Degrees Of Glory

[prisonchaplain]

PC, and up to that time when he will reveal himself, how do we prevent ourselfs from being deceived?

If we are full of God's stuff, we leave no room for the Enemy's deception. Prayer and meditation, Bible reading and study, fellowship with believers, intentionally sharing our testimonies--especially outside the church, and, of course, avoiding 'worldy' entertainment and influences.

When we think of openly denying and rebelling against our Creator and Father, we may scoff a bit now. But Satan doesnt work openly like that. It creeps up slowly and bit by bit we move towards rebellion. Like now lifestyles that were rampant in Sodom and Gomorrah are now accepted in society. Some idiots are trying to remove the name of God from society, just like they already did in some states with the 10 Commandments. Remove the name of God from dollar bills, pledge of allegiance, court rooms, etc. I personally think that when the time comes, we may have slipped pretty far from recognizing rebellion against our Creator anyway. Mark of the Beast will be accepted willingly. Its totally the new electronic buying ego driven age.

I generally agree with this post. My one note would be that as we enter the time of Great Tribulation, Satan will be much more direct and open. There are some hints that demonic influences will be greater, and that angelic interventions will be restrained. There is coming an antichrist brazenness that most are not accustomed to, imho.

[Adomini22]

well said, PC, well said

[Guest MrsS]

Spirit of discernment (whatever that is) :)

From the Topical Guide at lds.org here are just a few scriptural references:

Discernment, Spiritual

See also God, Spirit of; Holy Ghost, Gift of; Holy Ghost, Mission of; Light of Christ

Gen. 3: 22 (Alma 12: 31; Moses 4: 28) become as one of us, to know good and evil.

1 Sam. 16: 7 man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

1 Kgs. 3: 9 (1 Kgs. 3: 5-15) discern between good and bad.

Isa. 5: 20 (2 Ne. 15: 20) woe unto them that call evil good.

Isa. 11: 3 (2 Ne. 21: 3) he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes.

Ezek. 44: 23 difference between the holy and profane.

John 1: 9 true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh.

I believe that when you live your life in a wholesome way, thus inviting the Holy Ghost to dwell within you - and when you are not afraid to listen to and heed the promptings of the Holy Ghost - then you are gifted with the ability to discern what Father wishes for you to do.

[Dr T]

Thank you for the verses MrsS. :)

[Dale]

With the Bible no scripture say's only two places will be inhabited in the afterlife. Psalm 139:8 refers to heaven & hell, but leaves out the new earth. So unless heaven is left vacant & everybody moves to earth why can't we have four destinations as Joseph Smith contemplated? One of the key sets of proof texts against the glories is Rev. 20:15,21:24-26 which critics are misreading. The scriptures do not say God's presence is not in heaven.

Don't know where the Terrestrial kingdom will be located? It could be located on Mars for all I know. I doubt it will be earth.

Been pondering very seriously various scriptural arguments against LDS views on salvation issues, and the kingdoms. I am Community of Christ/RLDS and we get some of the same attacks.

I think some criticisms of LDS belief on salvation issues are because of a few popular screwy definitions. One of the dumb ones is salvation means mere resurrection. If persons can be in lesser kingdoms who drank coffee then the original debt with God has been totally paid for by the shed blood of Jesus. James 2:10 is very clear if you are guilty of one item of law breaking you will not just go to a lower kingdom, but to outer darkness. Saved by grace means more than resurrection.

In conversations when I am asked Are you saved? I always answer yes these days.

Exaltation & eternal life I feel is a bad term based an misinterpretations of D.&C. 132:4,6,27. It does not in my view teach saved angels are damned. So while the revelation is not scripture to me I decided the idea of saved, but damned persons was not advocated in the document. The wordings tricky so many have seen the idea there. So I believe everybody saved from hell has eternal life. The document teaches not damnation to a lower kingdom, but to outer darkness. And anybody so damned must recieve the law first, or refuse it after being offered it to inherit the deaths. The saved angels are ok though.

With exaltation it's a reward by gospel obedience plus grace. But no scripture outside of D.&C. 132 gets into it. Every scripture that I know of is only concerned with salvation & recieving eternal life from hell. D.&C. 132 applies things like eternal lives to a new idea of exaltation, but I doubt it denies the simpler older everybody has eternal life who is saved definition.

D.&C. 76:38,39 has been misread as saying that many will be saved & few damned. That reading goes against the many Joseph Smith said in D.&C. 132 would be damned. So I take the words "only ones" as not saying the size of the group is small, but the category. The idea of many saved, few damned goes against scriptures like Matthew 7:13,14 & D.&C. 132. So the many saved idea would have Joseph Smith contradicting himself on the number of damned. Plus it would put D.&C. 76 in conflict with the Bible.

