Why some won't & shouldn't get into heaven

[rameumptom]

i'll apologize in advance but i feel obligated to point out that if you were to drive south long enough you would in fact end up in canada :)

No, you would end up in the Ocean (Pacific or Atlantic, depending on which side of South America you are on), where your car would flood, you would drown, and Canada would still be half a world away.

[rameumptom]

Along the same line I believe all are meant and would repent if our eye's were opened and could see with pure knowledge the reason why we are hear, and we would all go back to live with our Father. It is because of lack of belief and the evil one and the want for the worldly things of this life that prevent this from happening.

All would repent, but not all would return to live with Heavenly Father. Why? Because some just would not want to abide a Celestial Law (D&C 88). They want to be in heaven, but are not interested in being valiant to achieve it. That is where God's mercy shines most. Instead of condemning so many to Outer Darkness, he saves them as well, and gives them a kingdom of glory that they can enjoy.

[rameumptom]

IMHO the very idea of hell as punishment is indeed a forcing of the will. At the Judgment the wicked will not be ushered into the place they have longed for...they will be cast into the place God prepared for the Devil and his minions. I suppose our disagreement is over whether God is Sovereign, and has the right to punish his creation on the one hand, and whether we were created for godhood, and so all (even unbelievers) have total individual sovereignty for all Eternity.

It also depends on the issue of what denotes the word "repentance." What if a person repents a little and changes a little? Have they repented sufficiently to be rewarded an all-or-nothing heaven?

In the LDS version, we are not Universalists. We see people spending time in hell if they "deserve" it, as a method to try and get them to repent. If they refuse to repent, they cannot merit the atonement of Christ and must go to Outer Darkness. This is not forcing a person to repent, but definitely would get their attention, as God is willing to do what is necessary to save his children from eternal hell, if at all possible.

[marts1]

All would repent, but not all would return to live with Heavenly Father. Why? Because some just would not want to abide a Celestial Law (D&C 88). They want to be in heaven, but are not interested in being valiant to achieve it. That is where God's mercy shines most. Instead of condemning so many to Outer Darkness, he saves them as well, and gives them a kingdom of glory that they can enjoy.

I've seen you say this before where you regard those who recieve lesser degree's of glory as being saved. To me being saved is becoming a member of the church and living good enough to make it back to the Father. The church and the ordinances within it are all ruled by Celestial laws. My general sense of being saved is different then yours.

[prisonchaplain]

Marts1...you and Ram are focused on different salvations, but my guess is your aim is the same. When Ram speaks to evangelicals about salvation from hell, it makes sense to include the Telestial and Terrestial Kingdoms. I've even heard an evangelical professor stating it that way...by your definition and mine, I am more or less headed for the Terrestial Kingdom. However, the evangelical fears that heresy can lead to eternal hell. Thus a classic offer--play it safe. Believe in the Jesus of evangelicalism and guarantee yourself a place in the 2nd heaven. Of course, the LDS prof responded by saying it wasn't good enough for him.

Most active LDS would want nothing less than the Celestial Kingdom. It's the ultimate salvation. But, that goal is different from what we evangelicals mean when we speak of being saved from hell. So, it's not uncommon in interfaith conversations for LDS to include the lower kingdoms in their definition of salvation.

[marts1]

Where it states in the bible "be ye saved" is it not referring to heaven, where God dwells not any other place?

[Traveler]

IMHO the very idea of hell as punishment is indeed a forcing of the will. At the Judgment the wicked will not be ushered into the place they have longed for...they will be cast into the place God prepared for the Devil and his minions. I suppose our disagreement is over whether God is Sovereign, and has the right to punish his creation on the one hand, and whether we were created for godhood, and so all (even unbelievers) have total individual sovereignty for all Eternity.

I agree that G-d is Sovereign. I do not agree that it is G-d's will to cast off any of his beloved creations into everlasting predacious hell. I believe that everything that comes from G-d is good, kind and the result of divine love and compassion – and is a blessing of divine proportions. It is my understanding that I believe in a different type of G-d than do some others. Therefore – I issue good news to anyone that has not received the message -- that there is a G-d of infinite love compassion and mercy. It is him only that I worship and serve.

