Same Gender Attractions: A "Special" Adversity?

[Elgama]

my post was not my usual tone apologies

Edited April 7, 2010 by Elgama

[Gwen]

crazypotato, it's clear how you feel and that you have no desire to discuss this subject. that is your prerogative. because you find nothing profitable by such conversations does not mean that others don't gain a lot from them. this thread has not been contentious. i think this very emotional topic has been discussed very maturely and i have appreciated the perspectives shared. i feel it is important for lds to understand where others are coming from. we can not truly be be followers of christ till we understand those we are to reach out to and love (notice i did not say convert).

if you do not find these threads helpful please refrain from reading or posting in them.

[Elgama]

for me my marriage involves my whole soul that is body and spirit, I aiming to keep both. Someone who is homosexual cannot use their whole soul even if they can use the spirit to override the body

[GaySaint]

Seminary: Wickman called same gender attraction a "core characteristic" in the famous Oaks/Wickman interview. This confirmed to me what I believe God had told me already - that this is a permanent condition. Whether it existed in the pre-existence I don't know (although I do think there were pieces of my spirit that align with the pieces in my body that together make me gay, personally). I realize this is a PERSONAL revelation, and I wouldn't want it to go or extend beyond that, or claim that this is the case for everyone. But if it is a core characteristic, I don't think it will change, even in a perfected body. A core characteristic is something we are.

In addition, I remember feeling different before the age of accountability. There is one experience that I remember specifically where I recognized this difference at the age of 6. If the age of accountability is 8, how could Satan have enough power over me to warp my body and spirit to the point of making me practically unable to marry and fulfill God's plan here on earth?

These are questions those who have SSA have to struggle with. Unfortunately there are no answers.

You cannot say that SSA is not a massive part of who we are. You don't know that for sure, and what has been said by apostles and prophets in regards to the issue seem to contradict that. Do you believe your attractiveness to members of the opposite sex will disappear without your body? Or will vanish in the resurrection? I hope not. I believe that attraction to be a required component to celestial glory.

However, just because it is a massive part of who we are does not mean that we cannot live in a manner pleasing to the Lord - however you want to define "pleasing to the Lord."

As to homosexuality being an addiction, I also disagree. I don't know a single addiction that you can have before you ever taste of the "fruit" of that addiction. I hope that makes sense. I'm not quite sure how to say it more eloquently.

Edit: Elgama: I think your post right above this one was very profound. Thank you.

Edited April 7, 2010 by GaySaint

[Elgama]

I personally see why male and female is necessary for eternal progression and for a Latter Day Saint its such a big deal but I also think being homosexual is a unique challenge its not like its a new phenomena, someone who has been given it as a challenge has been given a challenge that strikes at the very core of our soul, and at what we can become. I do however think anyone who does overcome it is truly amazing. (sorry GaySaint)

[GaySaint]

Elgama: I would highly agree. No appology needed. I am where I am because I believe it to be where God wants me to be in this moment. It was hard to accept that. I was just as difficult to go through what I have been to SINCE falling in love as it was to remain a member of the church. I can't answer all the why's, but I do believe that God can and will one day. When that happens and I see why he directed me where he directed me, and can see the whole picture, it may be that with such understanding homosexuality will finally become a literal choice. When it does, I'll ask him what path he wants me to take from that point forward, and I will listen to his answer.

For those in this life who are lucky enough to have that happen to them here (and I should note, this is a rare exception, not the rule), I commend them for their work, faith, and amazing blessing. For those who feel they are capable of living this life in celibacy (which was me, at one point), I'm proud of them too.

And to those who feel God has directed them elsewhere, I'm convinced that if they honestly follow what they believe God has told them they will be where they need to be on judgement day. I can think of no greater faith than to follow God at times when that faith requires you to go against what everyone else is screaming God wants (look at Nephi, Lehi, Moses, Nehemiah, and others).

Only God's child, and his/her Father can know what God wants for them, unless that want is also revealed to a priesthood leader in the correct order. Those who struggle with homosexuality need to simply be receptive to what that will is, and then follow it no matter who tells them they are wrong.

[Elgama]

given my experiences of the last year I am not about to doubt you - it was Heavenly Father that asked my family to stop attending church, and since then I have seen the wisdom in it, in its way it builds up the kingdom of God. I know my best friend can't change who he is

[GaySaint]

I think it is important that I say, however, that though I feel I have recieved direction FOR ME in my life and this subject, that is not saying that I endorse that direction for anyone else. I simply endorse asking Heavenly Father, and then doing what he says.