With working towards exaltation I suggest avoiding calling it salvation in conversation with Evangelicals. Maybe treating it as a salvation reward would be better. It is a type of believed salvation reward, but it sounds exactly like you are saving yourself from outer darkness by man's effort. When explaining LDS idea I have started using the idea in 1 Cor. 15:10 to explain it. Exaltation is not an act of man's human effort. (Ephesians 2:8-10) It is, or should be explained as yielding ourselves to God allowing Him to work in us by his grace. Grace gives us the desire & power to do God's will.

An Evangelical is only concerned with salvation from hell. They don't have a concept of a Celestial law that's full of grace. They think that Celestial law, and the keep all commandments idea is as one put it "programmed failure." It is hypo-thetically possible to keep all commandments, but who does it? So salvation of any times is by grace after all man's efforts fail to add up. (2 Nephi 25:23; James 2;10;Romans 3:23)

My belief on getting into the Celestial kingdom is different than LDS. I don't see coffee drinking as excluding one from the Celestial kingdom. I doubt the idea of exaltation. But my conversations with Evangelicals online have improved much since I began sharing the above information in this way. They still think I am ny LDS friends are heretics in the works area, but they see more grace in my beliefs. Before they only saw me only teaching man's effort saves us.

[MaidservantX]

By the way, the eymology of "damned" is along the lines of "lost" or "damaged". Although none of us want to be that, it is a far cry from a full, tortuous hell that we sometimes imagine. As well, when I read scriptures that speak of, for example, baptism (salvation) and entering the kingdom of God versus damnation I have personally learned NOT to read too far into an eternal future with that. To me, I get the sense that it is much more immediate. Namely, that we are trying to navigate a mortality where Satan and his servants are rampant with all their influence and power. In the future, whether in the millenium of peace, or in further eternities, Satan will be bound and banished. But RIGHT NOW is when we need the most help. We need protection NOW not later. We enter the kingdom of God AT THE MOMENT we are baptized -- that is the gate. That is our key. That is our token of our faith. (I could go on and on about the wonder and power of baptism.) Think of it like a house - you are either out or in. It's very physical. You open the door and you go in -- that's baptism. Once you are baptized, you are out of Satan's grasp. Of course, you have to keep those covenants for that to be true and of course, there is still a lot that Satan can do because of the nature of this world -- but we can continue to learn more and receive power from that covenant and we will have greater and greater power over Satan (through Christ's merits) (and by the way, that usually means greater power over our own weaknesses that Satan exploits). Baptism and other covenants access atonement's power NOW to save and rescue us NOW -- and even if Satan's darts continue (Helaman 5:12) we will NOT be lost or damaged (including being healed from once-wounds), in the present and NOT to describe one's condition in the future. As more and more children of God have and keep their baptism -- they are SAVED in the present -- then Satan will be more and more bound, until the millenium of peace and the further eternities unfold from that great atonement work. (Of course, the Savior is coming for the final overthrow, eh?)

I do not know what the Hebrew or Greek or other word from a more fundamental scripture language says in those places that are translated "damned" in English. I would be interested to know.

[Dale]

LDS leaders have been clear that not keeping all the Temple standards won't lead to outer darkness. The idea is if you don't keep celestial law you are in danger of the Terrestrial of Telestial glory. If you need to keep Baptismal committments to keep out of Satans grasp how can you break those same covenant & still be saved?

Does a coffee drinking Terrestrial inactive LDS inhabitant in D.&C. 76 sound like they are in Satans grasp? They are not in hell before going to the Terrestrial. They are saved from outer darkness. Wouldn't they be denied Christ atoning power for personal sin? If they can access it now it's untrue you have to be a certain type of commandment keeping LDS in order to benifit by the atonement now.

[CrimsonKairos]

Here are some word studies. Numbers/definitions come from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. References indicate which verse contains the word in quotation marks.

Mark 16:16 "damned" comes from:

2632 kat-ak-ree-no

to judge against, i.e. sentence:--condemn, damn

2 Thess. 2:19 "damned" comes from:

2919 kree-no

prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by impl. to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Matthew 23:33; Luke 20:47; Romans 3:8; 13:2; 2 Peter 2:3 "damnation" comes from:

2920 kree-sis

decision (subj. or obj., for or aginst); by extens. a tribunal; by impl. justice (spec. divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

[Dale]

Does any Bible use of damnation ever apply to anyone, but those who go to outer darkness? If the context always and only describes the inhabitants of outerdarkness then it applies to no saved man. If saved persons arn't properly ever called damned then they have eternal life now.

[CrimsonKairos]

The Biblical occurences of the word "damned" and "damnation" as demonstrated above seem to point to someone who has not been forgiven or cleansed by grace. The definitions of the Greek words include "judged" and "condemned" and "trial" etc...

So "damned" individuals are not "justified," and hence are worthy of being judged and condemned...damned, according to the original Greek. By the way, that is by no means an exhaustive study I provided, just enough to give an idea.

