Joseph Smiths first vision

[Jmaddox]

Yes I was wondering if anyone can explain what happen to Joseph Smith to be able to see the Resurrected Body of God and Jesus Christ because I am a little confused on how he was able to see them and there Glory with out dieing. Don't miss read this I know that Joseph Smith saw them I just want to understand how like was he Translated or what. Thanks for the help!!

[bytebear]

The same way Peter saw Jesus in his glory on the mount of transfiguration, and the same way Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father in his vision. The exact process is unknown, but the Holy Spirit can shield an imperfect person from the full glory of God so that God can be seen and the man not be destroyed.

[BenRaines]

Is it possible he saw them while he was in spirit but not with mortal eyes?

Ben Raines

[HiJolly]

The same way Peter saw Jesus in his glory on the mount of transfiguration, and the same way Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father in his vision. The exact process is unknown, but the Holy Spirit can shield an imperfect person from the full glory of God so that God can be seen and the man not be destroyed.

And, presumably, the Holy Spirit can also protect trees and such, for when Joseph felt the incredible heat of the light that descended into the sacred grove, he marveled that the trees did not burst into flame.

I have this thing about the heat of the Glory of the Lord.

being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord …[ under a realizing sense (if the bible be true) ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, seek and you shall find, and again, if any man lack wisdom, let of God who giveth to all men liberally & upbraideth not. Information was what I most desired at this time, and with a fixed determination to obtain it,] I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”

1835-36 — Account, Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.

HiJolly

[Traveler]

Yes I was wondering if anyone can explain what happen to Joseph Smith to be able to see the Resurrected Body of God and Jesus Christ because I am a little confused on how he was able to see them and there Glory with out dieing. Don't miss read this I know that Joseph Smith saw them I just want to understand how like was he Translated or what. Thanks for the help!!

As a deeply religious person and a scientist I have wondered the same things that you are asking. I have speculated that perhaps Joseph saw a vision or perhaps a type of holographic image of Jesus and the Father. To be honest I am not sure – but there is more than the first vision. Jesus also appeared at the Kirkland Temple.

I have been at the sacred grove and attempted to think of that place where Joseph kneeled in prayer – but the spirit did not let me know the exact spot – only that I was close. But at another time and place I have stood at the exact spot where the Savior appeared to a Prophet and I have known fully that I stood on sacred ground.

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

Is it possible he saw them while he was in spirit but not with mortal eyes?

Ben Raines

Yes, I think that's very possible. ...though I will say that in a vision of this nature it's so very seamless, between transcendence and mortality, that the change is not easily noticeable in the moment.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

The process is like this:

The person is transfigured, or temporarily changed so they can see heavenly things without dying. Also, God withholds much of his glory, so that the person does not die, but can still see God. We learn this from Moses, who saw God face to face, but was not allowed to see the fullness of God's glory, otherwise he would die (and so was shown God's back).

Joseph saw them in vision. Much glory was displayed, but it was not a fullness of their glory. And Joseph was transfigured. Afterward, he was without strength for a period of time, and had to rest to regain enough strength to return home.

In the ancient text, Ascension of Isaiah, Christ descended through the various levels of heaven, emptying himself of glory as he reached the next lower level so that the angels on that level could stand in his presence. I believe this to be a major portion of the process: God empties himself of much of his glory, and man is temporarily transfigured into a higher being, to meet in the middle.

[Traveler]

One of the things I find most interesting as man and science looks out into the universe in search of life is that for the most part science has no idea what to look for. Many think there is no evidence of G-d. Based on what? What do we look for to find evidence of “The Living G-d”?

I would suggest that light is the first clue. The second clue is intelligence and / or truth.

The Traveler

[TL10]

The same way Peter saw Jesus in his glory on the mount of transfiguration, and the same way Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father in his vision. The exact process is unknown, but the Holy Spirit can shield an imperfect person from the full glory of God so that God can be seen and the man not be destroyed.

Adding to that; in layman's terms, it basically means that Joesph had 'spiritual sunglasses' so that he didn't burn up in God's glory.

[spamlds]

The answer is to be found in the standard works. We read in Moses chapter 1 in the Pearl of Great Price about the appearance of the Lord to that prophet. When the Lord left him, Moses collapsed and was left without strength for some time. It says:

9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. (Moses 1:9-11)

Joseph Smith reported a similar experience. He was left without strength for a brief period after the First Vision. He apparently became more conditioned to receiving visions and revelations over time. After receiving a vision from which we get Section 76, Sidney Rigdon, who saw the vision with Joseph, was left weakened. Joseph commented something to the effect that Sidney was not as used to it as he was.

Notably, in Moses, we read that Satan appeared as an angel of light to deceive Moses, declaring himself to the the Only Begotten. Moses discerned that this was a deception because: "For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?" (See Moses 1:14)

It takes no special quickening to see an angel of light. To see the Lord, one must be quickened in the spirit to be able to endure his glory. Otherwise the prophet would perish in the process.

[Tantalus]

Why would vision of God destroy a human? Vision is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain. How would anything that we can see in our light spectrum destroy us?

[Just_A_Guy]

At the risk of making the spiritual overly scientific: It isn't the vision; it's the proximity.

