen.

[InquisitiveSoul]

Another thing about Beck, a lot of people outside the church make the assumption he speaks for people in the church. I don't see it that way.

[marts1]

Well, I didn't read your whole post (mostly because I don't like reading really long posts, so don't take it personally :)), but I do have a couple of things to comment on.

1) Godhead vs. Trinity. LDS take a very different view on the nature of God and Jesus Christ than traditional Christianity.

2) Authority. LDS claim to be the only church with authority from God to act in His name on the earth. As you can imagine, that ruffles a lot of feathers of people who claim or believe the same thing about their own religion.

Sometimes? :) Glenn Beck is most certainly not a poster boy for the LDS church, especially not with his recent idiotic comments.

I don't like long posts either, this 1 reached my limit.lol...I havn't read any legitimate writings that would disturb me too much about Joseph Smith being a prophet myself.

[hordak]

My position is this: I like the Church's stand on family. I like the patriotic attitude many members project as I think the United States would be much stronger if all citizens felt the same way. I would suggest most former Mormons motivation for leaving the church comes from their politics more than any other factor.

Do not confuse the gospel with patriotism or patriotism with conservatism..

The other issue which holds me back is the process from which the Book of Mormon was translated. I was told one thing by the Missionaries and later told something different by other members which seemed rather strange. Someone also sent me a link to an episode of South Park and a link to some writings from Joseph Smith where he said he translated the Book of Mormon using his hat. This seems very strange to me.

Never understood that. Lone man who's been wandering the desert talks to a burning bush, and these are 10 rules to live by. But looking in a hat is strange?

[InquisitiveSoul]

Interesting insights hordak, specifically on the bush and the hat.

[Jenamarie]

Another thing to remember about Joseph Smith is that 1) he lived rather recently, so writtings from people who knew him personally haven't had as much chance to decay into dust, and 2) there were a LOT of literate people in his age to write about him.

We hardly know anything about the personal lives of the ancient Prophets, only what made it into Scripture, which are largely either their own writtings, or the writtings of their friends and close associates and/or followers. Considering how ancient Israel rejected them, I have no doubt there were Anti-Isaiah/Anti-John/Anti-Moses people who had less than nice things to say about the Prophets.

[pam]

What I would like to know is..why is SLC2002GOLD laughing at some of the comments that are meant in a sincere and questioning way.

[InquisitiveSoul]

What I would like to know is..why is SLC2002GOLD laughing at some of the comments that are meant in a sincere and questioning way.

I thought maybe he was laughing at the Glenn Beck stuff, but it did seem out of place with my original post.

[confuzzled]

In terms of doctrine, it does seem the women in the church aren't full partners with the men. For example, if my understanding is correct, man may be sealed to more than one woman, but a woman may only be sealed to one man. If this is correct, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

I can't answer everything about the above mention quote because I simply don't know the answers. But, in my house, in my marriage I am a "full partner". At least in some of my family history the wife or wives were brought together before a "new" wife was brought into the family....again this wasn't always the case.

As far as my knowledge it is correct that a women may only be sealed to one man. But IMHO I can only handle one man......why on earth (or in heaven) would I want more.:eek:

just my humble opinion

[rameumptom]

Looking into the LDS Church and religion as a whole as I mentioned on an earlier visit, I've made some observations. I hope my observations aren't taken the wrong way, but I do welcome your feedback.

First, I don't understand why other Conservative Christian Religions would have such a problem with members of the LDS Church and the Mormon Doctrine. Certainly one can see where Polygamy would be an issue if it was still in place, but where it hasn't been in place for more than 100 years I'd suggest to them it's time to move on.

Ram: I agree. The Southern Baptist Church began over the slavery issue. I'm not holding the modern SBC responsible for how they acted 150 years ago (or even 50 years ago during Jim Crow).

My guess would be if you took 100 Southern Baptists and 100 Mormons and asked them 10 questions regarding their position on America and both their Moral and Political beliefs, both groups would answer in a similar manner. Both groups tend to stand for God, family, country, and living their lives in a morally clean manner.

Ram: I think we would have more in common than different.

Second, why are former Mormons so bitter? I have a man in my office who was once Mormon and he has a lot of resentment towards the church. He told me he doesn't believe in any of the church's teachings and seems to hold the entire religion in contempt. When I told him I was looking into it again he was rather rude in his comments.

As I've talked to people and done some research online, it seems the majority of former Mormons are very liberal politically - in many cases bordering on Marxism. Do you think their political beliefs may cloud their spiritual beliefs or judgment?

Ram: Belonging to the LDS Church requires a lot of emotional and mental commitment. When one leaves, it is a very difficult issue. But then, I think it is also tough leaving other strong religions, also.

