What we can ALL agree on...

[Just_A_Guy]

But kids who intensely want to have sex, in a religion whose doctrine that tells them that they should not do that now or ever, are inherently going to need help--no?

[GaySaint]

JAG: If they have no hope, and if everything everyone is telling them to do fails, and if they are told they are evil, and ridiculed, and bullied everywhere they go for their "unnatural" desires, probably.

[NeuroTypical]

shouldn't the focus be making sure that the kids never get to the point they need to cry for help at all? If they don't get to the stage of needing to cry for help possibly we prevent those going even further?

Well, society produces a finite amount of "help". That "help" is spread across prevention efforts, treatment, education, etc. Also, since open socialism and central planning is still frowned on in most circles in this country, there's not really any central authority with the ability to implement whatever "focus" gets decided. For example - if some government body told my wife to stop doing work with kids on drugs, and focus solely on gay kids in crisis - she'd tell them to get bent.

It's important to keep reality in mind, when asking the "shouldn't the focus be"-type questions.

But now that we're keeping it in mind, I still don't know how to answer it. Whos focus are you talking about? The government's? The school's? The parent's? The Church's? You use the term "we" - but who do you mean? Are you saying my wife should stop helping meth addicts on the verge of liver failure, so she can go and talk in schools about not doing drugs? Do you judge her somehow less righteous if she prefers to stick with the liver failure guy?

LM

Edited October 15, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[carlimac]

I would just like to see equal "airtime" given for other causes of suicide, too. It just seems that many outspoken homosexuals are so self absorbed that they don't see anyone else as having significant struggles.

Sometimes I want to yell "OK WE GET IT! Your gayness isn't your fault. You feel out of place in a church that is so family oriented. You don't like getting picked on. OK OK OK! Now can we solve some of life's other perplexing problems, too? Would you( the homosexual community- if you MUST call yourselves a community) like to help us in our humanitarian efforts? How about poverty and child abuse and genocide and cancer and war and folks suffering from natural disasters, etc, etc, etc! There is so much more to be obssessing about than whether the world accepts that you like boys better than girls or girls better than boys. If you truely want to find peace and happiness in this world, look outside yourself. Look beyond- WAY beyond your sexual orientation. You may not feel like putting an end to your life afterall."

[Soulsearcher]

Well, society produces a finite amount of "help". That "help" is spread across prevention efforts, treatment, education, etc. Also, since open socialism and central planning is still frowned on in most circles in this country, there's not really any central authority with the ability to implement whatever "focus" gets decided. For example - if some government body told my wife to stop doing work with kids on drugs, and focus solely on gay kids in crisis - she'd tell them to get bent.

It's important to keep reality in mind, when asking the "shouldn't the focus be"-type questions.

But now that we're keeping it in mind, I still don't know how to answer it. Whos focus are you talking about? The government's? The school's? The parent's? The Church's? You use the term "we" - but who do you mean? Are you saying my wife should stop helping meth addicts on the verge of liver failure, so she can go and talk in schools about not doing drugs? Do you judge her somehow less righteous if she prefers to stick with the liver failure kid?

LM

I use we as people in general. Every day we interact with people, why not be aware of how we portray out interactions. Making sure we speak with kindness, understanding and compassion to all people when given the chance doesn't mean we change our priorities in life of take on a new mission, though i guess for some it could. Why can't your wife do both to some degree? Can she not in daily interactions with youth comments on the down side of drugs while still continuing her work. Think before we speak, consider impact of our choices, learn from past mistakes and grow. Widening our approach to somethings does not mean we abandon the others. By and large i don't think it's people in a professional capacity doing the harm, but more people in their personal every day interaction. I'm not sure why one would have to command a person who follows Christ to follow his example. No government can or should, now and then silence can be a greater tool of love than speaking the wrong words.

[Soulsearcher]

I would just like to see equal "airtime" given for other causes of suicide, too. It just seems that many outspoken homosexuals are so self absorbed that they don't see anyone else as having significant struggles.