[MaidservantX]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=damn

I couldn't paste the words in here, it wouldn't let me select, so hopefully you can open that page.

Also, this page is interesting, first few words in the paragraph.

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/judges.html

I'm glad you got me started looking, CK, sometimes I forget where I found things out. What you bring forward is going to cause me to continue considering the matter.

Dale, you are a very wise person. The last reply, I'm not sure what you mean. I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me or both. :) I think the bottom line of what I mean is that we, as mortals, need help. Christ needs to help us. Grace is a good word. As a Latter-day Saint, I believe that power and grace is in covenants. Some grace is also just free to everyone, sort of lying around and about us is how I imagine it, since the fact that we live and breathe (I believe) and have our being at all comes from Christ. I also believe that God answers prayers and sends the spirit to any sincere seeker. But I would like to think that eventually he would reveal his covenants to that sincere seeker.

Why be baptized at all if a baptism did not effect some protection against Satan? It would otherwise seem useless to me.

You speak of a future where a coffee drinker (??) is going to (maybe, probably, it doesn't matter exactly) be in the Terrestrial Kingdom. That is my point. That earthly coffee drinker (if it's just coffee we're talking about -- that's actually a pretty mild example) is MOST likely going to be in the celestial kingdom if what? If he loved his family and others -- is it Traveler that makes that point so well? People worry so much about what they are going to be approved of for the future eternity, and I'm just saying we have to get through today, first, and we can have grace power to do so.

Also we keep using the word Satan. But we don't have to meet him personally to be affected by his chains. When we have knowledge, spirit, obedience, etc. etc., we are safe: we're safe from the effects of coffee; of poor media choices; of not knowing how to forgive; safe from a lot of things. Of course, we can't be perfectly safe in mortality -- it's a pretty hazardous, knockabout place. But that's ok. I think we were really safe before we came here and we'll be really safe after we get done with the test. But right now, we're on a specific Adventure!

[Dale]

If a person is damned to a lesser glory whatever problems they had with Satan they were saved from his total control. I think LDS ideas of grace to be saved from outer darkness is pretty wonderful. The idea of three kingdoms for God's saved children is wonderful. The idea of saving persons who are technically guilty to any kingdom is a merciful law.

Grace unmerited is what we need as the gift of salvation from outer darkness. I kind of compare grace to a pardon for a murderer on death row.

[Adomini22]

Interesting comparison. I actually like it, to be honest with you. Inmate on death row, sin is wages of death, Christ dying for us, thus our price to pay for him dying for us........oh yeah, good comparison.

[Dr T]

Inmate on death row, sin is wages of death, Christ dying for us, thus our price to pay for him dying for us........oh yeah, good comparison.

Life on death row. Pardoned by Christ's dying for us is the payment for the sentence. Jesus make the payment.

[Dale]

A prisoner in that situation can't do anything to merit a pardon. Only someone like a governor granting a pardon could save the person from death. James 2:10 is pretty clear either we are not guilty of anything, or we are guilty of everything. Even if we obeyed God 99% of the time, and disobeyed the remaining 1% God can still condemn us. We are as guilty as a prisoner on death row.

Only if the original debt with God is paid off forever does the degrees of glory idea work. Not keeping Celestial law would be the same as keeping no law.

[Dr T]

Good ideas Dale. I agree with God paying the debt/pardon-not us.

[CrimsonKairos]

I disagree that the debt is paid at all. I believe the debt is cancelled.

I don't believe Christ's atonement is like having a wealthy friend pay a billion dollar debt we owe; I believe the atonement is like having a good friend convince our creditor to stop demanding payment...from anyone.

How our friend achieves this is a matter of scriptural interpretation. Some believe Christ takes our whipping in our place. I believe Christ arouses mercy in God's heart by recalling his suffering in Gethsemane and on Calvary...and that God puts down the whip altogether for Christ's sake.

[Dr T]

I like your view on this CK :) In either case, because of Jesus, I don't have to pay for my sins.

[Nate]

In a worse case scenario just use your credit card. Its the American way to do. That way you can pay for your sins now with money we don't have and try to forget about it except our minimum payment which just like this earth will take you an eternity to pay off.

[Dr T]

That's my point, we can never pay off the debt. We are imperfect beings, God requires perfection, once blemished, we are tainted and therefore not perfect. That's what Jesus did for me-presents me to the Father as clean. :) all praises to God!!!

[Dale]

I believe it's possible for a man to become perfect if they totally yielded themselves to God. But nobody I know of yields themselves to God that much. The only man that was said to have been totally perfect was Jesus Christ.

[Shade]

there aren't enough credit cards in the world for me. fortunately - i'm agreeing with CK - i don't need to pay. or rather, i'm currently busy working out my intervention with Big Brother...