I've visited some sites I'd consider as Anti and many of the former members happened to be homosexual. Many of these people would talk about polygamy and racial/sexual descrimination as their reasons for exiting the church without any discussion over doctrine.

Ram: Yes, there are many who leave for cultural issues. One can have homosexual tendencies and be an active and worthy LDS member. However, such a person cannot act on those temptations/tendencies. This holds true with anyone with other sexual or addictive tendencies, as well. In society, homosexuality is viewed as a favored minority, so they can place things in the context of Mormonism just being old fashioned at best, or prejudice at worst. Alcoholism is also a tendency, but is not favored by society, so we do not allow them to place things in such context.

Glenn Beck seems to take a beating on these sites though if I was LDS, I don't know that I'd want Glenn Beck to be the poster boy for the religion. Sometimes he seems a little unstable.

Ram: Glenn is an independent. He is a political talker AND a Mormon, but not necessarily representing the LDS Church while working. As long as he does not attack the Church or try to teach his off-center politics at Church, he can do as he pleases.

My position is this: I like the Church's stand on family. I like the patriotic attitude many members project as I think the United States would be much stronger if all citizens felt the same way. I would suggest most former Mormons motivation for leaving the church comes from their politics more than any other factor.

Ram: I agree.

[Nikkie85]

I think you need to clear some things up with the missionaries when it come to how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. While Joseph Smith was a prophet he was also a HUMAN! I believe that he tried his best to be Christ like in his actions but he was not Christ and therefor could not have been perfect.

I recently found out that Glen Beck was LDS and since I love him I was very happy.

I think that women are very equal to men in the Church and have just as many rights just not the priesthood. I am female and honestly do not care that men can be sealed to more than one woman. I believe the Church is true and I believe that Heavenly Father loves me and knows what is best for me.

I also would not recommended using a South Park episode as a reason not to join the Church

[bytor2112]

As for Joseph Smith, I understand a prophet isn't perfect, but it seems Joseph was less perfect than most. It makes me wonder why he was chosen and not someone else. Any thoughts here? He kind of reminds me of a politician who preaches family values and then finds himself in hot water when he doesn't exactly practice what he preaches. He is still an issue for me which hold me back from joining.

I would be curious to hear examples of Joseph being less perfect than most. Care to elaborate or compare? I do find it interesting that more recent prophets tend to be in the latter years of their mortal probation.

[Guest mirancs8]

I think you need to clear some things up with the missionaries when it come to how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. While Joseph Smith was a prophet he was also a HUMAN! I believe that he tried his best to be Christ like in his actions but he was not Christ and therefor could not have been perfect.

I recently found out that Glen Beck was LDS and since I love him I was very happy.

I think that women are very equal to men in the Church and have just as many rights just not the priesthood. I am female and honestly do not care that men can be sealed to more than one woman. I believe the Church is true and I believe that Heavenly Father loves me and knows what is best for me.

I also would not recommended using a South Park episode as a reason not to join the Church

LOVE Glenn Beck! He's nutty a bit but that's what makes him who he is.

Also doesn't bother me one bit that a man can be sealed to more then one woman either.

LOL! with the South Park episode.

[Faded]

First, I don't understand why other Conservative Christian Religions would have such a problem with members of the LDS Church and the Mormon Doctrine. Certainly one can see where Polygamy would be an issue if it was still in place, but where it hasn't been in place for more than 100 years I'd suggest to them it's time to move on.

For most pastors and non-LDS spiritual leaders, their biggest disagreement they have with us is over the Trinity vs the LDS believe in the Godhead. The two beliefs are incredibly similar and incredibly different.

This debate just doesn't resonate with your average Protestant or Catholic church-goer. So I guess they dig up polygamy and any other little thing they can. They view it as protecting their flock, but the are being deceptive in the process.

Second, why are former Mormons so bitter?

Between my wife and I, there are three examples of this that immediately come to mind amongst our friends. Three individuals who, for their own reasons, left the Church. In ever case, they are very defensive and bitter. One friend was terrified that his LDS parents would corrupt his daughter with it all, so he has gone to extraordinary measures to ensure that his parents won't have custody of his daughter if he and his wife die. All three friends have on thing in common: They're insane! They jump at shadows thinking it's their family or ward or something else coming to reconvert them!

The only sense I can make of it is that Satan has great hold on them. In every case, the friends in question have gone the way of extreme sexually promiscuous behavior. Bisexual or group sex or having an "open marriage." So I don't doubt that I'm hitting the mark by saying that Satan has gotten ahold of them.