Whether or not someone believes that my life is still being directed by God doesn't really matter to me :). I will answer to God on judgement day... not them.

I want to make sure this conversation stays LDS based, and doesn't direct anyone away from the church. So let's have some postings on that, to get us back on track please.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary: Wickman called same gender attraction a "core characteristic" in the famous Oaks/Wickman interview. This confirmed to me what I believe God had told me already - that this is a permanent condition. Whether it existed in the pre-existence I don't know (although I do think there were pieces of my spirit that align with the pieces in my body that together make me gay, personally). I realize this is a PERSONAL revelation, and I wouldn't want it to go or extend beyond that, or claim that this is the case for everyone. But if it is a core characteristic, I don't think it will change, even in a perfected body. A core characteristic is something we are.

In addition, I remember feeling different before the age of accountability. There is one experience that I remember specifically where I recognized this difference at the age of 6. If the age of accountability is 8, how could Satan have enough power over me to warp my body and spirit to the point of making me practically unable to marry and fulfill God's plan here on earth?

These are questions those who have SSA have to struggle with. Unfortunately there are no answers.

You cannot say that SSA is not a massive part of who we are. You don't know that for sure, and what has been said by apostles and prophets in regards to the issue seem to contradict that. Do you believe your attractiveness to members of the opposite sex will disappear without your body? Or will vanish in the resurrection? I hope not. I believe that attraction to be a required component to celestial glory.

However, just because it is a massive part of who we are does not mean that we cannot live in a manner pleasing to the Lord - however you want to define "pleasing to the Lord."

As to homosexuality being an addiction, I also disagree. I don't know a single addiction that you can have before you ever taste of the "fruit" of that addiction. I hope that makes sense. I'm not quite sure how to say it more eloquently.

Edit: Elgama: I think your post right above this one was very profound. Thank you.

Thanks again for your response. I am expressing my opinion believing that most LDS feel the same way but of course I don't know that for sure. I am sharing it too to help all those SSA LDS understand this point of view and it is done with love and desire that we all make it back to our Heavenly Father's presence.

You confirmed what suspected that you believe that attraction is part of your spiritual being and this is where we differ in our beliefs and I think it is where most LDS draw the line. I believe though that it will be part of your spirit if you let it, its up to you. Just like the spirits of people who smoke or people who drink heavily will still have that craving and desire linger in the next life. But I don't think that SSA is part of your spirit before this life. And I believe it is not part of your spiritual desires without the body overpowering spiritual influences.

I know I can't prove that to you nor would I try. I am simply trying to explain specifically why I think there is so much discussion surrounding this topic but it comes from that root core belief that SSA is somehow tied into spiritual desires.

I am not trying to judge you individually because I know there are many areas in my life that the body passions speak louder than my spirit and I struggle constantly with those areas. I think though change can only occur if one believes that that is not really who they are .... their spiritual self. If one believes that that is who they are spiritually then they will just call for acceptance and turn away from change every time.

My cousin is gay and we never talk about these things because I know he has that belief that that is who he is to the core. Until he changes that belief all I can do is love him with open arms which we do as a family and he knows that. Just like I hope my family loves me every time I am deceived and lost in my beliefs. I pray that we all love all of our brothers and sisters with open arms, understanding their struggles as much as we can. I express my love to you too, we are all in this struggle together and we all fall short without Jesus in our lives.

I think it is important to know though that I think the desire is real, it is strong and feels like it is something that can't be taken away from what a person feels is "who they are." I feel the same way about people who say they have a passion for music or basketball or pistachio ice cream (a personal passion from which I deprive myself of often) for that matter. I would say most of that is the body not "who you are."

You are loved by Christ just as all God's children and nobody should be pushed away from that love.

[GaySaint]

Seminary: I think part of the problem might be that people outside of the church (or outside of religion in general) don't necesarily believe in a spirit. To them, their core IS their body.

In the church we are taught that the soul is the body and spirit combined. We are taught that with a perfected body, we will have no sinful desires. But, we are also taught by the church today that homosexual attractions are not sinful.

So assuming you are correct, and that homosexuality has nothing to do with the spirit at all, from the point of birth forward, we have a body to deal with. Maybe it would be true that I won't be gay when I die, but would again once resurrected (since homosexual attraction isn't sinful, I can't imagine why it would be removed)???

How would that play into your feelings on the subject? Am I doctrinally wrong here? Wouldn't removing non-sinful homosexual feelings be the same as removing your desire for pistachio ice cream? What would be the point?