Sometimes I want to yell "OK WE GET IT! Your gayness isn't your fault. You feel out of place in a church that is so family oriented. You don't like getting picked on. OK OK OK! Now can we solve some of life's other perplexing problems, too? Would you( the homosexual community- if you MUST call yourselves a community) like to help us in our humanitarian efforts? How about poverty and child abuse and genocide and cancer and war and folks suffering from natural disasters, etc, etc, etc! There is so much more to be obssessing about than whether the world accepts that you like boys better than girls or girls better than boys. If you truely want to find peace and happiness in this world, look outside yourself. Look beyond- WAY beyond your sexual orientation. You may not feel like putting an end to your life afterall."

Kinda silly to think we don't see anything outside our struggles. Rather a closed minded assumption really. How do you know what any of us do outside of this discussion? You know for a fact we don't give freely to help with the issues you brought up? Just because we have an issue near and dear to us does not in any way mean it's the only focus of our lives.

[Gwen]

I would just like to see equal "airtime" given for other causes of suicide, too. It just seems that many outspoken homosexuals are so self absorbed that they don't see anyone else as having significant struggles.

Sometimes I want to yell "OK WE GET IT! Your gayness isn't your fault. You feel out of place in a church that is so family oriented. You don't like getting picked on. OK OK OK! Now can we solve some of life's other perplexing problems, too? Would you( the homosexual community- if you MUST call yourselves a community) like to help us in our humanitarian efforts? How about poverty and child abuse and genocide and cancer and war and folks suffering from natural disasters, etc, etc, etc! There is so much more to be obssessing about than whether the world accepts that you like boys better than girls or girls better than boys. If you truely want to find peace and happiness in this world, look outside yourself. Look beyond- WAY beyond your sexual orientation. You may not feel like putting an end to your life afterall."

would you really say what you just did to anyone else? would you tell folks to stop with all the pink in oct about breast caner, we all know about it. stop obsessing already? what about other kinds of cancer?

[Just_A_Guy]

JAG: If they have no hope, and if everything everyone is telling them to do fails, and if they are told they are evil, and ridiculed, and bullied everywhere they go for their "unnatural" desires, probably.

I'd go out on a limb and say that, from a Mormon perspective, even under the best of circumstances they'd need some kind of support system.

Incidentally: There's an interesting post about the whole Packer kerfluffle here. You personally probably won't find much you find new or persuasive in the post itself--but the real paydirt is in the comments.

[TheActualLiz]

LMM,

Thank you for using restraint and careful speech. I will try to do the same. I agree there is a difference between suicidal idealization, suicidal actions, cry for help attempts, actual attempts, and successful attempts.

I am happy that you and your wife are trying to help kids who are suffering from drug abuse, addiction, illegal self medication, etc. It might be worth noting that sometimes there is overlap with drug use and other issues.

In Alma 36: 12 to 16 you can find a pretty accurate description of it feels like when starting to consider suicide. Some people give in and die, others give in and get lucky, others cry for help and find it, others cry for help and fall into the abyss. There is a spiderweb thin line that we have to be careful not to break.

Namaste

[TheActualLiz]

Carl,

Look beyond- WAY beyond your sexual orientation. You may not feel like putting an end to your life afterall."

I hope and pray you never have to put this theory to the test.

[carlimac]

would you really say what you just did to anyone else? would you tell folks to stop with all the pink in oct about breast caner, we all know about it. stop obsessing already? what about other kinds of cancer?

I think you know the answer to that Gwen. Of course not.

There would not be so many suicides if kids/people were taught to focus on looking outward, helping others, lifting someone else rather than wallowing in all the rotten things others are doing to them.

Also I'm going to say this here and then run for cover because this is not going to sit well with many. I personally believe the gay community is adding to the suicides by convincing young people that there is no hope for change, that they are only defined by their sexuality and that the LDS hurch hates them and curses them and is squelching their civil rights- that there is no choice but to leave the church or stay and commit suicide. The LDS church is NOT responsible for that message. It didn't originate with any general authority or prophet. It didn't originate with God. It originated with the father of all lies!!

[Wingnut]

would you really say what you just did to anyone else? would you tell folks to stop with all the pink in oct about breast caner, we all know about it. stop obsessing already? what about other kinds of cancer?

