What we can ALL agree on...

[carlimac]

Carli: I would agree with you that a fireside set up to encourage members to believe homosexual BEHAVIOR is "right" would be... odd...

But that is not what they are for. The topic is usually something along the line of "Loving, helping, and understanding those who struggle with same gender attraction."

It should be noted that homosexual attraction IS normal, and as such, homosexual behavior IS normal for those with homosexual attractions (and homosexual attractions are NOT sinful).

Being gay is very NORMAL to me (and normal is so subjective that I really hate that word).

I would love to get you to the point where you believed homosexuality to be normal, but would never expect you to change your feelings about whether or not it is right.

I think it is very possible to have a view that homosexuality is normal while still believing it is wrong. In fact, those who tend to feel this way in the church also tend to have the best understanding of homosexuality. I know you've struggled a bit about what you don't understand (and hate it when we tell you you don't understand something). I think this is it. I'm pointing it out because you asked me to on another forum a while ago.

Truely I can't see how it is normal given the anatomy of men and women. How can something that opposes the furthering of the species be normal? I honestly can't come up with any reason to believe it's normal. I've tried and tried to get my mind around it and there is no logical explanation. I know it occurs in nature sometimes, but humans aren't mere animals.

Anyway, I do believe it's possible to love individuals with all kinds of traits and leanings whether they are "normal" or not. I have certainly gone through some experiences - totally my fault that are very far from normal. As much as I wanted to convince myself that what I was doing was normal and acceptable- it just wasn't AT ALL. But I still wanted and deserved love and acceptance as an individual. But the frank truth is that what I was doing made people VERY uncomfortable and there was no way I could expect people to write it off as no big deal. I didn't. I tried to minimize peoples' exposure to that which I knew made them uncomfortable. I felt very lonely and just crazy sometimes. I even became as close to being suicidal (without having the guts to end my life) as one can get. I just wanted to disappear without actually pulling the trigger. I totally overcame any fear of flying or driving in bad weather because I thought if I die...what a blessing that would be.

What we do does affect others and it's ridiculous to expect others to just go on and regard us as "normal" when we're doing something that falls way outside the norm. Gays and lesbians do seem to expect the rest of society to view their attractions as perfectly normal. But ...sorry to say, they just aren't. There is no way around it. I'm sorry if this offends you, but might as well just accept it and get on with life. Doesn't mean we can't love and appreciate you.

[GaySaint]

Carli: It is not normal TO YOU. Heterosexuality is not normal TO ME. Just because the "parts fit together" doesn't make it any more normal for me. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would want to engage in heterosexual behavior. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't understand that you DO understand it, and that it is normal for you.

The church teaches that the attractions are perfectly fine - there is no sin therein. That seems pretty normal to me... just another variation like left handedness (which, also, for a time was considered a negative trait by the general population).

But I'm not offended. I'm sad. I'm sad that you even refuse to acknowledge that was seems normal to you might not be normal for someone else. I'm sad that you don't see the word "normal" as completely subjective.

But that's ok. I appreciate that you love and appreciate me anyway... and that's a start.

EDIT: If you haven't listened to this yet, I highly recommend it: 191: BYU Professor Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality | Mormon Stories Podcast Maybe it will help you see just how normal homosexuality is.

[bytor2112]

Carli: It is not normal TO YOU. Heterosexuality is not normal TO ME. Just because the "parts fit together" doesn't make it any more normal for me. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would want to engage in heterosexual behavior. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't understand that you DO understand it, and that it is normal for you.

The church teaches that the attractions are perfectly fine - there is no sin therein. That seems pretty normal to me... just another variation like left handedness (which, also, for a time was considered a negative trait by the general population).

But I'm not offended. I'm sad. I'm sad that you even refuse to acknowledge that was seems normal to you might not be normal for someone else. I'm sad that you don't see the word "normal" as completely subjective.

But that's ok. I appreciate that you love and appreciate me anyway... and that's a start.

EDIT: If you haven't listened to this yet, I highly recommend it: 191: BYU Professor Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality | Mormon Stories Podcast Maybe it will help you see just how normal homosexuality is.

Hmmm....lot's of people think their activities are "normal" but they definitely aren't considered normal by society at large. And to be fair, homosexuality for most people is defined as the sex act and not the attraction. While you consider normal to be subjective, most do not and moral relativism is the cause of much of society's woes.