[Traveler]

Seminary: I think part of the problem might be that people outside of the church (or outside of religion in general) don't necesarily believe in a spirit. To them, their core IS their body.

In the church we are taught that the soul is the body and spirit combined. We are taught that with a perfected body, we will have no sinful desires. But, we are also taught by the church today that homosexual attractions are not sinful.

So assuming you are correct, and that homosexuality has nothing to do with the spirit at all, from the point of birth forward, we have a body to deal with. Maybe it would be true that I won't be gay when I die, but would again once resurrected (since homosexual attraction isn't sinful, I can't imagine why it would be removed)???

How would that play into your feelings on the subject? Am I doctrinally wrong here? Wouldn't removing non-sinful homosexual feelings be the same as removing your desire for pistachio ice cream? What would be the point?

Interesting post. There was an ancient doctrine that there is a connection between spirit and the functioning of the physical in the empirical universe. That is, that all that happens in the physical is the direct result of spirit influence. This doctrine implies that there are 3 possibilities for an individual’s behavior. 1. Choices involving their unique spirit. 2. Influences of Holy spirits or Holy Spirit. And 3. Influences of unclean spirits.

There are several instances where an individual was cured when Jesus cast out the unclean spirit that was influencing their behavior. We also learn of instances from the Book of Mormon where individuals that were being influenced by unclean spirits that when the unclean spirits were “cast out” that the individuals longed for and wished for the return of the unclean spirit.

I know a very successful LDS psychologist and MD that believes that any troubled individual (especially and individual spiritually troubled) are experiencing influences from unclean spirits.

The Traveler

[GaySaint]

Traveler: I very much believe that. Perhaps too much :) I've even considered and wondered over the possibility that being gay is the result of some sort of unclean spirit. Of course I don't believe that now, because the church has said the attractions are not "wrong." And how would such a spirit be given dominion over a soul who has not reached the age of accountibility?

Related and not: during some of the toughtest times of my life I've wondered how well I knew Satan in the pre-existance. Personally, I don't think he and I would have gotten along. But I've often wondered if I didn't have a close friend up there who knew all my secrets, who perhaps followed Satan's plan. Perhaps it isn't Satan I need to be most afraid of, but the spirits who followed him who knew me even better than he did.

Sorry to go off on this tangent. I realize that what makes a person gay isn't really as important as what they do once they realize they are - but this discussion is kind of fun =).

[LocalFarms]

In repsonse to homosexual attractions not being wrong. I know you don't believe in comparing homosexuality to drug addiction ( for the record I do), but can you agree that it is not a sin to be a drug addict, but it is a sin to use illicit drugs? We can further say that it is possible that drug addiction is a form of spirit possession. Now to think a step further, a drug addict can refuse to use drugs, even though they feel a strong compulsion to do so (i.e. spirit possession? you with me here?). Now they don't give in to this compulsion, therefore they don't sin, but they are still, in my theory anyway, possessed by the unclean spirit. Therefore it can still be said of these individuals "It is not a sin to be a drug addict" but it can also be true that they are harbouring an unclean spirit.

[LocalFarms]

oh and wanted to say that the purpose of the above post was not to say "I think you are wrong because" but rather "this is why I think the way I do"

[Traveler]

Traveler: I very much believe that. Perhaps too much :) I've even considered and wondered over the possibility that being gay is the result of some sort of unclean spirit. Of course I don't believe that now, because the church has said the attractions are not "wrong." And how would such a spirit be given dominion over a soul who has not reached the age of accountibility?

Related and not: during some of the toughtest times of my life I've wondered how well I knew Satan in the pre-existance. Personally, I don't think he and I would have gotten along. But I've often wondered if I didn't have a close friend up there who knew all my secrets, who perhaps followed Satan's plan. Perhaps it isn't Satan I need to be most afraid of, but the spirits who followed him who knew me even better than he did.

Sorry to go off on this tangent. I realize that what makes a person gay isn't really as important as what they do once they realize they are - but this discussion is kind of fun =).

There is an interesting biblical account of Jesus casting out an unclean spirit from a child found in Mark 9 starting with verse 14. In verse 21 Jesus asked how long the child had been afflicted – The father responds and says “Of a child”. The direct translation is since the child was an infant. This would indicate that the unclean spirit had dominated the child before the age of accountability. It is my understanding that children can sin before they are accountable but that they will not be held responsible.