[Dale]

In Matthew 18 the slave of the king got forgiven of an original debt. But since the servant mistreated a person who owed him money the king revoked his forgiveness for the debt. That in some strange fashion might be compared with stopping payments to the king can effect our salvation. The forgiveness of the king is conditioned on our forgiving others.

[jonathan.plumb]

Okay, after reading 7 pages of arguments and taking notes on what I wanted to put in as my 2 cents, I thought I'd skip to the end. Hope what I say wasn't already talked about in the rest of the pages I skipped:

1) The way I was always taught about the degrees of glory is that there is 3 main degrees, the Telestial, Terestrial, and Celestial, from lowest to highest respectively. (spelling?) We know that the Telestal is equivalent to our current "Earth" however you want to imagine that. I believe it was Joseph Smith that said he was shown a glimpse of the two lowest and he had noted how great the higher was compared to the lower. Now none of this is doctrinal fact as far as I know, it's just what I've heard through the years, and some of it may even be inaccurate since I heard them so long ago, it may not even have been Joseph Smith....who knows. We also know that the Celestial Kingdom has multiple degrees of glory. And I even believe I've heard that the highest degree of glory (Eternal Life AKA Exaltation) has ranks, or callings as you could say. Some of those callings could even include becoming a God yourself and having the responsibility of maintaining what God maintains.

I used to think Eternal Life just meant living forever, however I recently discovered that the phrase "Eternal Life" according to the church goes hand-in-hand with Exaltation.

Oh one other degree (not of Glory, but not be forgotten about) is Outer Darkness. This is where the Sons of Perdition are with Lucifer (AKA Satan). None of us who are on Earth can end up in Outer Darkness UNLESS you have come to a full knowledge of God (actually seen him) and deny him....or something like that. If anyone knows of other ways, I'd love to be educated.

Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong....but that's how I've always viewed it. Also, from Joseph Smith stating he had seen and compared the two degrees of Glory, I'd have to disagree with an earlier comment about all the degrees being in the same place (just as a bum and a CEO can live in the same place).

2) On plural marriage: I believe that plural marriage isn't something that anyone in the church just DID. Someone had mentioned it being a "higher" order or something like that, and I believe that's absolutely right. You had to receive a calling, or maybe it was more of a request, that had to be approved in order to plurally marry. Maybe I'm wrong....don't quote me on this (unless you're proving me wrong hehe).

3) If plural marriage is said to be the only way to get to Exaltation, then does that mean I'm going to have to take another wife in Spirit Paradise or in the Resurrection in order to obtain Exaltation?

4) The reason the church quit practicing polygamy wasn't because of any revelation (as mentioned earlier). It was because one of the church's main fundamental beliefs is in obeying the law of the land, so when the US made it illegal the church did the same (although they were a little behind the US I believe, not 100% sure about timelines)......I think at least. I wonder if you are LDS and living in a country like Iraq where multiple wives is accepted, would it still be against the church to have more than one wife?

5) If plural marriage isn't accepted at all any more, doesn't that go against the teachings that prophets were so bold about back in the day? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If God says the only way to Exaltation is through plural marriage, that doesn't change.....ever.

6) (Sorry for so many thoughts....I'm kinda like the Devil's Advocate as well....sometimes I respond merely to make more conversation)

6 cont...) I've always heard a reason for plural marriage in the beginning was to help increase the size of the church. Confirmation on this if anyone knows?

7) Muslims in Iraq practice plural marriage (not all, but some), but mainly from what I understand it's only to support the women of Iraq. I don't know for sure, but I'd say women definitely outnumber men in this world. Could use some facts if anyone knows for sure.....

Thoughts, anyone? (don't need to ask....I'm sure criticism is on the way)

Which brings me to another thought.....why all the negative feelings toward each other? Debates aren't supposed to make the other side look stupid, but to educate both sides more.

This world is made of....LOVE AND PEACE! ~Vash the Stampede

[Serg]

I disagree that the debt is paid at all. I believe the debt is cancelled.

I don't believe Christ's atonement is like having a wealthy friend pay a billion dollar debt we owe; I believe the atonement is like having a good friend convince our creditor to stop demanding payment...from anyone.

How our friend achieves this is a matter of scriptural interpretation. Some believe Christ takes our whipping in our place. I believe Christ arouses mercy in God's heart by recalling his suffering in Gethsemane and on Calvary...and that God puts down the whip altogether for Christ's sake.

That is right Crimson and I am glad i am not th eonly one with this idea, hey, I suggest you a great reading on it, Ostler's treatment of this theory of redemption in his second volume, there he states why teh allegory of teh Father being obligated to punish someone for the sake of an abstarct non willing justice, and Christ as scapegoat, is incoherent. There he explains how truly may redemption work and atonement function within us....

you will surely enjoy it pal.

regards,