In terms of doctrine, it does seem the women in the church aren't full partners with the men. For example, if my understanding is correct, man may be sealed to more than one woman, but a woman may only be sealed to one man. If this is correct, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

Most women in the Church of Jesus Christ will disagree with the notion that they are not equal partners, but since I'm a man, I'll leave that one to them.

In terms of other doctrine, I don't see many issues. I have observed over the years that there does seem to be a disconnect for some of the members or missionaries. Though some of the Missionaries I've met profess to believe and have a strong testimony, they fail to recognize if their faith is correct they should be more diligent in their Missionary work.

This one is the result of a lot of hard work on Satan's part as well. He puts fear into the hearts of the followers of the Restored Gospel and many of they give into that fear.

Another argument I've read about against the Book of Mormon is DNA. While it does seem the church has backed off the Natvie Americans being Lamanites, I disagree with many people who claim the DNA evidence destroys the Book of Mormon. Over time DNA can change a great deal. There is a study showing some descendants of early European settlers had so much change to their DNA, scientists can no longer prove they are of European descent using DNA. It would seem any claims regarding DNA disproving the Book of Mormon are claims based on ignorance to DNA studies.

The DNA argument that I ran into says that Native Americans are descendants of Han Chinese. Perhaps some are. The Book of Mormon tells the story of a people who live in these two continents, but it does not tell us how large an area that covered.

In addition, from the day Moroni put the plates in the ground until Joseph Smith got them, over 1400 years had passed. Go ANYWHERE in the world and see how much can change in 1400 years. A LOT can change in that much time. 1400 years is significantly more time than the Nephite history summarized in the Book of Mormon.

As for Joseph Smith, I understand a prophet isn't perfect, but it seems Joseph was less perfect than most. It makes me wonder why he was chosen and not someone else. Any thoughts here? He kind of reminds me of a politician who preaches family values and then finds himself in hot water when he doesn't exactly practice what he preaches. He is still an issue for me which hold me back from joining.

I fail to see where he would be any worse than any Old Testament prophet or New Testament Apostle. You'll have to explain this one to me. Moses was nearly struck dead by the Lord over something about circumcising his child (the story is completely lacking on any details of course.) Moses killed a man and was exiled from Egypt for it. Samuel hacked the Amalakite king to death right in front of Saul.

But I will wait for more specifics on this matter. I'd like to know what your specific objections were.

The other issue which holds me back is the process from which the Book of Mormon was translated. I was told one thing by the Missionaries and later told something different by other members which seemed rather strange. Someone also sent me a link to an episode of South Park and a link to some writings from Joseph Smith where he said he translated the Book of Mormon using his hat. This seems very strange to me.

You're referencing a Southpark episode as a reliable source of information?? Seriously?? Southpark also had an episode where the true God/leader/whatever was a giant spider creature who told them to molest young boys. Not the most reliable source of information if you ask me.

Any thoughts or feedback you can provide will be appreciated. In many instances, the doctrine of the LDS Church makes far more sense then any other religion. It makes sense to me that God would want prophets on earth. I like the idea that one can have the spirit with them at all times and receive their own revelation through their own diligence. Families is another point of doctrine I like though some of the things I've read about the Temple seem odd to me.

If you read all of this, what do you think? Sorry to ramble on so much but I wanted to get some thoughts I've had out.

Don't believe everything you read of course.

[marts1]

While I was inactive I did not like to see church members because it was uncomfortable to be reminded of a past failure. I also did not want to be bothered with questions or encouragement.

[murpr03]

Looking into the LDS Church and religion as a whole as I mentioned on an earlier visit, I've made some observations. I hope my observations aren't taken the wrong way, but I do welcome your feedback.

First, I don't understand why other Conservative Christian Religions would have such a problem with members of the LDS Church and the Mormon Doctrine. Certainly one can see where Polygamy would be an issue if it was still in place, but where it hasn't been in place for more than 100 years I'd suggest to them it's time to move on.

Considering I'm not a LDS member I thought I'd give it a shot. I'll leave the Polygamy comment alone because it really isn't relevant for fruitful discussion. The core of your question is related to doctrine and why someone would have a problem with LDS. It isn’t as much of a problem with LDS as it is a search for truth. Do all religions lead to the same place? It’s unfortunate that anyone who answers in the negative may well be ostracized for being narrow-minded and intolerant; or worse a “Conservative Christian”. The answer is NO! Not all religions lead to the same place. It is incorrect as well as illogical to maintain that they do.