It is my firm belief that if anyone ends up in hell it is because they have forced the issue rejecting every effort possible by G-d and all who serve the true G-d; to find welcome place for them elsewhere but it is by their own wishes and effort alone and wanting nothing else demanding to dwell in hell as far away as possible from G-d and those that serve him.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, you stress the love and mercy and compassion of our God, and you uphold his desire that we unite with him in every way. On these matters we do not disagree. Further I agree that those who do not enjoy God's kingdom will remain outside due to their own choosing--their own repeated rejection of God. I'm not one who extends God's Sovereignty to the point of him picking who gets damned and who doesn't. He has granted us that choice for ourselves.

The bottom line as I see it is simply that LDS teaching makes allowances for degrees of belief and repentence by detailing heavenly kingdoms of lower magnificence and glory, whereas traditional teaching is of a stark contrast between one heavenly kingdom and an eternal dwelling of punishment. Neither of our teachings resolves completely the problem of evil though. If even one soul remains eternally in the Outer Darkness then you have as much explaining to do as those of us who believe in eternal hellfire do.

[prisonchaplain]

Where it states in the bible "be ye saved" is it not referring to heaven, where God dwells not any other place?

Jesus is God. So, the Terrestial Kingdom would count, at least.

[Moksha]

Completely...not because I relish the idea of souls languishing in hell. But rather, my understanding of the Fall of humanity, and Christ's redemptive work is so contrary to universalism. Humanity rebelled against God, choosing the knowledge of good and evil, with it's implied godhood and independence from the Creator, over the loving care and protection of God. Christ came to renew the original relationship--to crush the head of Satan's attempt to sow separation. Universalism denies free will and makes the whole story of scripture seem rather meaningless and hopeless. We wanted to rebell against God and his ways--but he wouldn't let us. Is that it???

But what if Christ was being a herald of God's Universal love for his creation and that it was Satan who was sowing the idea of hell and wishing people were going to hell as an alternative?

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha, Jesus heralded the Kingdom of God, and yet drove people away with some of his teaching. It's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. You must eat my flesh and drink my blood. Love your enemies. Rich young man, you must sell all you have, give it to the poor, then come and follow me. Disciples, the rest have left me--will you too? I want you to love your enemies, consider lust as a form of adultery, and never curse someone in anger--for this is a form of murder.

Jesus said a lot of divisive stuff. He didn't try to win the masses. He brought truth. That included the promise of heaven and the threat of hell. He was neither a fire and brimstone preacher, nor a seeker-sensitive positive-encouragement-only minister. He was very balanced and true. Universal love, but realistic warning as well.

[marts1]

Jesus is God. So, the Terrestial Kingdom would count, at least.

Yes Jesus will visit the terrestrial but will not reside there. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

But what if Christ was being a herald of God's Universal love for his creation and that it was Satan who was sowing the idea of hell and wishing people were going to hell as an alternative?

The Jesus conjured up by theological liberals often bears little to no resemblance to the Jesus whose words and deeds are recorded in the New Testament. The above is a case in point.

The Bible contains no fewer than ten instances where Jesus explicitly refers to hell.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes Jesus will visit the terrestrial but will not reside there. :)

I thought others here had told me that Jesus would reside in the Terrestial Kingdom, but not the Father? No?

[marts1]

The Father stays where He is...Jesus will visit the Terrestrial but resides in Celestial is pretty much the only written information the church has...speculation however is another matter.

Edited April 8, 2010 by marts1

[LocalFarms]

isn't there scripture about saints in the Celestial Kingdom visiting their family members in the Terrestrial?

[marts1]

Not that I remember.

[Traveler]

Traveler, you stress the love and mercy and compassion of our God, and you uphold his desire that we unite with him in every way. On these matters we do not disagree. Further I agree that those who do not enjoy God's kingdom will remain outside due to their own choosing--their own repeated rejection of God. I'm not one who extends God's Sovereignty to the point of him picking who gets damned and who doesn't. He has granted us that choice for ourselves.

