Protest for gay rights outside Mormon church offices

[MarginOfError]

Am I detecting some gang mentality here? Soulsearcher's comment was pretty presumptuous. I wasn't terribly offended by - more amused (hence the laughter) at Soulsearchers predictability at reacting to anything I write like this. Over the top. Where in my post did I indicate I didn't care about suicidal gay kids? I actually DO care and believe it's a problem. But I DONT think we can blame Elder Boyd K Packer for those suicides. He wasn't there holding the gun to their heads. Their suicides are a reaction and decision on their part to give up.

I DO understand the dilemma gays have in the church. I"m far more sensitive to it than you give me credit for. Some see the doctrine as holding no promise of hope for being able to ever have sex (the way they want it) or exist in a family-type relationship. It's a sticky situation. But I believe there are answers out there on how they can personally handle life and still be a member of the church. Those answers will be different for each individual. The answers need to be found in quiet times of righteously and humbly coming before Heavenly Father. Not in storming temple square with picket signs and obscenities.

I know gays and their friends and supporters don't like this analogy, but how is their situation any different from hetero singles in the church? I understand the "hope" factor. But in reality, many hetero singles have no more chance of getting married and having a sexual relationship or a family than gays do. I know many of them personally. They are my friends a nd relatives in some cases. They aren't bitterly protesting against the church trying to get the leaders to give them a pass or change some nuanced statement. They aren't out there saying- "Your doctrines are making me feel suicidal." They ARE out there in the world doing the best they can, trying to make the world a better place, trying to live a Christ like life, focusing on all the blessings the gospel gives them and the hope of eternal life. They are doing genealogy, serving as CEOs of successful businesses, teaching primary and Sunday School classes, expanding their knowledge in school, going to foreign countries to teach basic life skills, working in orphanages, planting gardens, serving in soup kitchens, spending time with beloved family. Are they still attracted to people of the opposite sex? I believe they are. Are they tempted? Of course- that's part of our earthly experience. Do they hurt some everyday because of their circumstances? Probably. But they aren't allowing themselves to act victimized. They aren't SO focused on their lack of sex or intimate relationship that they feel the need to rally or call excessive attention to their plight. Some hetero single people do better than others. But they all are given the ability to withstand temptation and come through successfully if they will rely on Heavenly Father rather than the world. Same for gays.

I stand by my opinion inspite of those who disagree with me. And I stand by President Packer for saying boldly what needs to be said. Does the Lord lock us into a place of temptation by giving us inborn tendencies that totally rule our lives? No! He is our Father! Why would he do such a thing? That flies in the face of the very plan of salvation.

It differs in that LDS heterosexual singles aren't ostracized and scorned in the way that LDS homosexual singles are. You're trying to make a point by drawing comparisons across one dimension of a 17 dimensional surface. As long as we ignore the existence of the other 16 dimensions, then your comparisons work. But once you consider a couple other dimensions, it starts to unravel.

Also, I'm not quite sure what the correct interpretation of Elder Packer's words are. I haven't had sufficient time to read it in context and really think about what he was trying to say, but so far there seem to be two common interpreations

• Option 1: "those born with same sex attraction are not destined to homosexual activity." This I agree with.
• Option 2: "The Lord doesn't allow people to be born with same sex attraction." If this is what President Packer intended to say, he'll be very surprised in the next 20 years to learn that he's wrong. It's practically unavoidable that science will soon uncover the genetic predisposition toward same-sex attraction. And to anyone who wants to say that President Packer can't be wrong about this (if it's what he's saying) because he's an Apostle, I remind you that a) prophets in the past have said we would never reach the moon [that is to say, they've been wrong about scientific matters before], and b) there are other Apostles in the current Quorum of the Twelve that disagree with this interpretation.

All that being said, I'd be quite surprised if President Packer had anything in mind other than Option 1. It's unfortunate that his statement was so ambiguous. That doesn't make him responsible for the suicides of homosexuals. What leads to these suicides is the coarseness with which some in our society take these words and pervert them to justify intolerance and rejection of those who struggle with same sex attraction or fall to homosexual activity. (keep in mind, we have a tendency to be much more sever in our rejection of young people who yield to homosexual cravings than we do to those who yield to heterosexual cravings)

What Soulsearcher is saying is that there is a great need to modify our dialog about and with homosexuals so that they can take hold of the Atonement without fear of social rejection from the Church. That still doesn't exist (it barely exists in the overall society, let alone in the Church), and it isn't going to exist if no one speaks up and advocates for it.

