Requirement of being an apostle

[John41]

Hey guys I'm having a chat with my friend on another forum about the restored gospel. There are two issues I'm trying to explain to him and I'm hoping you guys can help (we have a religous debate going on at another forum, here is the link Religious Discussion Thread - Page 15 - 2K Sports Forums:

1) When the beloved John bowed at the feet of an angel in Revelation the angel admonished him not to do so. Yet my friend insists that it was Jesus that John bowed down to and that Jesus himself told John not to do so, but to only bow and worship at the feet of His Father. My friend says that you only worship God the Father and never Jesus Christ. Here are the scriptures:

Rev. 19: 10

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev. 22: 8

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

2) My friend insists that in order to be an apostle you must have been witness to Christ baptism, and that there are can be no other apostles other than the original twelve because there names are written upon stones. Here is exactly what he said to me:

as far as apostles go again please pay attention to word apostle, there are ONLY 12 APOSTLES this is clearly documented not only there are 12 apostles, only way they can be an apostle is if they were witnesses from Johns baptism to Messiah's resurrection this is clearly documented in acts, when replacement of the Judas were about to occur, qualifications were made that only those who were there witnessing Messiah in Person were qualified to be an apostle, 12th and Final apostle..any others can say they are apostles, but their names are not found on 12 stones which are 12 names written in heaven..thus they are not apostles.

Mathias was the Final apostle.

when they asked Messiah what was the most important Law and commandment what did he say?

he said:

"you shall love your God with all your heart your mind and your soul,this is the GREATEST commandment, and second is this you shall love your neighbor as yourself on those 2 commandment hangs all Law and prophets"-Messiah

as you see we are always commanded to worship Father, we are never told to worship Messiah.

I appreciate your help fellas.

[Snow]

2) My friend insists that in order to be an apostle you must have been witness to Christ baptism, and that there are can be no other apostles other than the original twelve because there names are written upon stones. Here is exactly what he said to me:

I appreciate your help fellas.

as far as apostles go again please pay attention to word apostle, there are ONLY 12 APOSTLES this is clearly documented not only there are 12 apostles, only way they can be an apostle is if they were witnesses from Johns baptism to Messiah's resurrection this is clearly documented in acts, when replacement of the Judas were about to occur, qualifications were made that only those who were there witnessing Messiah in Person were qualified to be an apostle, 12th and Final apostle..any others can say they are apostles, but their names are not found on 12 stones which are 12 names written in heaven..thus they are not apostles.

Bah!

Him claiming it doesn't make it so any more than me claiming that I am the Queen of Sheba makes that so.

There is no evidence that the original 12 were all eye witnesses to John's baptism of Jesus and Paul, who was an apostle, never met Christ in person.

[Dravin]

1) Revelations 22:8? That's my first thought as the person is clearly identified as an angel. Your friend though may not have any qualms with Christ being identified as such though.

That said my understanding is we worship the Father through the Son, consider for instance who you pray to. So the sentiment that we worship Heavenly Father doesn't create any particular issues.

2) This is kinda confusing as he says there is only 12 but then he says they selected a replacement for Judas. Either there was no replacement for Judas or there were more than 12 apostles (even if Judas lost his place that makes his replacement number 13).

It comes down to differences of interpretation, we don't take the qualifications that were put forth to be set in stone doctrinal requirements to be an apostle. Many other Christians don't either (not that such makes us defacto right) as they consider Paul to be an Apostle. If he believes Paul is an apostle he's contradicting himself in a rather large way, thus my assumption he doesn't.

As far as the rest, I'm not sure what his references are. I don't know anything off the top of my head about 12 names on twelve stones being all there is (and quick searching of the scriptures doesn't reveal anything like that either). Maybe it's a version issue as I'm searching the KJV. It should be noted though that Rev 2:17 states that to he who overcomes, a stone and new name will be given, note also that it is addressed to the Church. He may believe though that only the Apostles (the original 12, so Judas is one who overcame?) qualify as those who overcome.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dravin

[mnn727]

Nothing in the scripture's quoted say what your friend believes.

[Hemidakota]

Hey guys I'm having a chat with my friend on another forum about the restored gospel. There are two issues I'm trying to explain to him and I'm hoping you guys can help (we have a religous debate going on at another forum, here is the link Religious Discussion Thread - Page 15 - 2K Sports Forums:

1) When the beloved John bowed at the feet of an angel in Revelation the angel admonished him not to do so. Yet my friend insists that it was Jesus that John bowed down to and that Jesus himself told John not to do so, but to only bow and worship at the feet of His Father. My friend says that you only worship God the Father and never Jesus Christ. Here are the scriptures:

It wasn't the Lord. The Sons of the Morning who are assigned a ministering spirit. This doesn't mean, the Lord has not appear in his life after the Savior's death. But, someone who was assigned to him is the person who was instructed him and taken him from place-to-place.

Rev. 19: 10

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev. 22: 8

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

2) My friend insists that in order to be an apostle you must have been witness to Christ baptism, and that there are can be no other apostles other than the original twelve because there names are written upon stones. Here is exactly what he said to me:

I appreciate your help fellas.