When you examine world religions, religions like Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism, you will immediately recognize that they directly contradict one another. Moses taught that there was one God. Krishna believed in many gods. Buddha was agnostic. Logically they can all be wrong, but they cannot all be right. May I suggest you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” –James 2:19

[InquisitiveSoul]

For Faded and Bytor, I've heard it all about Joseph Smith as I'm sure you have as well. He's a treasure seeker, he changed his story multiple times, married children, committed fraud, tried to sell the Book of Mormon Copyright in Canada, ect. I'm sure you've heard it all and worse too. I wouldn't say I believe these claims as it's been nearly 200 years and a lot can be said about a person, both positive and negative in that time.

I mentioned South Park only as a reference to how some people paint Joseph Smith. I'm not saying it's a fact or reflects my thoughts on the man. I believe the hat was the thing that stuck out the most to me because I hadn't heard anything about it.

As for Prophets Faded, I agree they aren't perfect. My thoughts on Prophets tend to be on the side that they should be better than average in terms of how they live their life. Not to say they have to be perfect but I'd expect them to be a better example. Perhaps my expectation would be too high.

I did pay a lot of attention to Gordon B Hinckley and thought very highly of him. I'm sure he lived his life in a better manner than 99% of everyone who has ever lived.

I went to church Sunday. It was Fast Sunday for this Ward as they had a Conference last week. I had the opportunity to speak with an old gentleman who had been a Bishop among his many callings. I asked him if Prophets today still have visions of God and angels, he told me he believes Thomas Monson talks with God and Jesus face to face as do the other Prophets/Apostles. The only difference between these men and Joseph Smith is Joseph was a young man who probably should have kept many of his visions to himself. Thomas Monson on the other hand is experienced and wise and knows it's not necessary to "brag" (his words) about his experiences. Further, in this day and age if Thomas Monson was visiting Presidents and other leaders claiming to have visions he'd be considered a nut. I thought it was an interesting explanation.

I'm also wondering about Tithing. I work 2 jobs right now in order to pay all the bills and provide for the family. Taking 10% of my money to pay tithing will be difficult. Do you really pay 10% when you can't afford it? If it's a choice between paying the Power Bill and paying Tithing, do you really pay Tithing instead?

Thanks for your responses everyone. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts.

[InquisitiveSoul]

I think you need to clear some things up with the missionaries when it come to how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. While Joseph Smith was a prophet he was also a HUMAN! I believe that he tried his best to be Christ like in his actions but he was not Christ and therefor could not have been perfect.

I recently found out that Glen Beck was LDS and since I love him I was very happy.

I think that women are very equal to men in the Church and have just as many rights just not the priesthood. I am female and honestly do not care that men can be sealed to more than one woman. I believe the Church is true and I believe that Heavenly Father loves me and knows what is best for me.

I also would not recommended using a South Park episode as a reason not to join the Church

The initial picture painted by the Missionaries is of Joseph with the Gold Plates reading and dictating to his scribes who are sitting on the other side of a curtain. I've heard and read other versions of the translation process which are far different.

In the big picture, if the Book of Mormon is true then the tranlation process is completely irrelevant, no matter how any of the stories sound. What is relevant to me is if they (members & missionaries) are painting a picture which is incorrect, what other doctrines are they teaching which may not be entirely in line with official Mormon Doctrine.

For example, I've had some Mormons tell me years ago that Mormons are forbidden from drinking any soft drink with Caffeine. As I've learned more about the church, their statement wasn't exactly true. There isn't a rule in place anywhere in the doctrine that says you are forbidden to drink a Pepsi because of Caffeine. However, it was a common idea years ago that Mormons didn't drink Pepsi/Coke or any other drink with Caffeine. Additionally, I have seen first hand if you go to a facility owned by the church, drinks with Caffeine are conspicuously absent from vending machines. (this isn't an issue for me rather an example of people teaching their own ideas.) I would say because the church doesn't sell drinks with Caffeine, it is implying that Caffeine goes against the spirit of the law and isn't exactly recommended. Same thing with rated R movies.

[Finrock]

Good morning InquisitiveSoul! I hope you are doing well. I appreciate your observations, questions, and the general manner you have been approaching your investigation of the church! :)

I'm also wondering about Tithing. I work 2 jobs right now in order to pay all the bills and provide for the family. Taking 10% of my money to pay tithing will be difficult. Do you really pay 10% when you can't afford it? If it's a choice between paying the Power Bill and paying Tithing, do you really pay Tithing instead?

Thanks for your responses everyone. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Like most things in religion and the LDS beliefs, tithing is a matter of faith. Tithing makes no sense when viewed without the eyes of faith. In fact in the context of your example it would appear to contradict economical sense to pay tithing when struggling with finances.