I have.

[GaySaint]

Carli: I just have to say this:

I had the idea in my head that there was no choice but to commit suicide or leave the church long long long LONG before I ever read anything from any organization that would be considered anti-mormon in this regard. That came from what I PERCIEVED was the church telling me I had to change in order to be good.

I realize that was my PERCEPTION, and that isn't EXACTLY the idea the church actually teaches, but the way it is presented, even today, STILL leads to that perception.

Please try to understand at least that from the gay perspective. Otherwise your own words will end up being percieved by some poor gay youth struggling with this as confirmation that there is no place for him/her in the church, which will then reiterate the very thing you claim can't possibly be misunderstood (the church's position on homosexuality). It is misunderstood. Often. Otherwise we wouldn't need to have these discussions, and can you REALLY blame a 12 to 14 year old for internalizing Packer's statement "Why would God do that?" as proof that he/she is evil, even though it was removed from the text? Especially when that man is reveared as a prophet who speaks with God and knows God's inner feelings about the subject?

Will you help, or hinder, in undoing that type of damage?

[Gwen]

I think you know the answer to that Gwen. Of course not.

There would not be so many suicides if kids/people were taught to focus on looking outward, helping others, lifting someone else rather than wallowing in all the rotten things others are doing to them.

Also I'm going to say this here and then run for cover because this is not going to sit well with many. I personally believe the gay community is adding to the suicides by convincing young people that there is no hope for change, that they are only defined by their sexuality and that the LDS hurch hates them and curses them and is squelching their civil rights- that there is no choice but to leave the church or stay and commit suicide. The LDS church is NOT responsible for that message. It didn't originate with any general authority or prophet. It didn't originate with God. It originated with the father of all lies!!

why would one person's cause be ok and not another's? we don't have a need to learn more in a lot of areas? based on your posts i would say it's just this cause, you don't like it so you are tired of hearing it. but it's a very real cause and they have the right to voice it. if you are tired of hearing it stop hanging around threads where it's voiced.

i don't agree with every message out there from the gay community to the youth. that doesn't mean it shouldn't be out there. from what i've read the lds youth who struggle to the point of contemplate taking their own life they have had little influence from the gay community. they aren't allowed to associate with the gay community. their feelings come from the lds culture. we make it very clear our gender is vital to who we are and the accompanying roles that come with it. when you don't fit that mold for whatever reason it makes sorting all this out really hard. many ppl experience depression within the church over this. not saying it's right or wrong or a complete understanding or not, just what is. i can see very clearly how a youth who has such feelings would have a very hard time in the church. there is no support for them, they can't talk about it, what do you expect them to do? it would get internalized and eat at them till all they can think of is getting out, anyway possible. i don't think that kind of environment makes god smile. i think he cries.

it's not about changing doctrine, it's about changing approach. in my opinion yours is rather insensitive.

[ADoyle90815]

It's not just homosexuals or people thought to be homosexual even if they're not who get bullied, it's anyone who is "different." That also includes those with autism and other disabilities. That father who confronted his daughter's bullies on that bus did so because she was bulled because of her cerebal palsy. I think that all bullying, regardless of the reason, needs to be stopped, and the zero tolerance thing should apply to bullies, not the victims as it often does when the victim decides to fight back.

[carlimac]

Carl,

I hope and pray you never have to put this theory to the test.

I have already. Not centered on my sexual orientation but another self centered problem. I was gently brought out of this dark place by being assigned to take a very sick lady to her appointments and to visit her on a regular basis. It made all the difference in the world for me.

[Just_A_Guy]

Also I'm going to say this here and then run for cover because this is not going to sit well with many. I personally believe the gay community is adding to the suicides by convincing young people that there is no hope for change, that they are only defined by their sexuality and that the LDS hurch hates them and curses them and is squelching their civil rights- that there is no choice but to leave the church or stay and commit suicide. The LDS church is NOT responsible for that message. It didn't originate with any general authority or prophet. It didn't originate with God. It originated with the father of all lies!!

