Scouting and the LDS Church

[beefche]

... how did that work out? How on earth did he pass the Criminal Background Check? Did the ward actually submit his registration, or is it one of those deals where no application was ever turned in and the BSA has no idea this man is partipating?

Huh? What part of that post makes you think this man was doing something illegal and was never found out?

[Wingnut]

Yeah, I'm confused on that being a bad thing, too.

[Backroads]

Huh? What part of that post makes you think this man was doing something illegal and was never found out?

Trust me: 14 years in prison will most likely keep you from volunteering with the Scouts. The ward might be perfectly aware of this, but I promise you it would be very hard for the local council to accept him participating in the Scouts. Most likely the Scouts would have denied him, which makes it seem to me that this ward never officially registered him with the Boy Scouts.

[Backroads]

oops... I totally read that wrong, folks. I thought it said prison, not position. That's what got me.

[Wingnut]

oops... I totally read that wrong, folks. I thought it said prison, not position. That's what got me.

I totally wish I could laugh at that post twice. That made my afternoon. Sorry to mock, but it was hilarious.

[MarginOfError]

oops... I totally read that wrong, folks. I thought it said prison, not position. That's what got me.

Oh...and here I thought you were being sarcastic about the background check thing. I'll have to consider removing my laugh.

[Blackmarch]

Do boys start participating in scouts at 8? What do they do then? Meet monthly? Weekly?

I've been a member for almost 20 years and there are still so many things that I never realized. Only two years ago I found out there were Saturday evening sessions of Stake Conference. Someone needs to pay more attention:D

well i recall having a cub scout activity every week. and the biggere get togethers were only 1ce a month if i recall right. (its been a while tho..)

[Guest]

well i recall having a cub scout activity every week. and the biggere get togethers were only 1ce a month if i recall right. (its been a while tho..)

My son is 9 - he's in cub scouts. They meet every Wednesday - just like the YM/YW meet every Wednesday and the primary girls meet on Wednesday (it's not Girl Scouts that's for sure). That's their Den meeting.

But, once a month they meet for a Pack meeting instead of a Den meeting. Parents are supposed to attend Pack meetings, but not all of us do - my husband is an 11-year-old-Scout leader and they meet at the same time and they are not in the same Pack and I'm in school at that time. They don't meet when school is out - summer break, winter break, spring break.

My son is usually the only one in complete uniform. Most of the kids in his den/pack only has the buttoned shirt. Some have the scarf. Some have the hat. Nobody else has the shorts/pants except for my son. And being in Florida, it's common to find the blue scout shirt paired with bermuda shorts. We have our old bishop's wife as the scout leader now and she is great - she's working on getting everybody wearing uniforms and earning pins/loops. Before, the activities were so unplanned that the kids don't have a set idea of what they're working towards.

The Scoutmaster has no clue - he's never been a boy scout, so the bishop's wife (who has a wood badge) is basically running the show teaching the Scoutmaster so he can lead better.

My husband's scouts rarely had uniforms on until my husband became the leader. And the people who held the calling before didn't have a plan (I doubt they even knew what they were doing). Now, my husband tries to get them all to First Class level, or as close to it as possible before they leave the 11-year-old program so they have a better chance at getting an Eagle before the teen-age hormones kick in and distracts them.

I like the way my husband runs things. I was pretty amazed that after teaching the kids how to do the different knots, he taught them to build a rope bridge and we actually got to cross it - even the big guys who are over 200 lbs. It was something the kids were really excited to build and I'm sure that learning stuck with them somehow. It's not really necessary to build the bridge to earn the badge or whatever it is they earn.

Edited January 25, 2011 by anatess

[theoriginalavatar]

Just trying to get some opinions without really ranting:

What do y'all think of the Church's use of Boy Scouts as its youth program?

Part of me loves that immediate connection with the Boy Scouts, but I also think participation might be more genuine if it were optional.

If it's good enough for President Monson to endorse (and recently, I might add), then it's good enough for me.

[Backroads]

So today I had a woman call up looking for her son's troop number, which I was all too happy to do for her; however I did let her know she can ask her son's Scoutmaster for any information as he would have the most immediate access.

Apparently, no one in her ward is sure who the scoutmaster is.

[Wingnut]

I had an experience last night that frustrated me. My husband is very involved with scouting, but in a non-LDS troop. I am the YW president in my ward, and our program is relatively small. We have a fair handful of girls, but no active young men in our ward. Once a month we have combined activities with the youth from the ward with whom we share a building. Last night we had our annual planning activity with that ward. The youth and leaders came up with probably over 30 activity ideas, then we voted on them. Among them were paintball and Nerf war. Paintball got nixed because of finances, and Nerf war got nixed because it had been done recently anyway.