The bottom line as I see it is simply that LDS teaching makes allowances for degrees of belief and repentence by detailing heavenly kingdoms of lower magnificence and glory, whereas traditional teaching is of a stark contrast between one heavenly kingdom and an eternal dwelling of punishment. Neither of our teachings resolves completely the problem of evil though. If even one soul remains eternally in the Outer Darkness then you have as much explaining to do as those of us who believe in eternal hellfire do.

There appears to be an actual difference and I want to make and clear what it is. The point being that people are not punished by G-d for not doing what he wanted them to do. But they do not recieve his blessings. If it were possible, I believe G-d would send blessing and relief to those in hell. That he would not delebertly inflict pain to those in hell for his pleasure or according to his will - even as punishment for their wicked deeds. The only punishment is that they will not have G-d's blessings, compassion, mercy and kindness - there is nothing piled on by G-d to create pain.

As I have said many times - I believe G-d blesses - I do not believe he curses or causes pain. What hell or heaven any soul ends up in for eternity is that place and condition that they desire most. If a person was placed according to G-d's will and desire everyone would be with him in heaven. His great gift is to allow us to be what and where we desire most.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler...your belief that God does not punish...is this simply based on your personal relationship with God, and that which He has shown you, or is this a common LDS teaching, grounded in official teachings and Scripture? I'm guessing that you state things stronger than the church would.

[marts1]

I tend to agree with you on this one PC. There is mercy, however there is also justice. I have however seen many very good church members believe much the same as Traveler.

[rameumptom]

I've seen you say this before where you regard those who recieve lesser degree's of glory as being saved. To me being saved is becoming a member of the church and living good enough to make it back to the Father. The church and the ordinances within it are all ruled by Celestial laws. My general sense of being saved is different then yours.

I am using the scriptural definition of the word "saved."

D&C 76 tells us that first the telestial:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell (in Spirit Prison).

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

Being saved means being saved from Outer Darkness and the 2nd Death. Being EXALTED means living in God's presence with a fulness of his blessings. Some earlier LDS leaders and authors tried to make salvation mean exaltation, but confused many on what the scriptures actually state. They were so focused on exaltation that they actually made the lesser kingdoms sound like hell. But you will not see that anywhere in the scriptures. They attempted to scare people into exaltation. But the reality is, salvation is given by Christ to all who accept him.

[rameumptom]

The bottom line as I see it is simply that LDS teaching makes allowances for degrees of belief and repentence by detailing heavenly kingdoms of lower magnificence and glory, whereas traditional teaching is of a stark contrast between one heavenly kingdom and an eternal dwelling of punishment. Neither of our teachings resolves completely the problem of evil though. If even one soul remains eternally in the Outer Darkness then you have as much explaining to do as those of us who believe in eternal hellfire do.

Actually, LDS teaching does, IMO, a better job of resolving the problem with evil than traditional Christianity.

First, we do not believe in ex nihilo creation (God created everything from nothing). We believe God took matter from chaos and organized it. We believe that the matter, both spirit and physical, which we are made of was initially independent of God. God organized our spirits, and then our physical bodies, so we would have individuality. But that individuality came with the understanding that we are formed/created by God, and so have a distinctive separateness from Him. This is where evil enters. God accepts the idea that matter tends towards darkness and chaos (Entropy), while seeks to infuse it with light and order. We choose as independent beings where we wish to be on the scale of light/darkness, order/chaos,.

[rameumptom]

Jesus is God. So, the Terrestial Kingdom would count, at least.

The Holy Ghost is also God, and so the Telestial also would count.

[marts1]

Again you and I have found 2 proper usages of the same word and yes it can amusing and confusing for some.:)

[rameumptom]

isn't there scripture about saints in the Celestial Kingdom visiting their family members in the Terrestrial?

D&C 76 states that those in the higher kingdoms will minister to those in the lesser kingdoms. So you can visit family members (or they can visit you!)