I think there's a huge amount of truth in this. There's a fine (sometimes not-so-fine) line between succoring those who are weak, and wallowing with them in self-pity. I fear some of these groups do wind up crossing that line and becoming infected with an acute case of crab-in-the-bucket syndrome.

Doesn't mean that that we are ourselves exempt from the requirement to perform some introspection, though. I can't write off Soulsearcher's and GaySaint's experiences, however much I might want to. We must improve.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I think there's a huge amount of truth in this. There's a fine (sometimes not-so-fine) line between succoring those who are weak, and wallowing with them in self-pity. I fear some of these groups do wind up crossing that line and becoming infected with an acute case of crab-in-the-bucket syndrome.

I've seen stuff exactly like what Carlimac was describing from the secular left far and wide. I think some of us forget that there are more debates going on that come from an entirely secular school of thought with much more ideological rigidity and much less civility. Britrossier has attested to it as well. I'd link to some of this stuff but the obnoxious amounts of language makes me rather you all not read it. For a taste, just read my OP again in the thread I made in Current Events. Here's another instance from the center of the thread:

http://www.lds.net/forums/538035-post17.html

Edited October 15, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[carlimac]

Kudos to this guy!!

(Gay) Mormon Guy: President Packer's Talk... From a (Gay) Mormon Perspective

[PrinceofLight2000]

Kudos to this guy!!

(Gay) Mormon Guy: President Packer's Talk... From a (Gay) Mormon Perspective

Taking apart this statement in context gives it a bit more meaning. Simply living with same-sex attraction does not make you impure. Church doctrine is clear in that respect. So what did he mean by these "inborn tendencies toward the impure"? Aside from pornography, it is tendency and temptation to act on attractions outside of marriage. President Packer was not claiming that we could change homosexual attractions... he was simply stating that each of us has the power to choose to overcome or give in to temptation.

This is exactly what I got out of it the first time around, too. I'm glad I wasn't just imagining things. lol.

[carlimac]

I think there's a huge amount of truth in this. There's a fine (sometimes not-so-fine) line between succoring those who are weak, and wallowing with them in self-pity. I fear some of these groups do wind up crossing that line and becoming infected with an acute case of crab-in-the-bucket syndrome.

Doesn't mean that that we are ourselves exempt from the requirement to perform some introspection, though. I can't write off Soulsearcher's and GaySaint's experiences, however much I might want to. We must improve.

I have done that. I've learned and tempered my judgements (believe it or not) through them. I know a whole lot more than I did a year ago. I appreciate their contributions and their patience in trying to get us straight dummies to understand.

But at times the spirit is whispering to me that Satan is trying desperately to twist and turn the clear messages of the gospel to confuse people and lead them away. Sometimes I feel that when I read GS's and SS's complaints and justifications. I can't put into words what exactly I'm feeling when that happens, but something tells me that the truth- the way things really are is getting muddled and tangled up and twisted around. It's got a spin to it that sounds correct in the worldy sense- but it just doesn't jive somehow with my spiritual sensibilities.

That's why I keep dabbling in this topic on the forums. To see if I can figure out what is getting distorted.Why are so many supporters of the whole gay agenda- be they homosexual or not- getting sucked in? How can LDS homosexuals continue happily in the church (and I believe they can)? How do my own views stack up with gospel truth? How we can possibly reconcile the huge gaps in perceptions. Are my perceptions correct? The only way for me to know is through prayer- and yes I have prayed about this (being a mom and grandma who may have my own progeny "come out" one day- who knows?), and through spiritual promptings. I think that gradually I'm getting a handle on it.

Back to the OP- he's absolutely right. There is NO excuse for bullying. The fact that any person wants to take their own life is very tragic. We need to love and support our fellow travelors in this earth experience as best we can. Unfortunately though, just telling gay kids to go ahead and live out their sexual impulses because that's what God intended for them, is not doing them any favors. There is a better way. In every post, I've tried to suggest "other ways" that I believe coincide with gospel teachings- the way Christ would have them handle the challenge. (Service to others, looking outward, focusing on blessings rather than anything lost, realizing that everyone on this earth came imperfect with challenges to overcome, looking toward eternal life rather than getting so focused on the immediate future, etc. ) I don't think a single one of those suggestions is "insensitive" as Gwen accused me of, or impossible or pushing a single person toward suicide. Satan would have gay people think their plight is hopeless, but Christ's way is a bright path full of hope.