[soul, please correct me if I've misrepresented you]

[Seminarysnoozer]

With no offense intended, this is a very good example of what members don't understand. Do you compare your love and attraction to your spouse as an addiction? They are the exact same feelings and desires. I know it's easier for members to compare to addictions that are against their faith, but really you must compare it to the attraction and feelings you have towards the person you are dating or have married. I've struggled all my life and i haven't given in per say, but it hasn't lessened anything. The years it was strongest were the years i denied it most. Again, instead of people guessing and wondering, just ask us, you might not like some of the answers, but as someone who is a smoker i know what an addiction is and trust me, there is a very marked difference between my attraction and my addiction.

What exactly are you saying is it that members don't understand? The gospel of Jesus Christ? The straight and narrow path? The iron rod?

Any pathway that veers from the straight and narrow is not a good one. If an adult is attracted to a child, I think you would agree that that is an obvious bad attraction. I don't think you can lump all attractions together. At some point you are going to have to say which attractions are good ones and which ones are not. Always the bottom line, if you are looking at tendencies that the body drives (carnal nature) is to ask yourself if it leads towards the celestial kingdom or away. Is it in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ as given to us by our current prophets? The voices from the spacious building are many and they laugh and mock our straight and narrow pathway. The body can make a person "feel" like they are doing the right thing. But we are to overcome our bodily temptations that lead us away from God and His plan and potential for us.

My attraction to my husband goes way beyond bodily desires. It is an attraction based in spiritual connection that has a potential to become like God's "husband and wife" connection. It is based in that potential that our love and attraction is founded. To compare some other type of relationship to that kind of relationship is disgusting to me. Maybe some members don't understand what the whole purpose of this life is, the goal. If one doesn't understand the purpose of this life and the potential that many of us our trying to achieve then all sorts of arguments could be made about how any kind of relationship should and could be made as valuable as another. Do you think God's relationship with His spouse is the same or different than His relationship with anyone else? Why?

[zippy_do46]

I am hurt and sad and have thought about me not being in this world? People make jokes about me. They laugh behind my back. They avoid me. They make rude sounds. Science says I can stop and I and others like me think I can not. I am a good person. I am a loney person at times. I sometimes will do things just get attention because I feel no one cares.

Ok, my point is this happens to many people. This world is a cruel world for those that are diffrent. This is how I felt one time. I am over weight and very shy. Do not tell me this does not compare. I have been fighting this all my life. Tell me how many over weight teenagers have ended their lives.

The problem is not one aqainst another. It is how we treat each other. Science can be life savers and does every day. They can also confuse with each day bringing a diffrent discovery.

I say: Let us take science out of the equation.

Lets just not be part of the problem. Never go up to another and tell him he or she is fat, gay, lds, jew, unnatural, etc.

Let us not judge least we be judged.

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

I believe someone on here has a saying about being offended. :)

Just maybe that person is not judging you so do not be so defensive.

Sad, it was a gay that told me he would look better then I would in the dress that I was looking at for my daughter. I did not even think about he was gay. I thought that he was right.

[carlimac]

It differs in that LDS heterosexual singles aren't ostracized and scorned in the way that LDS homosexual singles are. You're trying to make a point by drawing comparisons across one dimension of a 17 dimensional surface. As long as we ignore the existence of the other 16 dimensions, then your comparisons work. But once you consider a couple other dimensions, it starts to unravel.

Would you please educate me on the 17 dimensions. I've never heard of them.

And how am I to know if a person is gay or not unless they tell me. There were several singles in my last ward who very well could have had SSA but they didn't announce it. They just went on their way, living their lives, working, living the gospel and serving in the church- enriching the lives of those around them. If they were gay I never would have known. I think it's the acting out and being defiant and wearing their sexuality on their sleeves that bothers members of the church. AND you cannot tell me that only gays are ostracized. Step into the door of one of my last ward that tried to assimilate two different cultures- American and Hispanic. Oh boy! My sons tried to be friendly with them but were constantly on the outside of their Spanish conversations. This ward also was made up of a large number of student families- all the students in the same medical program. Talk about a clique??? Tick tock the game was locked! Those not in the group were left out of conversation and social activities, lunches, shopping trips, movies being planned for later. The gays don't have a monopoly on being ostracized! All you have to do is walk in the door smelling of cigarette smoke and people turn the other way. (I have to admit being one who isn't very tolerant of smoker smell because it actually makes me nauseous. I need to work on this.)

