well I'd be stoned.. or was it darned?

[dizzysmiles]

The U'N has done a LOVELY thing, they put IRAN over women's rights!?!? Ever Heard of the stoning of Sorah M? Equality?! Here:

FOXNews.com - EXCLUSIVE: U.N. Elects Iran to Commission on Women's Rights

I would be considerd immodest here ... A. I wear Jeans. B. I wear short sleeves, C. I am a married woman, and you can see my hair on my head.

Edited April 30, 2010 by dizzysmiles

[applepansy]

Somebody wasn't thinking straight.

[Dravin]

Somebody wasn't thinking straight.

The UN has made a number of spit take appointments. Good Ol' politics at work.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Dravin

[applepansy]

The UN has made a number of spit take appointments. Good Ol' politics at work.

I agree. We (USA) shouldn't have ever joined.

[HoosierGuy]

Before you criticize the U.N. and Iran criticize the U.S. and yourselves (and me) for doing

business with Saudi Arabia. Women have no or almost no rights in that Kingdom. We over look that tho so we all can have cheap gas.

[dazed-and-confused]

I would be stoned.

oops, i thought you meant something else........

[applepansy]

Before you criticize the U.N. and Iran criticize the U.S. and yourselves (and me) for doing

business with Saudi Arabia. Women have no or almost no rights in that Kingdom. We over look that tho so we all can have cheap gas.

I agree. And we've critisized that too. :)

[FairChild]

Evil comes in many different forms.

[Roseslipper]

Evil comes in many different forms.

yep

[mliff]

I dont think they should outright ban it (the veil or whatever its called), they should give the woman the choice to wear it or not. It's been a part of their religion. (I hope i put this in the right conversation)

[dizzysmiles]

Honestly, I don't care how they dress, that is to them. I however don't think it should be considered adultry for a man to see her hair, BECAUSE of the punishments they have against ANY woman who has had sex with any other than their spouse . Otherwise they can wear whatever they want, if punishment isn't dfeath, cutting off a body part,abuse, taking away a life from family. children, and so on. (Even if she is raped )

[dazed-and-confused]

Honestly, I don't care how they dress, that is to them. I however don't think it should be considered adultry for a man to see her hair, BECAUSE of the punishments they have against ANY woman who has had sex with any other than their spouse . Otherwise they can wear whatever they want, if punishment isn't dfeath, cutting off a body part,abuse, taking away a life from family. children, and so on. (Even if she is raped )

i agree with totally....but the fact is it is question of culture. i cannot agree more that some idiologies are antiquanted....but it is still a harsh realitiy for many women/girls.

just like clitoral circumsission takes place i Africa.....why do we not here more about

that?

the abuses to young and "older" (what, maybe 30?) women take place. every day.

ok, then..lets stand up and say..."HEY...IDIOT.....WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING????????

so, what should we do.......rain in upon them the might of US armed forces?

let get LOTS of LDS women to volunteer and set things straight.

i'm sure we can get the world in order.

[dizzysmiles]

i agree with totally....but the fact is it is question of culture. i cannot agree more that some idiologies are antiquanted.

I just think it's assinine that someone with that standard is to be over Women's rights for the World. Hopefully if they try anything to bring their harshness on women here, we have enough MEN and WOMEN who will protest to get out of the UN

[dizzysmiles]

P.S whoever changed the word "Darned" Thank you, I wasn't sure how to put it lol

[hordak]

From a secular standpoint i think it is absurd and am glad we don't live in a theocracy.

From a religious standpoint however i would point out the we are members of probably the most "strict" christian religion on modesty and many who don't live our standards would see them just as oppressive

Their Omans telling Muslim women they are to cover their hair is to our Apostles telling women to cover their shoulders and cleavage.

And while women don't get the same rights men get the same punishment (at least in extreme crimes like adultery)

Men stoned to death for adultery, murder in Iran - CNN.com

[dizzysmiles]

I'm all for them wearing whatever they want to, as long as it's not pushed upon others who don't believe. The problem I have is the harsh punishments,like the movie "The Stoning of Sorah M" infact, in Afganastan they will bury a man and woman up to their heads and stone them for a soccer half time entertainment. Crazyness

[Brik]

Really? if you disobey in an Arab country you get stoned? How is that punishment?