Before eliminating these two, however, I spoke with the YM presidency in the other ward, who were sitting next to and behind me. I explained to them that their boys couldn't actually participate in either of those two activities, if they were registered Boy Scouts. They looked at me quizzically and I explained to them that BSA policy doesn't allow scouts to point anything resembling a firearm at another person. Shooting ranges are fine, but something as innocuous as a water-gun fight is not. The YM president didn't really say anything at first, but just thought about it. His counselor gruffly said, "Well that's why we won't do it as Scouts, but for a Young Men activity instead." I pointed out that the policy extends to family play in the backyard, and it didn't matter what you called the activity. His response then was, "Well, we just won't tell the BSA. What they don't know won't hurt them." At this point, the YM president asked me how I knew of that policy, and I told him that my very-involved-in-Scouts husband had told me, leading up to the previous Nerf war activity.

Like I said, those two activities eventually were eliminated due to other reasons, but I was really irked by the cavalier attitude that they were above the rules.

[Backroads]

Technically, any activity you want to be sanctioned by the BSA requires a tour permit. If we don't know, you can't sue us for anything that happens!

We have had to tell wards they have to do things as ward activities as they refuse to comply with our rules... the three-week policy for tour permits in March is going to be such a bugger...

Edited January 26, 2011 by Backroads

[hordak]

I had an experience last night that frustrated me. My husband is very involved with scouting, but in a non-LDS troop. I am the YW president in my ward, and our program is relatively small. We have a fair handful of girls, but no active young men in our ward. Once a month we have combined activities with the youth from the ward with whom we share a building. Last night we had our annual planning activity with that ward. The youth and leaders came up with probably over 30 activity ideas, then we voted on them. Among them were paintball and Nerf war. Paintball got nixed because of finances, and Nerf war got nixed because it had been done recently anyway.

Before eliminating these two, however, I spoke with the YM presidency in the other ward, who were sitting next to and behind me. I explained to them that their boys couldn't actually participate in either of those two activities, if they were registered Boy Scouts. They looked at me quizzically and I explained to them that BSA policy doesn't allow scouts to point anything resembling a firearm at another person. Shooting ranges are fine, but something as innocuous as a water-gun fight is not. The YM president didn't really say anything at first, but just thought about it. His counselor gruffly said, "Well that's why we won't do it as Scouts, but for a Young Men activity instead." I pointed out that the policy extends to family play in the backyard, and it didn't matter what you called the activity. His response then was, "Well, we just won't tell the BSA. What they don't know won't hurt them." At this point, the YM president asked me how I knew of that policy, and I told him that my very-involved-in-Scouts husband had told me, leading up to the previous Nerf war activity.

Like I said, those two activities eventually were eliminated due to other reasons, but I was really irked by the cavalier attitude that they were above the rules.

I laugh because i agree with the cavalier attitudes. Absurd overreaching policy that i would ignore as well.

Reminds me when my daughter tries to get her brother in trouble for saying the "H-word".

I had to explain to her just because you can get in trouble at school for saying "I hate billy" doesn't mean your brother saying i hate broccoli at home will.

Besides, from list of prohibited activities

Parasailing, or any activity in which a person is carried aloft by a parachute, parasail, kite, or other device towed by a motorboat, including a tube, or by any other means, is unauthorized.

You wouldn't tell your son, sorry, you can't go tubing on our vacation. You're a boyscout. Would you?

Though i do see the point about them calling it a young mens activity, to get around the scouting rules being an issue.

I don't however think those rules apply when at home. Looks more like a we don't want get sued sort of thing to me.

[Backroads]

Looks more like a we don't want get sued sort of thing to me.

Pretty much what it is!

Frankly, the BSA hates denying all this stuff. The Scout Law and Oath are taught... you would think Scouts would use their heads. But that's not how it works in our society...

[Saguaro]

I'm sure it varies from ward to ward, or even stake to stake, but I get irritated by the pressure put on boys to become eagle scouts. I made it to Life and I turned out just fine, but I've heard discussions in meetings and they make it sound like if they don't get their eagle they're not going to go on missions and they're going to turn out to be losers. My son is 16 and doesn't have his eagle and I'm not pressuring him to get it, I want him to want to get it, I will be there to help and encourage him but I'm not going to force him. I know many parents who won't let their kids drive or date until they get it, or even lock them in their rooms until they finish a merit badge.

I wouldn't miss scouting if it went away, I'm sure the church would replace it with additional duty to God activities or something else entirely. The boys can learn a lot of great stuff in scouting, but i think more and more scouting is out of touch with modern society, kids don't relate well to a lot of the subjects. Why learn orienteering when you have GPS on your cell phone?

And then there's the fact that there's no similar program for girls. That's a whole 'nother topic.

[pam]

I didn't force my 2 boys to attend Scouts at all. Frankly after one year of them being in it I was fed up with the whole thing.

I had a huge run in with a Scoutmaster who thought my concern over something as a mother was no big deal. Kind of a big deal when they come home a day early from a week scout trip..and I didn't even know about it. My boys ended up spending the night at one of the other boys. Granted they should have called me..but my beef was the Scout leaders were responsible for getting the boys safely home. No phone call, nothing that they came home a day early.