I can only speak on my personal experience here. I have been in situations several times in my life where finances were strained. My wife and I lived off of roughly 13-18K a year (early 2000's) for the first few years of our marriage with 2 children to boot. I was laid off for 6 months at one time. Regardless of our financial circumstances, we always paid a full tithe of any income we made. Without fail we always had everything we needed and were provided for to pay our bills and make due. This didn't mean that we didn't have to make sacrifices, but we have continued to have all that we need and much of what we want. I cannot say that I have ever "felt" poor. I know that this has been a direct blessing of us paying our tithing even when it seemed impossible to do while maintaning our home, utilities, food, etc.

Regards,

Finrock

[InquisitiveSoul]

I also had this thought on some of the "strange" doctrine such as Polygamy or the misconception of a Prophet, specifically Joseph Smith, having to be perfect.

When I was 14 I went to try out for the freshman basketball team. The first day, we had close to 50 kids show up for tryouts. The coach took us out to the track around the football field and said "Ok gentleman, for the next hour I want you to run as many laps as possible. No walking around the track, you better run!"

So we ran for an hour. When we finished Coach said ok, see you tomorrow same time. For the first week we repeated the same experience. By the end of the week Coach hadn't cut anyone, but there was only about 20 of us left. A couple of the kids quit mid week when they showed up and were told we were running again. Others didn't come back after the first day or two.

After High School, I played on a City League team with the Freshman Coach. We had become friends and were sitting around talking about old times after a game one night. We talked about the first week of tryouts and he told me he didn't have time to evaluate 50 basketball players so he made us run the first week to see who really wanted to play. He didn't want any lazy players on the team and he knew the real basketball players would keep coming back.

Do you think God may put in a "strange" doctrine or imperfect Prophets to weed out the fakers?

Edited March 15, 2010 by InquisitiveSoul

[Finrock]

Do you think God may put in a "strange" doctrine or imperfect Prophets to weed out the fakers?

I believe so, at least in the "strange" doctrine part. Of course, my answer is conditioned on what you mean, exactly, but I can generally agree with your assestment. I think a classic example of this is when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son. When it was clear that Abraham would obey, God intervened and stopped Abraham from going through with it. Yet, this was an "unusual" request that God asked of Abraham to test Abraham's faith and commitment to God.

Regards,

Finrock

[InquisitiveSoul]

I say strange for lack of a better word. Certainly there are doctrines in the church which seem odd to people looking in from the outside. One may argue all religions have strange doctrines.

Perhaps in place of strange I should say do you think the church (or God) does what it does or has some requirements to weed people out? 3 hour meetings, 2 year missions, 10% of income, lay clergy? In many churches they pay the organist. As was mentioned earlier there are a lot of requirements/commitments in your faith, more then most religions.

I was reading about Garn this morning as well and his situation. When I scroll down at the end of the article you see lots of comments. Funny how many people will say, "There you see! Told you them Mormons were evil!" As if the man's Bishop said "Hey Brother Garn, you should go out and find an underage girl to go hot tubbing with. In fact, do it this week!"

Another item of note, I was reading some comments on the anti site I mentioned before. I'm surprised by not only how bitter they seem, but how negative they seem. Every act the church or one of it's members commit must have a sinister motive behind it. I would say the reason there anti propaganda doesn't bother me is because of how dark and negative they seem. There isn't any light coming from these people - not to say they are bad people - but there is something else going on with them.

I feel a need to find the light and fix my injured soul...not wither in bitterness and negativity.

[ehkape]

The initial picture painted by the Missionaries is of Joseph with the Gold Plates reading and dictating to his scribes who are sitting on the other side of a curtain. I've heard and read other versions of the translation process which are far different.

That will be the usual picture presented by the missionaries or members. Usually not because they want to fool anybody, but because thats how they believe it happened. When I was a missionary 9 years ago, that was the only story I knew. Whenyou grow up in the church, you see all the pictures of Joseph and Oliver sitting at the table, plates in front of them, etc. and nothing else - so you just believe thats how it worked.

That there were other tools involved (besides the Urim and Thumim) like his hat and peepstone or that the plates were not present during parts of the translation is part of the story that didn't make it into the regular Sunday School manuals. So most members won't know. ( And some won't believe it, when they hear it)

In the big picture, if the Book of Mormon is true then the tranlation process is completely irrelevant, no matter how any of the stories sound. What is relevant to me is if they (members & missionaries) are painting a picture which is incorrect, what other doctrines are they teaching which may not be entirely in line with official Mormon Doctrine.

I agree. It doesn't really matter HOW it was translated, IF the translation is correct.

I don't think anybody paints the wrong picture on purpose, but the question has to be asked when looking into a church.