I don't think the Lord or HIS church sees same sex attraction as "perfectly fine". They surely want us to view those with this type of challenge in a compassionate manner as we would anyone that struggles against sinful desires and temptation.

[Gwen]

And to be fair, homosexuality for most people is defined as the sex act and not the attraction.

this is something i don't understand. how is homosexuality the act? sex is sex, that's the act. homosexuality is how you define your sexuality (the desire for sex). i was heterosexual before i ever had sex. never having sex won't change your sexuality. having sex with the other gender won't change your sexuality. you are what you are. why must ppl twist things to be something different. that only increases the confusion and limits true communication.

[bytor2112]

this is something i don't understand. how is homosexuality the act? sex is sex, that's the act. homosexuality is how you define your sexuality (the desire for sex). i was heterosexual before i ever had sex. never having sex won't change your sexuality. having sex with the other gender won't change your sexuality. you are what you are. why must ppl twist things to be something different. that only increases the confusion and limits true communication.

Sex isn't sex.....there is a difference between gay sex and straight sex. I was hetero before as well and ultimately that led to sex with the opposite sex. In the case of homosexuality....it leads to sex with the same gender and that is why most see homosexuality as the act.

[Soulsearcher]

3. Psychology . a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.

b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical . a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.

b. of natural occurrence.

While using those definitions of normal then there is fair claim to the term normal. Can't rule out it's how we are made so "of natural occurrence" is a very real possibility. The Church it's self has stated that they no longer consider it a mental disorder so again that could be used to lay a fair claim to the term normal.

Again there are lots of normal natural things in the world. Not all are seen as right, but they are normal. It's very easy to state you don't like something so you don't want to see it as normal, though the harder but more accurate way is to say it may be normal but you don't find it right.

Hmmm....lot's of people think their activities are "normal" but they definitely aren't considered normal by society at large. And to be fair, homosexuality for most people is defined as the sex act and not the attraction. While you consider normal to be subjective, most do not and moral relativism is the cause of much of society's woes.

I don't think the Lord or HIS church sees same sex attraction as "perfectly fine". They surely want us to view those with this type of challenge in a compassionate manner as we would anyone that struggles against sinful desires and temptation.

If we worry about society at large considering things normal then the entire LDS Church is out to lunch being as a whole most of the population doesn't consider Mormons normal. I believe that one of the things the church advocates is not catering to society. If we want to be fair then we have to look at if most people are ignorant of fact or not. Just because people think it's just the sex doesn't make it fact it just shows ignorant people, which again the church doesn't support. Also again normal isn't a moral comment, it's more a physical/biological one, you are still entitled to tell people you think the behavior is wrong, but not sure you can tell them it's not normal if that's they way they are.

Again the Church has said many times it's not the attraction that's the sin, it's acting on it, many many speakers have made it clear and the links to the leaders saying so have been posted many times, though i admit members like to ignore the leaders words and make up what they want, such as the "homosexuality is sex" , again the leaders have made it clear that's not so, but it's still a very common way of thinking by certain members , again show lack of understanding of the church's words nothing more. The sad part is this has all been covered at length over the last few weeks and yet it's amazing how many members still rebel against news releases, talks and official comments from the church. I often wonder that for as much as people think we are trying to change the church, why do some members refuse to listen to the words of their leaders if their church is so important to protect?

[bytor2112]

Soulsearcher? I stated a simple fact....most people see homosexuality as sex. I stated why that is....I never concluded that it was correct. Homosexuals have certainly gained a lot of world wide acceptance and without a doubt they should be treated with compassion and love.

Question: If I have same sex attraction and I personally view that "acting" upon my feelings and having sex with someone of the same gender would be a grave sin....then why wouldn't I conclude that homosexuality is.....not normal? Certainly the Lord loves all of HIS children and desires for all of them to retun to HIS presence.......not possible with a homosexual union. Only a marriage for all time and eternity between a man and a woman performed in Holy Temples and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Meaning simply .......homosexuality isn't the norm and isn't part of the Lord's Eternal plan.

Christ said....and note it well:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

AND:

Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

This same counsel applies to ALL sins....to ALL temptations....however consuming or difficult to understand and over come.