Also, I had a friend for at least a year- a guy I knew had been excommunicated. I didn't know he was gay for a very long time. We were good friends. He tried to come back to the church but never quite made it and then totally immersed himself into the gay culture- even had a faux marriage. We couldn't and didn't want to relate to one another any more. The rejection between us was not one sided. It went both ways.

Edited October 11, 2010 by carlimac

[MarginOfError]

Would you please educate me on the 17 dimensions. I've never heard of them.

It was a number I made up. A hyperbolous say of saying it's a multidimensional problem.

[Gwen]

Would you please educate me on the 17 dimensions. I've never heard of them.

go back and re read all the threads on this subject. you will find the other dimensions. you have heard of them but you chose to dismiss them the first time.... maybe upon review?

[Seminarysnoozer]

With no offense intended, this is a very good example of what members don't understand. Do you compare your love and attraction to your spouse as an addiction? They are the exact same feelings and desires. I know it's easier for members to compare to addictions that are against their faith, but really you must compare it to the attraction and feelings you have towards the person you are dating or have married. I've struggled all my life and i haven't given in per say, but it hasn't lessened anything. The years it was strongest were the years i denied it most. Again, instead of people guessing and wondering, just ask us, you might not like some of the answers, but as someone who is a smoker i know what an addiction is and trust me, there is a very marked difference between my attraction and my addiction.

(please see my previous post responding to your response) I wanted to add ... the other point I was trying to make is that addiction requires behavior. To become an addiction from simply starting out as a tendency requires repeated behavior. I agree that there is a difference between an addiction and an attraction. I think most everyone in this world does. One doesn't have to be a smoker or an alcoholic etc. In fact, there were many parts of the conference that dealt with addictions of various kinds, whether it is texting, or video game playing or prescription drugs or even lifestyles. I don't have to ask a smoker what addiction is, I can look at myself and look at my drive to food and shopping, which at times in my life have been momentary addictions. We all have to control our passions. But control is not just suppression, it includes driving them in the correct direction. Once one drives themselves down a certain road it is hard to find the way back to the fork in the road.

The attraction may be permanent or it may fade to something that is barely noticeable or not an issue for that person. To accept an attraction as part of themselves that is permanent is already a state of mind of unwillingness to try to control that passion. It is part of the body, but not of the spirit. What aspect of their dual being will win out is the test.

[PrinceofLight2000]

The church alters its statements all the time, as the authorities see fit, does not mean public opinion of a majority will always dictate its actions.

That's my entire point. Yet you still seem content to hold an opinion that runs counter to both the General Authorities and the official statement of the church.

Tendencies can't always be overcome. Temptations can. The changes reflect that.

[Soulsearcher]

I've come to see it doesn't matter. I can quote leaders and i'm wrong. I can tell first and second hand experiences, I'm wrong. I can beg, i can explain, i can cry out while on me knees, but I'm wrong. I can speak for many or i can speak for myself and I'm wrong. I have said again and again i can accept the church's official stance, as made clear through many, but i can't accept what members have done with it, and i'm wrong. There's a saying that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." The Gospel isn't the issue, it's the people. To hear "i understand" from someone and then see them use an example that doesn't even come close shows that no matter what words come from those in the situation, they fall upon deaf ears. I once had a sliver of hope. That there actually might be something to the Christ like love that's preached, that instead of walking blindly and preaching before thought that there might be understanding. Now i see that no matter what, there will not be a change, there will not be a desire to listen, to understand or include, and at the end of the day that some how makes me sadder than people told i should just be dead.

I give up.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Soulsearcher

[Gwen]

this thread has run it's course. all that can be said i think has been said. not sure i see much more "good" that can come from it.

time to close. if higher powers disagree with me then feel free to reopen it.