It is also interesting that in severe cases of unclean spirit influence Jesus did not indicate that such influence is necessarily associated with sin or that the individual simply needed to repent to be rid of the unclean spirit.

This may sound interesting but my physiologist friend discovered that many times his patents started exhibiting a problem afflicting their previous patent. He was able to end this problem by using the priesthood to bless (or cleans) his office after each patent. This would indicate that a unclean spirit could be passed on by “carriers” if you will and not necessary directly associated to the individual that is influenced.

I have a rather interesting article concerning this if you are interested - and if I can find it. It is not on the internet I would have to e-mail it.

The Traveler

[LocalFarms]

There is an interesting biblical account of Jesus casting out an unclean spirit from a child found in Mark 9 starting with verse 14. In verse 21 Jesus asked how long the child had been afflicted – The father responds and says “Of a child”. The direct translation is since the child was an infant. This would indicate that the unclean spirit had dominated the child before the age of accountability. It is my understanding that children can sin before they are accountable but that they will not be held responsible.

It is also interesting that in severe cases of unclean spirit influence Jesus did not indicate that such influence is necessarily associated with sin or that the individual simply needed to repent to be rid of the unclean spirit.

This may sound interesting but my physiologist friend discovered that many times his patents started exhibiting a problem afflicting their previous patent. He was able to end this problem by using the priesthood to bless (or cleans) his office after each patent. This would indicate that a unclean spirit could be passed on by “carriers” if you will and not necessary directly associated to the individual that is influenced.

I have a rather interesting article concerning this if you are interested - and if I can find it. It is not on the internet I would have to e-mail it.

The Traveler

I would be interested in this article please.

[GaySaint]

Traveler: Interesting. PM me and I'll send you my email address. Of course, I do think the idea that an unclean spirit is to blame for people doing something that is not in harmony with the gospel is a little bit anti-agency. How could a person be blamed for their own actions, and judged accordingly, if it isn't the fault of person to begin with?

Say I'm possessed. I certainly didn't let an evil spirit into my body on purpose when I was six. How can I be held accountable for actions that would result that I otherwise wouldn't have committed? It seems very against the plan of salvation to me for God to allow an evil spirit to enter someone without their consent only to then cast blame on person who was possessed.

Not to mention the amount of priesthood blessings I've received on the issue... haha...

But it is a theory. Not sure it is one I believe, but interesting to consider nonetheless.

Local: I think the only thing that I can't draw a parallel between is that a drug addict must sin before he has consequences for his actions. A gay person can know he is gay, and struggle with being gay, long long long before he ever acts (as I've said before, in my case that was over 12 years). A drug addiction, and the resulting longing, is the consequence of a bad choice. That is not true about homosexuality - or if it is, the choice would have to be made at an extremely young age (most psychologists agree that sexuality is more or less determined in males by the time they are 2 to 3).

I can't imagine God holding a child accountable for a choice made at that age (if it is a choice) that would literally ruin his chances of having a normal "approved" family in this life.

[Gwen]

interesting ideas coming up.... i'm going to start another thread so it can be discussed without derailing this one.

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/31438-unclean-spirits-sin.html#post492291

Edited April 7, 2010 by Gwen

[GaySaint]

Well don't leave us hangin' Gwen. Let us know where the new thread is =) I've thought about starting a few myself, but figure I'll wait until someone else brings up the subjects I'd like to discuss.

[LocalFarms]

A drug addict can be intrigued with the idea of using drugs and convince himself that it is okay to do long before he ever touches drugs

[Intrigued]

A drug addict can be intrigued with the idea of using drugs and convince himself that it is okay to do long before he ever touches drugs

Someone who experiences homosexual tendencies can be attracted to same-sex genders before he has ever considered the idea that he is what we call a homosexual. Now about the idea that homosexual tendencies are influenced by unclean spirits... aren't homosexuals are still homosexuals inside the temples and I was under the impression that unclean spirits could not enter those holy places.

[Elgama]

difference is someone who has an addictive personality can become addicted to anything not just alcohol or illicit drugs - there are plenty of addicts who legitimately have temple recommends - I got one whilst I was biting my nails:) Quite often someone who becomes clean of an addiction that cleanliness in itself becomes an addiction

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary: Wickman called same gender attraction a "core characteristic" in the famous Oaks/Wickman interview. This confirmed to me what I believe God had told me already - that this is a permanent condition. Whether it existed in the pre-existence I don't know (although I do think there were pieces of my spirit that align with the pieces in my body that together make me gay, personally). I realize this is a PERSONAL revelation, and I wouldn't want it to go or extend beyond that, or claim that this is the case for everyone. But if it is a core characteristic, I don't think it will change, even in a perfected body. A core characteristic is something we are.

