Warm/Hot Drinks

[hordak]

i think we all should become vegetarian. Back in the times of the bible they sacrificed animals so they could eat but today it is just slaughtering so we can have food that we don't need just because it tastes good.

d&c 49

18and whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of god;

Just saying

[Justice]

he stays away from a lot of honorable things (cursing, rated R movies, sex before marriage, etc)

Am I reading this wrong?

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by Green44

he stays away from a lot of honorable things (cursing, rated R movies, sex before marriage, etc)

Am I reading this wrong?

LOL! He might have meant horrible but his fingers got it wrong? :)

M.

[LDSChristian]

I'd have to say the Word of Wisdom is more like how Abraham was commanded to kill Isaac, a test of obedience to the Lord although it's still good to follow. Take caffeine for example. If you drink something with caffeine in it for years it will eat away at the lining between your stomach and your chest.

[Wingnut]

LOL! He might have meant horrible but his fingers got it wrong? :)

M.

I was thinking "he honorably stays away from a lot of things." But yeah, I thought it was odd, too.

[Suzie]

d&c 49

Just saying

I interpret that scripture in a completely different way. I think we have a big problem in English with the double negative (the footnote doesn't help much). However, let's not forget verse 21:

21. And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

Or this one:

12Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

In most scriptures I have read there seems to be a connection between eating meay and a need to survive. I think the figure of billions of animals being slaughtered every year in the US just for the "taste" goes beyond any "need", IMO.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Suzie

[slamjet]

Great. I'm going to be denied entry into the Celestial Kingdom because of my affinity for ribeyes.

[Suzie]

Great. I'm going to be denied entry into the Celestial Kingdom because of my affinity for ribeyes.

Oh your affinity for dead animals.

J/k!

[slamjet]

Oh your affinity for dead animals.

J/k!

Dead TASTY animals.

[Suzie]

Dead TASTY animals.

I'll say the prayer that you have in your signature.

[hordak]

I interpret that scripture in a completely different way. I think we have a big problem in English with the double negative (the footnote doesn't help much). However, let's not forget verse 21:

Or this one:

In most scriptures I have read there seems to be a connection between eating meay and a need to survive. I think the figure of billions of animals being slaughtered every year in the US just for the "taste" goes beyond any "need", IMO.

Should have put a as it was meant to be light hearted. But the revelation was given because a bunch shaker teachings in the area prevented some converts from eating pork and many obstained from meat altogether.

On top this the billions of animals slaughtered, are breed for that purpose. There are not many heards of wild cows and chicken roaming around and they wouldn't be if we didn't eat them.

Also 16 million pounds of that beef comes from desert farms. Largest cow calf operation in the US with 44,000 head of cattle. Owned and operated by.....

The church

[Guest]

I interpret that scripture in a completely different way. I think we have a big problem in English with the double negative (the footnote doesn't help much). However, let's not forget verse 21:

Or this one:

In most scriptures I have read there seems to be a connection between eating meay and a need to survive. I think the figure of billions of animals being slaughtered every year in the US just for the "taste" goes beyond any "need", IMO.

MEAT contains PROTEIN. You need PROTEIN to survive.

Now, if you ate meat when you already had a belly full of protein (Like gorging yourself at the buffet at Golden Corral), then yeah, that's not good.

[Suzie]

MEAT contains PROTEIN. You need PROTEIN to survive.

Meat isn't the only source of protein.

[Suzie]

By the way, I am not a vegetarian (I don't cook it at home but I eat it only when dining out) so I'm not bias. However I think most people consume way too much meat and for some reason they have the erroneous idea that they MUST have it otherwise they will perish (being a lil dramatic).

How many people wonder about PROTEIN when eating a t-bone steak?

[Backroads]

I think we all should become vegetarian. Back in the times of the Bible they sacrificed animals so they could eat but today it is just slaughtering so we can have food that we don't need just because it tastes good.

As has been said, it's probably not the best thing to command. I dont think there is anything wrong, of course, with choosing to be vegetarian/vegan. But the scripture mentioned seems to frown upon commanding people to do it. Don't get me wrong: I think vegetarianism/veganism are extremely good things.

[slamjet]

As has been said, it's probably not the best thing to command. I dont think there is anything wrong, of course, with choosing to be vegetarian/vegan. But the scripture mentioned seems to frown upon commanding people to do it. Don't get me wrong: I think vegetarianism/veganism are extremely good things.

In other words, the revelations are not that specific, leaving it up to our own personal ideals. So if veganism suits you, then more power to you.

[mordorbund]

I've been noticing a lot of confusion around what's required by and contained in The Word of Wisdom, and I think it's because we use the phrase for two different things.

1) Section 89 is the Word of Wisdom. It is counsel to the Saints (or even the least of Saints), but is not commandment. It would be good for us to live it, but we are not required to. This includes such things as eating meat sparingly, only using tobacco for bruises, and using "strong drinks" exclusively for washing (the "weaker" alcohols seem to be ok). It also reminds us that wheat is for man, and corn for the ox, so living it means the husking business will take a hit.

2) The Word of Wisdom is the standard for Temple worthiness. As a policy, we are to abstain from the following: "hot drinks" - defined as coffee and tea; alcohol - weak or strong; tobacco - this includes chewed, smoked, or grilled; illegal drugs; and habit-forming drugs unless perscribed and monitored by a competent physician.