[dizzysmiles]

I just watched this movie. MAN oh Man it was so disturbing, yet rivolting at the same time. They showed her getting stoned, it looked so real I almost threw up, it was NOTHING like I thought a stoning would be. Now I am going to have nightmares. SIck sick world we live in.

[Moksha]

"They'll stone you when you walk in the bazaar

They'll stone you if you name is Anwar

They'll stone you when you eat a falafel

They'll stone you when you have that camel smell

but I would not feel so all alone

if everybody must get stoned."

- Mustafa Dylan, Rainy Day Burquas, 1967, Dubai

[Hemidakota]

The U'N has done a LOVELY thing, they put IRAN over women's rights!?!? Ever Heard of the stoning of Sorah M? Equality?! Here:

FOXNews.com - EXCLUSIVE: U.N. Elects Iran to Commission on Women's Rights

I would be considerd immodest here ... A. I wear Jeans. B. I wear short sleeves, C. I am a married woman, and you can see my hair on my head.

This where they need a REAL PROPHET vice there so-called clergy or those who think they truly know the will of Allah.

[James_Fryman]

I agree. We (USA) shouldn't have ever joined.

We couldnt have not joined, we were the only nation that was able to stand against the USSR, and the leauge of Nations fell apart because it didnt have our economical support. They werent willing to let that happen again

[Sean1427]

I doubt this is the right thread to post to, but I'm unsure where to post this. Besides, since some have talked about veiling and at least one mentioned Saudi Arabia, I figure that I could justify it on those grounds, flimsy as they are! However, let me be clear, what I share mostly applies to veiling in Saudi Arabia. While the clothing goes by various names depending on where you are, I'll just use the Engish word "veil" to refer to the face covering, "hijab" to refer to the hair covering, and abaya to refer to the long flowing black robe/cloak you often see on Saudi women in the news. Men's clothing is similar and Islam teaches that both should be modest in their dress. But then there is the question of defining modesty and violations of the dress and grooming code and that's a whole new can of worms altogether. By the way, and I mean to insult no one from Utah, but living in Saudi Arabia reminds me a lot of living in Utah, even down to the religious police, who brought back memories of those faculty and students who worked for the standards department when I was a student at the Y. There are so many similiarties, with the emphasis on similarities. It's certianly not the same. With that as a preface, let's continue.

Wearing the veil in Saudi is not part of any positive law. In other words, it is not mandated or legislated by the government. Nor is is dictated by Islam, which in Saudi Arabia makes sense given that the legal system is Sharia'ah, which is rooted in Islam. Rather, the veil in Saudi and throughout that part of the world, even for Christian and Jewish Arabs, is rooted in culture. Granted, many in those lands and elsewhere do not undestand this, misinterpret this and often confuse religion with culture. But in Saudi, it's common for religious leaders to point out that the veil is part of custom and not Islam. (As a side noted, I have seen men veil in the presence of women, and the earliest depictions of Mohammed show him veiled as well. Nioreover, there are Muslim tribes in North Africa where it's the men who veil and not the women. Just think of it, those Muslim women are forcing those poor men to veil!)

One of the problems they have during hajj at Mecca is that women are not supposed to cover their faces on hajj. But many do and they are told again and again that they should remove their veils for hajj, and many don't want to.

Not every woman veils in Saudi. Moslty, it's only Saudi women who veil as is their custom. ("Fiddler on the Roof"? Tradition!) Muslim women from other lands do not veil nor does any other non-Saudi women, with the exception of those who've perhaps married a Muslim man. For instance, I know European and American women who've married a Saudi and they veil. By the same token, I know other European and American women who've also married Saudi men and they don't veil. And in parts of the country where things are more relaxed, such as Jeddah, many Saudi women do not veil. But in other, more traditional parts of the country, such as Najd or the Quran Belt, women who look Saudi might want to veil so they're not hassled by people who think they might be an un-veiled Saudi. Regardless, the situation is certainly not black and white and is more complicated than we realize.