Edited October 21, 2010 by bytor2112

[Soulsearcher]

Soulsearcher? I stated a simple fact....most people see homosexuality as sex. I stated why that is....I never concluded that it was correct. Homosexuals have certainly gained a lot of world wide acceptance and without a doubt they should be treated with compassion and love.

Question: If I have same sex attraction and I personally view that "acting" upon my feelings and having sex with someone of the same gender would be a grave sin....then why wouldn't I conclude that homosexuality is.....not normal? Certainly the Lord loves all of HIS children and desires for all of them to retun to HIS presence.......not possible with a homosexual union. Only a marriage for all time and eternity between a man and a woman performed in Holy Temples and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Meaning simply .......homosexuality isn't the norm and isn't part of the Lord's Eternal plan.

Christ said....and note it well:

AND:

This same counsel applies to ALL sins....to ALL temptations....however consuming or difficult to understand and over come.

And again you prove you are seeing it only as a moral view, which again is right and wrong, not normal or not normal. LOL it's fine Bytor, it's common and normal for members to have that limit and i accept it's normal for you :)

[bytor2112]

Soulsearcher.....I accept it (homosexuality) as reality and a confusing one at that. I believe that there is some validity to the notion that SOME people are born gay....or at least seem to be. I have a friend that has a brother and a sister that are both very obviously gay. His brother is very effiminate....looks and acts more like a woman that a man...slender boned...mannerisms, etc. His sister is stocky and gruff....is built like a guy and has male mannerisms. Born that way? I think so.

There are lots of others that are involved with homosexuality that aren't like that. Experimentation, victims of molestation, peer pressure (mainly gals) lust satisfied only by homosexual sex....etc. This is far different...you agree?

I admit that I nearly always associate homosexuality with the sex act and am fairly ignorant regarding the "culture" Gay, queer, homosexual....and all of the other subcatgories...all very confusing.

[Soulsearcher]

Soulsearcher.....I accept it (homosexuality) as reality and a confusing one at that. I believe that there is some validity to the notion that SOME people are born gay....or at least seem to be. I have a friend that has a brother and a sister that are both very obviously gay. His brother is very effiminate....looks and acts more like a woman that a man...slender boned...mannerisms, etc. His sister is stocky and gruff....is built like a guy and has male mannerisms. Born that way? I think so.

There are lots of others that are involved with homosexuality that aren't like that. Experimentation, victims of molestation, peer pressure (mainly gals) lust satisfied only by homosexual sex....etc. This is far different...you agree?

I admit that I nearly always associate homosexuality with the sex act and am fairly ignorant regarding the "culture" Gay, queer, homosexual....and all of the other subcatgories...all very confusing.

I look at it this way. In mankind we know that being selfish, aggressive, dishonest and sexual are natural normal parts of us, it's part of the make up. Are they good healthy parts....not all of them. Normal doesn't have to mean good, wholesome or even things we like. WE are all at a different level and we all tend to view things as very different. I have yet to try and make anyone(that i remember) with in the Church try and accept my lifestyle as "right" just normal and there is a difference though some find it hard to see.

As for the " Experimentation, victims of molestation, peer pressure (mainly gals) lust satisfied only by homosexual sex....etc. This is far different...you agree?" question, I don't know really. I've never met anyone who's not been gay for as long as they can remember. I know some Bi sexuals i could relate all of those to, but never a gay guy, though i also admit that i'm not as widely versed in it as some. I can't deny they exist but i don't know what the ratios are, but yes they are different. The issue is while the born might actually outnumber the rest, that's the group that's minimalized the most.

The last part of your comment i would respond to with, I understand, I've been through a steep learning curve in the last year. What i would suggest is, ask us, you have me and saint on this site who actually do respect the church and aren't out to change it. We'll tell you a lot, most personal experience from both inside and outside the church, and things we've learned. I've spent the last two week reading talk after talk, looking up so many different public statements so i know i look at the church and try to bypass the members. Gays don't have something like that, but you have the two people here who are willing and able to try and have intelligent respectful discourse. We're worth learning about, if for no other reason than we are good people(him and i at least, we have fanatics just like the church) but we have information and experiences that can help people to grow, just like each member of the church can act as a missionary.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Soulsearcher