Our theology is that for reasons not completely understood by us, no unclean thing can be in the presence of God in His glory. Either we have to be spiritually and physically cleansed in order to withstand His presence, or God has to "turn the glory off".

I should note that this is fun to discuss in the abstract, but trivial in the grand Gospel scheme of things. We don't go to church and discuss minutiae like this every Sunday, and I hope this discussion isn't giving you a skewed perception of what's really important to Mormons.

[Tantalus]

At the risk of making the spiritual overly scientific: It isn't the vision; it's the proximity.

Our theology is that for reasons not completely understood by us, no unclean thing can be in the presence of God in His glory. Either we have to be spiritually and physically cleansed in order to withstand His presence, or God has to "turn the glory off".

I should note that this is fun to discuss in the abstract, but trivial in the grand Gospel scheme of things. We don't go to church and discuss minutiae like this every Sunday, and I hope this discussion isn't giving you a skewed perception of what's really important to Mormons.

Lol, no it's not. I just like poking at specifics and scratching all surfaces.

So the idea is hes so pure that he destroys impure things/people, and for some reason can't keep that "glory switch" turned off? Maybe the glory is connected to his God abilities so when he turns it off hes vulnerable or something.

[NeuroTypical]

We got nothing to offer you on the subject but speculation, Tantalus. When Joseph smith was writing an account of the vision, he tried the word fire, crossed it out, then wrote light, crossed that out, then tried glory. Apparently he was struggling to adequately describe the experience too.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Yes I was wondering if anyone can explain what happen to Joseph Smith to be able to see the Resurrected Body of God and Jesus Christ because I am a little confused on how he was able to see them and there Glory with out dieing. Don't miss read this I know that Joseph Smith saw them I just want to understand how like was he Translated or what. Thanks for the help!!

Jesus is God as a human, the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15), He is God in a form that you can look, talk with and touch without dying. So if you could look at Jesus, you could say you've seen God, you would have seen the Father (John 14:7-9, no it's not just a family resemblance!). Yet at the same time you haven't really seen Him as He is, and what that looks like I don't think we'd ever be able to take in, no matter how long we looked.

Did Isaiah or the Israelites, or John see God? Yes, and no: They saw a representation of Him, but not necessarily God Himself, as He truly is. In the OT, people usually freak out just after they've talked to the Angel of the Lord because they realize they had just seen God and think they're going to die. But of course, they don't die because they didn't actually see God as He is.

Jesus is the ultimate realization of this tendency of God's to reveal Himself, ironically, by concealing Himself when He interacts with us.

I think the First vision has a few Theological problems: seeing Jesus is one thing, seeing the Father right next to Him is another, Joseph Smith should have been dead (and as mentioned above, you don't need anything other than Jesus to see the Father, who is invisible anyway). Smith was clearly in his physical body, but even if he were in spirit, it wouldn't have helped: the problem is not just our skin, but our sin. Who can can stand in the presence of the Holy God?

[Just_A_Guy]

I would just clarify that the above is essentially trinitarian and thus not in harmony with conventional LDS theology.

[Not trying to black-list anyone; just want to be sure Tantalus understands what Mormon theology embraces and what it doesn't.]

[Blackmarch]

Yes I was wondering if anyone can explain what happen to Joseph Smith to be able to see the Resurrected Body of God and Jesus Christ because I am a little confused on how he was able to see them and there Glory with out dieing. Don't miss read this I know that Joseph Smith saw them I just want to understand how like was he Translated or what. Thanks for the help!!

The holy ghost can purify those who are called to the presence of God.

[HiJolly]

At the risk of making the spiritual overly scientific: It isn't the vision; it's the proximity.

Our theology is that for reasons not completely understood by us, no unclean thing can be in the presence of God in His glory. Either we have to be spiritually and physically cleansed in order to withstand His presence, or God has to "turn the glory off".

I should note that this is fun to discuss in the abstract, but trivial in the grand Gospel scheme of things. We don't go to church and discuss minutiae like this every Sunday, and I hope this discussion isn't giving you a skewed perception of what's really important to Mormons.

Good comments, but I wanted to add my view, FWIW.

It's not so much the vision OR the proximity. It's the degree of Glory the heavenly being chooses to appear with. Some beings (the resurrected ones) can choose how much Glory to imbue, but other beings cannot so choose. And yes, none of this is central to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, FWIW.

HiJolly

[Guest DeborahC]

For me, the bottom line is this:

Joseph Smith saw them because they WANTED Joseph Smith to see them.

[JohnnyRudick]

For me, the bottom line is this:

Joseph Smith saw them because they WANTED Joseph Smith to see them.

I Like that:p

Thanks Deborah:)

[norgaards]

Is it possible he saw them while he was in spirit but not with mortal eyes?

Yes, that quite possible. I say that because that's what happened to me when I first was converted back in 1979, three years before I found the Church. I don't want to discuss this in details as it is a holy experience for my. Can only say that while I had my personal experience, I was out of the ordinary condition in the flesh. After I had received the vision, or visit you may say, I returned to the normal condition and could again see the things around me. So I suppose that it may have been the same way - in the spirit.

John