Bank robbers in Saudi veil as do prostitutes. Saudi women who cheat on their husbands keep the veil on as it is a great protection since under Islamic law there need to be four adult male witnesses to the act of sexual intercourse before one can be condemned to death for adultery. Until fairly recently, border crossings were a problem for Saudi customs officials because they didn't have a way to ID the women crossing the border. In fact, Saudi men and women who were having an illicit affair would use this as a "cover" to go into neighboring countries for a fun night on the town. Border crossings have changed now, however. But police still often wave a car through a checkpoint on a highway if there are Saudi women on board--they simply don't want to have to go through the hassle of trying to identify the women.

For those in Saudi who wear the veil, it's supposed to be for public use only. Hence, when they go home, they remove the veil. But in some of the more backward parts of the country, in the little towns and villages up some wadi, there are women who never remove the veil. This is interesting since men and women are allowed to see each other before agreeing to an arranged marriage. This means that when they do sit down and meet each other face to face, she is without her veil, the abaya and the hijab. After that, the veil is used in public except in the backward places I've mentioned where some women will keep it on even at home. Men and women from these areas will complain that they never see the face of their wife or mother until she dies and it's time to prepare her body for burial. I'm aware of one elderly man who tried to get a glimpse of his wife's face while she was sleeping but she caught him. She became upset, packed her things and went home to mom and dad. He pleaded with her to return which she only consented to do if he signed an agreement wherein he agreed never to try to see her face again. He did. But as time passed, he began to irritate her again by his constant attempts to get her to show him her face. She finally told him that if he wanted to see a wife's face that badly, she would go out and find a second wife for him who would be willing to satisfy his desires.

One of the major problems they have in Saudi with allowing women to drive involves the veil. If the women won't or can't remove the veil, then it makes driving dangerous. Back in the late 1990s, the government tried to get people to go along with an attempt to allow women to drive but most were against it, in part because of the veil. Large numbers of men and women did not think it appropriate for women to remove the veil. The leadership then suggested a compromise where women who were older than 30 or 40 would be allowed to drive if they uncovered their faces. (At that point, I suppose the woman's beauty has kind of faded and no one needs to worry about all the accidents that might occur from men gawking at her!) That didn't go over well. For now, the only women allowed to drive are the Bedu women, who do so veiled, of course.

Visiting nearby Bahrain can be interesting because there the tradition is more relaxed. But even there, you can pick out the Saudi women--they almost always veil. Once I saw two groups of women in an upscale mall. It was women's night out, so none of their mail relatives were anywhere near. There were five women in each group, and the two groups were approaching each other. All were dressed in black from head to toe except for the face. The group on the right were all veiled--they, of course, we're Saudi; the group on the left were not veiled except for one, and they were Bahraini. I saw the same thing over and over again even in movie theaters. I remember watching "The Runaway Bride" and seated four or five rows above me were 5 or 6 women, all veiled in this dark movie theater with almost no one else in the theater.

By the way, one thing I found amazing was the fact that even though women are all covered up like this in Saudi, some even wearing black gloves with no peep holes in the veil, men are always gawking at them. And the hand gestures they use to show the woman's figure is not the hourglass gesture we use in America but it's more like an inverted funnel.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Sean1427

[Moksha]

"They'll stone you when you walk in the bazaar

They'll stone you if your name is Anwar

They'll stone you when you eat a falafel

They'll stone you when you have that camel smell

but I would not feel so all alone

if everybody must get stoned."

- Mustafa Dylan, Rainy Day Burquas, 1967, Dubai

You know, I was just humming this to myself the other day, before trilling some quavering high notes in a short blast. Thanks for posting the words. Brings back memories.

[SanctitasDeo]

This is why I have a hard time taking the UN seriously.

And while, I'm here, thank you, Sean, for all the posts about Saudi Arabia, etc. It has been very interesting to get a closer perspective.

[Sean1427]

Thanks for the comments, SanctitasDeo. It's good to read that someone finds some of what I share interesting. Since 9/11 it's been quite hard to share my experiences with fellow Americans, even with fellow Mormons. In church in the US I've learned that it's often better to be quiet since what I share doesn't usually fit the groupthink. So it's always a refreshing boost to read that someone finds what I share interesting.