Oh well, guess that's all I can say or do. I'm done here. That's all folks.

Edited October 15, 2010 by carlimac

[TheActualLiz]

I have already. Not centered on my sexual orientation but another self centered problem. I was gently brought out of this dark place by being assigned to take a very sick lady to her appointments and to visit her on a regular basis. It made all the difference in the world for me.

Sorry you had to face such a test

Very glad to hear you found a way out that worked for you :)

Compassionate service can work some amazing miracles. It is also helpful to know that someone else is relying on you! Being responsible for another living being is a wonderful distraction and I highly recommend it as well. There have been days in my life as well when the darkness briefly parted with the thought "but who would feed the cat!"

It is a painful test though and I wish that nobody had to take it.

I firmly believe that it is our responsibility as brothers and sisters to learn to recognize the warning signs that someone is suffering and do what we can to lift each other up. Each of us has been blessed with a unique perspective that can help at least one other person. It is my hope that by gathering all these life experiences an effective plan of action can be developed to help those who are suffering. :)

[Traveler]

I am going to draw from my personal experiences and publicly make knowing that bulling is not as one sided as many on this forum are making it out to be. I joined the army when I was 17 in order that I could be guaranteed to serve a mission when I turned 19. Although I was 17 I was small for my age and weighed about 115 and was about 5’6”. No one warned me about the possibilities I encountered on a regular basis.

I was targeted on many occasions and threatened in efforts to get me involved in homosexual acts. There were a number of occasions when the situation became violent. Having grown up in a family of boys and having a black belt in martial arts was the primary reasons I was able to defend myself. Some may say such is not the norm and is quite uncommon. That is not at all my experience. I was stationed at many different military instillations and this was common at every one of them. It is the single reason that I oppose open gays in the military. I could provide a great deal of information concerning various methods of “gay” bulling and threats – many of which can be seen on any forum discussing this topic. Such as gayness cannot be changed, if you have been involved in gay activities you will never be able to be understood, fit in or accepted by the “straight” community. If for any reason you have been involved in homosexual activity you can never admit it in the straight community so if you tell anyone what happened you will be condemned and not helped by the straight community.

I post this because there is bulling within the gay community attempting to discourage gay individuals from changing or even believing it possible.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Bullying is just one of the bazillions of trials and adversities we may encounter in life. Like any other trial or adversity, we work to avoid, evade, mitigate, minimize, and eliminate them. When they arrive anyway, we work to endure them and emerge stronger.

To the segment of society who is worked into a lather about the subject: If you think you can eliminate trials or adversities, you're fooling yourself. And all this casting aspersions on people who aren't as melodramatically passionate about bullying as you are, is unrighteous and uncharitable. If you want to make stopping bullying a focus of your existence, go for it. Inform, persuade, act, do whatever you like. But when you start looking down your nose at me for not placing bullying on the same pedestal you do, that's when you lose my interest.

Put simply - life is full of adversity. I'll handle this fact in my way, and it may not be your way. My way involves teaching my kids that being bullied isn't a crime against existence - it's something that will just probably happen. Your choices in reaction to such things, help define your character - so make good choices. I'm teaching them to understand bullies, and that they may or may not be bad guys. I'm teaching them the difference between enduring something and tolerating something. And yeah, they get in trouble when they do any of it themselves.

LM

[applepansy]

Carli: It's a big production as of late because of the sheer numbers of gay suicides recently. I'm sure if a bunch of people were committing suicide because of their gender or race, or any other reason, the media would be addressing that specific concern too.

Obviously it isn't just gay people who need affirmation to be mentally healthy - everyone does - but it should also be obvious that something is going wrong in regards to affirmations being recieved by gay people who are committing suicide.

Kids from all walks of life are killing themselves over bullying. 20/20 on ABC just did a segment on it last night. Its a big issue across the board.

Edited October 16, 2010 by applepansy