In addition, I remember feeling different before the age of accountability. There is one experience that I remember specifically where I recognized this difference at the age of 6. If the age of accountability is 8, how could Satan have enough power over me to warp my body and spirit to the point of making me practically unable to marry and fulfill God's plan here on earth?

These are questions those who have SSA have to struggle with. Unfortunately there are no answers.

You cannot say that SSA is not a massive part of who we are. You don't know that for sure, and what has been said by apostles and prophets in regards to the issue seem to contradict that. Do you believe your attractiveness to members of the opposite sex will disappear without your body? .

I was talking about before you came to this earth. LDS doctrine says that is the case because Adam and Eve existed in the Garden of Eden together without the veil and yet were oblivious to that attraction. They were sexually naive and yet they were the noblest of spirits, i.e. some of the most intelligent spirits. My belief as well as I think the authorities of the church is that sexual attraction is not part of our spiritual make up. We know we had gender, but that is a different topic. We are talking about sexual attractions here.

To answer your last question there - I think it will disappear if one does not make it to the highest rank of the Celestial Kingdom otherwise it serves no purpose. How cruel would it be to those in the Terrestial Kingdom to have sexual attractions that they cannot do anything about. We are not given in marriage except in this life. We cannot participate in the blessing of procreation except in this life, unless we make it into the Celestial Kingdom, so it is not intrinsic to anyone who doesn't make it into that Kingdom. I would say all those spirits who didn't get a body, wailed and gnashed their teeth because they didn't get to experience sexual attractions and other body experiences. Gender is a part of spiritual characteristic but sex and sexual attraction was an unknown feeling to us.

To me, sexual attraction is one of those things that can be a blessing but can also be a source of evil just like anything in this life, depends on how its used. I doubt that my husband, if we make it to the Celestial Kingdom and have the privilege to be together for all eternity will have opposite sex attraction meaning, he won't look at another woman in the Celestial Kingdom and say "wow, she has sexy legs." I don't think sexual attraction as we know it now will be a part of anybodies existence in the next life. Sexual attraction is a function of an imperfect, corrupted existence. Having an eternal companion will be part of the next life, but I really doubt "sexual attraction" as we know it now - in other words, attraction to a certain gender in general, will serve any purpose in the next life. Eternal companionship and Eternal marriage are different things from sexual attraction. I think we will have love for both genders equally but not sexual attraction.

[GaySaint]

Seminary: I understand how you can see the eternal scheme of things from that perspective, but I'm not sure it is doctrinal. President Packer has said that Romantic Love is a condition of the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. If you were to have no sexual attraction, what desire would you have to produce spirit children? I think your husband will still be capable of finding other women attractive, but that such an attraction with pale in comparisson with his comittment to you, and his control that he will have over his perfect body and affections.

I am also not convinced that sexual desires or feelings, or even... parts... will disappear for those who do not make it into the celestial kingdom. I know some people have written that such a thing will happen, but I don't think it is official doctrine. It seems to me that such a thing would be contrary to the "you won't even lose one hair on your head" philosophy. Unless sexual organs are imperfect, a body would be imperfect in the resurrection without them.

We also know that the other worlds (heavens) are governed by laws that are lower than the celestial kingdom. We are told this world is governed by a telestial law, and unmarried couples have relations before marriage here, under this law. While such a coupling may not result in children there as it does here, I'm not entirely convinced that the practice will dissapear completely.

Of course, after having paid for our sins (for those who go to a lower kingdom), it could very well be possible that the desire to be righteous exceeds any other in the next kingdoms, so that unrighteous desires can easily be completely ignored. I'm not really sure how it all works, and I don't think there is any specific doctrine on the issue, so I just trust God to work it all out.

What I am sure of is the love I have for my partner. I have no doubt that it will extend beyond the grave into the next life. But that love isn't based on sex... so whether or not we can do that in the next life really doens't matter to me.

[LocalFarms]

difference is someone who has an addictive personality can become addicted to anything not just alcohol or illicit drugs - there are plenty of addicts who legitimately have temple recommends - I got one whilst I was biting my nails:) Quite often someone who becomes clean of an addiction that cleanliness in itself becomes an addiction

It is also interesting that people with ssa tend to have addictive personalities