When person is guided to that celestial sphere, where GOD the FATHER reside, with HIS beloved Son, I would do the same.

Your friend is wrong in a sense. To be an apostle, this was a pre-ordained position. Yes! It was a pre-ordained position like an prophet. Now, this doesn't preclude anyone in this world from not being worthy of such but everyone is assigned a tasking, in this life, or the life to come. The other side of being an apostle, one must be sealed and receive his calling of election before or after being called. You cannot stand in that position without it. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are witnesses of the Savior.

They are many apostles that are called. Even in the case of Mathias, it doesn’t mean he will be with them in the Day of Judgment, to judge those of that era. He simply filled a vacant seat. We simply don’t really know who shall preside with the Savior but that person will know through a special revelation indicating his calling and taking the glory away from Judas.

The Nephites also have twelve apostles, who will preside in judgment over their people in the time of judgment. Same as with anyone of our day, each prophet era, will judge those of that era through the authority of Jesus Christ. Does this make sense? Now, who will be judge? Those who are not heirs until salvation. Those are sealed and set apart, will not have to be judge since they already know their own circumstances. This where, they will by-pass those who are still awaiting this action. Note Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob status.

If not, ponder it and allow the Spirit help you to come to understanding how judgment is done.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Hemidakota

[rameumptom]

In Rev 19:10, the angel clearly identifies himself as a "fellow servant and of the prophets". He was not Jesus, who identified himself differently to others in the visions they received (such as Paul's).

The angel was representing Christ in the vision, but was not worthy of worship.

As for apostles, they are witnesses of Christ's resurrection, not necessarily of his baptism. His baptism, as a matter of witness, is meaningless. John the Baptist baptized many people, yet the witness of their baptism did not make them the Messiah. It was Jesus' resurrection and appearance to the eleven afterwards that made them special witnesses of Christ. And that is how it is today: the modern apostles are special witnesses of the resurrected Christ. Acts 1:22: Peter stated to the others that "must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

[Moksha]

The Apostles started choosing other Apostles after Judas died. Just ask Junia.

[Blackmarch]

Hey guys I'm having a chat with my friend on another forum about the restored gospel. There are two issues I'm trying to explain to him and I'm hoping you guys can help (we have a religous debate going on at another forum, here is the link Religious Discussion Thread - Page 15 - 2K Sports Forums:

1) When the beloved John bowed at the feet of an angel in Revelation the angel admonished him not to do so. Yet my friend insists that it was Jesus that John bowed down to and that Jesus himself told John not to do so, but to only bow and worship at the feet of His Father. My friend says that you only worship God the Father and never Jesus Christ. Here are the scriptures:

Rev. 19: 10

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev. 22: 8

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

2) My friend insists that in order to be an apostle you must have been witness to Christ baptism, and that there are can be no other apostles other than the original twelve because there names are written upon stones. Here is exactly what he said to me:

I appreciate your help fellas.

the requirement of being called an apostle?

-Being called by one who has the authority, and then given the authority and keys to act in that position.

[Hemidakota]

The Apostles started choosing other Apostles after Judas died. Just ask Junia.

If Junia didn't turn-in the Savior for a pouch of of silver, would there be another?

[Moksha]

If Junia didn't turn-in the Savior for a pouch of of silver, would there be another?

You mean Judas Iscariot and the silver coins. Junia was the only woman mentioned in the New Testament as an Apostle, however my own guess is that Mary was indeed an Apostle and just got written out of this prominent role later on.

[Justice]

My first comment would be that there is evidence in the Bible (strong evidence if not proof) that a 13th apostle was called after the death of Judas. There is even evidence that a 14th was called.

People will believe what they choose. But, if his stand is that there can only be 12, then 1 or 2 more would not have been called.

And, what of Paul? Was he an apostle? did he witness the baptism of Jesus? If he did, he was there as a non-believer sent to persecute and/or murder the believers.

[Hemidakota]

You mean Judas Iscariot and the silver coins. Junia was the only woman mentioned in the New Testament as an Apostle, however my own guess is that Mary was indeed an Apostle and just got written out of this prominent role later on.

It was a joke. However,if you believe she was called as an apostle, I simply don't. :)

[Hemidakota]

My first comment would be that there is evidence in the Bible (strong evidence if not proof) that a 13th apostle was called after the death of Judas. There is even evidence that a 14th was called.

People will believe what they choose. But, if his stand is that there can only be 12, then 1 or 2 more would not have been called.

And, what of Paul? Was he an apostle? did he witness the baptism of Jesus? If he did, he was there as a non-believer sent to persecute and/or murder the believers.

Perhaps, the Vatican could chime in and let us know; having over 5000 scrolls in their vault.

Was Paul an apostle? Something I found with great interest, was there anytime did Joseph Smith called him after that manner? After a lengthy research, I could not find one instance; even after Paul visited Joseph, he never mentioned it. But, what is disputable here, Joseph never corrected the verse in Act either. My assumption and personnel feelings, spiritually, he was an apostle of the Lamb. Whether Joseph biblical correction was to restore the content back to its original writing, or, correcting the author.