The first definition has plenty of wiggle room as it is not a commandment, which means you can consult with the Lord and learn what portion you should live. The second has very little ambiguity. It is clear that neither meat nor corn enters into it. Neither does bleached flour. The variety of tea, sure. If there is a question over whether the tea you like is acceptable (or your medicinal coffee, or your vanilla extract, or your cough syrup, etc) talk to the people that control your temple recommend. The policy is specific to Temple worthiness, so talk to the gate-keepers.

[Suzie]

Also 16 million pounds of that beef comes from desert farms. Largest cow calf operation in the US with 44,000 head of cattle. Owned and operated by.....

The church

Hi Hordak I just saw this. Do you have any good links I could check with regards to this? Thanks a lot.

[hordak]

Hi Hordak I just saw this. Do you have any good links I could check with regards to this? Thanks a lot.

Deseret Ranches

[Green44]

Wow, its been a long time since I came back to this.

And yea you guys understand what I was asking, I appreciate pointing out my weird sentence.

Soooo, I'm even more confused than I started. fyi

1)How is 'Hot Drinks' confined to only tea and coffee (yes i know 1800s) when it was commanded by an omnipotent God?

Actually reading the part in the WoW (which is a great abbreviate btw) makes it seem like soup would count as a nono.

2)Is caffeine a problem? Most say no, but it is always brought up. I'm guessing its just thrown in there to add to the negativity of the substance? idk

3) IDK if Calli Tea is only my friend's thing, but he told me it was 'mormon herbal tea' ... and there is green tea in it. Does anyone drink this or know of it?

4)The whole bacon thing is because Pork is seen as the ultimate "non-kosher" animal. I totally value vegetarians/ism, I was a pesco - ovo vegetarian for a little bit, not anymore. But will try again soon. America is too meaty... in so many ways.

5)Again reading the WoW it totally seems like LDS's would only eat meat VERY occasionally because that one has circumstances and all... "have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine"

I think that is all for now. Thank you for your replies!!! It seems to me that the WoW is to be taken individually, and one can pick and choose what applies to their life?

[Dravin]

1)How is 'Hot Drinks' confined to only tea and coffee (yes i know 1800s) when it was commanded by an omnipotent God?

It has been clarified by those with the authority to do that such is what was meant by the phrase. Considering God himself did not come down and dictate things word for word there is no prohibition against colloquial/idiomatic speech or even struggling to find the exact right way to phrase things.

Though one can extend this question to any scripture in which people interpret things differently. Of course if it had said coffee and tea would we be asking this question about what kinds of tea? We can (though won't necessarily do so) bring ourselves to a juncture why if the Lord meant no coffee and tea of any type (By the current understanding of the scripture) he didn't say:

Infusions using Camellia sinensis, either hot or cold, are to be avoid regardless of manner of preparation of the plant itself via fermentation, raw, or picking and using of the young underdeveloped leaf. Nor are foods containing Camellia sinensis to be consumed whether fermented, raw, using the young leaf or (insert any other variations on the preparation of the Camellia sinensis out there). However, infusions using different good herbs, baring those of the Coffea genus, may be infused and consumed hot, at a temperature less than X degrees, or cold.

Heck, we can even debate sparingly where it concerns meat, why not give us a hard number of how much flesh per day, or some sort of formula by body weight about what amount is considered sparingly. Without a doubt hot drinks isn't terribly clear (looking back, removed from culture and context) and unless I'm mistaken was clarified even within Joseph Smith's lifetime, but in communicating the revelation that we should avoid coffee and tea the word Joseph Smith choose to voice such was hot drinks.

For what it's worth you run into this sort of stuff quite a lot in the scriptures. I'm sure at the time various scriptures used to support Trinity/Modalism/Godhead/Something made perfect sense when they were written down and if you brought the authors back they'd be flabbergasted by how it isn't clear to us. Of course, it's also possible that some scriptural vagueness is intended to have us seek out inspiration and greater understanding on the matter instead of simply relying on an exhaustive list of does and don'ts. We find tithing isn't defined any more clearly 10% of our increase (current policy on what it is) and I'm sure a tome could be written defining what exactly loving God with all your heart, might, mind and strength entails.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Dravin

[mnn727]

In most scriptures I have read there seems to be a connection between eating meay and a need to survive. I think the figure of billions of animals being slaughtered every year in the US just for the "taste" goes beyond any "need", IMO.

Oh, please! Look; I won't tell you that you must eat meat, but don't you tell me I can't.

Thw WoW was not even given as a commandment when given.

God gave us guidelines and did not give us exacts in this, he also gave us brains-- its about living the commandments as you see them.

Edited January 19, 2011 by mnn727

[Backroads]

It's true that there are plenty of other great sources of protein besides meat. Frankly, I've seen a lot of vegan/vegetarian parents who raised their kids that way, and those kids were a lot healthier than the kids whose parents decided greasy fishsticks and cheeseburgers were healthy meals. Anyone who knows nutrition can eat healthy with or without meat, and it depends on the individual body. I think some people need more/less meat than others.

There is also the subject of keeping even meat in moderation, though. We are supposed to be stewards of the earth, after all.