I can only assume, he was called. Thanks for your added insight.

[Blackmarch]

Perhaps, the Vatican could chime in and let us know; having over 5000 scrolls in their vault.

Was Paul an apostle? Something I found with great interest, was there anytime did Joseph Smith called him after that manner? After a lengthy research, I could not find one instance; even after Paul visited Joseph, he never mentioned it. But, what is disputable here, Joseph never corrected the verse in Act either. My assumption and personnel feelings, spiritually, he was an apostle of the Lamb. Whether Joseph biblical correction was to restore the content back to its original writing, or, correcting the author.

I can only assume, he was called. Thanks for your added insight.

theres been quite a bit of debate both inside and outside of hte church- whether paul was or was not an apostle.

[Suzie]

From Galatians 1:1

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

[Blackmarch]

From Galatians 1:1

yes but does he means as a strong follower, a leader, or as one of the 12?

THe bible also identifies a lady as an apostle.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Blackmarch

[Suzie]

yes but does he means as a strong follower, a leader, or as one of the 12?

THe bible also identifies a lady as an apostle.

In my opinion based on my readings of Paul, he has a different concept of the word "Apostle".

[Hemidakota]

THe bible also identifies a lady as an apostle.

Where is the reference that indicates your postulation?

[Dravin]

Where is the reference that indicates your postulation?

Unless I'm mistaken the source is this: Romans 16

[Hemidakota]

I do appreciate the link. Saves time in looking for it Dravin.

One of the better books in understanding Paul's writing was done by Richard. If people cannot understand my poor excuse of grammar and content, I can only imagine what it was like for those in his days. Anyway, Richard explanation is what I personal believe is what is being conveyed here;

Of the remaining names, two pairs require comment. Greetings are sent to "Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom. 16:7). "Kinsmen" no doubt means that they were Jewish, since Paul used that word of four others in Romans 16 (compare Rom. 9:3). Some argue that they were apostles, a forced interpretation for two otherwise obscure Saints at Rome. Paul apparently means to say that they were converted early, had sacrificed for the gospel, and thus were respected by the apostles. Paul claimed special fellowship from his imprisonment at Philippi. The other two names are important in understanding Paul's confidence in writing to Rome. As noted above, Aquila and his wife Priscilla had "lately come from Italy" when the Emperor Claudius had expelled the Jews "from Rome" (Acts 18:2). They were strong missionaries, for they had convinced Apollos that he had only part of the truth (Acts 18:26). Paul found them so valuable that he brought them to Ephesus (Acts 18:18), from which place they sent greetings (1 Cor. 16:19). Afterward they were free to return to Rome, where Paul sent regards to these fellow laborers who had risked their lives for him (Rom. 16:3-4). Did Paul send them to Rome to survey the situation when he first left Ephesus? They had shared their knowledge of Jewish-Christian tensions at Rome when they labored with Paul on two missionary journeys after their expulsion. They probably kept in contact with the Saints there when they were away; there was a church "in their house" after returning to Rome (Rom. 16:5). Paul could write Romans to a group he had never seen in full confidence of the common brotherhood and Christian unity of belief. But he also wrote with special knowledge of the problems at Rome he had learned of from Priscilla and Aquila. Understanding Paul by Richard Lloyd Anderson

Looking from Sperry's viewpoint;

Corinthian and Galatian saints had seriously impeded his work, and he would therefore counsel his Roman friends to remain united in the faith for their own spiritual well-being. Last, but not least, Paul seems to have had many good friends in Rome, some of them being of Jewish origin (e.g., Priscilla and Aquila, Andronicus, Junias and Herodion, his kinsmen, the members of the household of Aristobulus); others of Greek extraction (e.g., Epaenetus, Asyncritus, Plegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, Philologus, etc.); and still others of Latin descent (e.g., the household of Narcissus, Ampliatus, Urbanus; Rufus, Julia). (See Rom. 16.) The names given do not exhaust the list. Doubtless these friends of Paul's in Rome were a "must" on his list of those to whom he felt he owed greetings. If it be asked why so many of Paul's acquaintances were in Rome, the answer may be that the capital was the focal point for business interests, affairs of state, and the like which drew them for one reason or another. It should be noticed that at the time Paul wrote the Epistle the greater number of Roman saints were of pagan extraction (cf. Rom. 1:5-6, 13-15; 11:13; 15:16), but a group of Jewish members formed an important minority (cf. Rom. 4:1; 6:15; 7:1; 8:15). It may be pointed out that from A.D. 49, the date of Claudius' edict expelling the Jews from Rome, until its repeal by Nero in A.D. 54, conversions to the Church would come mainly from the ranks of the Gentiles. Paul's Life and Letters by Sidney B. Sperry

Any case, I do not believe or anytime there were called as apostles. Edited June 10, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

From Galatians 1:1

Are you Susan Howe? Curious here...

[Suzie]

Are you Susan Howe? Curious here...

What makes you think I am Susan Howe?

[Hemidakota]

Just answer 'yes' or no'. Thanks

Edited June 10, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Suzie]

I'll send you a PM so I don't go more offtopic.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Suzie