Plus the cost of Scouting I think is a factor. Especially when you have twin boys and you have to buy double of everything. As a single mom, I didn't have the money to purchase all the required items and for the things they needed for the merit badges. Then throw in a week long scout trip and the long list of "required" items they had to take...

[ChooseTheSun]

I have a Boy Scout and Weebelo, and so far it has been a GREAT experience. Well organized, fun, and lots to do. After his first meeting, my oldest called it the "best first day ever."

I'm a little bummed to read all the negative experiences people have had with LDS scouting. I used to be a girl scout leader, and it is a whole bunch of work. The worst part was when parents would stand on the side lines and critique, yet not offer to help. How can an activity like scouting, which can bring so much joy and pride for our youngsters, be considered so universally dysfunctional?

[pam]

I'm glad your son is having a wonderful experience. That's awesome. I wish we could have had the same. If I had not felt so stressed about the financial part of it all, I might feel differently. We, unfortunately, were assigned to a ward that was very affluent..so they couldn't relate to the fact that I couldn't afford all the things they were doing.

[ChooseTheSun]

Hey Pam

Yes, the financial pressure can be unreal for parents.

Kids used to just gather together to camp, play ball, and simply have fun together for free (or maybe a trade of a baseball card or two). Now there are leagues, registrations, schedules, and fees through the roof. You'd think other parents would understand such things.

It makes my heart go out to all the families who don't show up in the first place because of financial pressures. It's the pits to hear that costs drained the joy out of what could've been a lot of fun for you and your family.

[hordak]

Hey Pam

Yes, the financial pressure can be unreal for parents.

Kids used to just gather together to camp, play ball, and simply have fun together for free (or maybe a trade of a baseball card or two). Now there are leagues, registrations, schedules, and fees through the roof. You'd think other parents would understand such things.

It makes my heart go out to all the families who don't show up in the first place because of financial pressures. It's the pits to hear that costs drained the joy out of what could've been a lot of fun for you and your family.

Yep. They wanted $130 ($100 registration, $30 worth of fundraiser ticket to be sold "by the player" ) for my son to play T-Ball twice a week. In kindergarten

When i was a kid we played sports for free with the neighborhood kids and actual team play

didn't kick in until 10 or 12.

[Backroads]

I'm glad your son is having a wonderful experience. That's awesome. I wish we could have had the same. If I had not felt so stressed about the financial part of it all, I might feel differently. We, unfortunately, were assigned to a ward that was very affluent..so they couldn't relate to the fact that I couldn't afford all the things they were doing.

It really makes me wonder what your ward was doing that made Scouting so expensive! Really, most merit badges are either fairly free or pretty darn cheap to accomplish--I've worked at camp, I know all the tricks. And if your ward was going to people that charge to teach merit badges, well, that's just plain odd. Our council has a list of all the registered merit badge counselors and it's all free.

As for registration, the Church has a fund just for that. We bill local stakes for all their registration fees.

If you're saying the uniform is expensive, well, in my opinion it's no different price than any other clothing you would buy for a child. I also believe that if someone wants to be in Scouting, they will have no problem finding a way to get a full uniform.

Then again, I don't think everyone should be forced to be in Scouting.

[Dravin]

If you're saying the uniform is expensive, well, in my opinion it's no different price than any other clothing you would buy for a child. I also believe that if someone wants to be in Scouting, they will have no problem finding a way to get a full uniform.

Boy Scouts of America Official Catalog - Scoutstuff.org

I do not normally pay that much for things like pants and shirts and I'm an adult who doesn't expect my clothes to need replacing when I grow out of them in a couple years (or less). You'd have to ask Pam if the prices listed are on par with what she paid for non-scouting clothing but they certainly aren't with what I pay for mine.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Dravin

[Backroads]

Boy Scouts of America Official Catalog - Scoutstuff.org

I do not normally pay that much for things like pants and shirts and I'm an adult who doesn't expect my clothes to need replacing when I grow out of them in a couple years (or less). You'd have to ask Pam if the prices listed are on par with what she paid for non-scouting clothing but they certainly aren't with what I pay for mine.

I know plenty of people who do pay that, for clothes the kids grow out and only wear a few times. I mean no offense if it's not in your budget, but does not mean it's okay to alter the Scouting program so you don't have to shell out a few bucks for an appropriate uniform. Over the years the BSA has tried many things to make durable clothes that are affordable.

So you wouldn't pay that much for an outfit crucial to representing something that was important to your son's participation, something he could wear several years if you purchased right, something he would be wearing at least once a week? It is certainly within a budget if the uniform were important to you.

No offense, but this is the kind of behavior toward uniforms that drives me nuts. When I worked in the Scout Shop, I had people complain about the prices even while they were wearing expensive clothes and, I kid you not, driving away in a Rolls Royce. Most people I know have managed to find their Scouting uniforms at thrift stores or from neighbors.

Yet others in LDS Scouting expect the stake to pay for Scouting fees that every other boy in every other unit, yet can't pay for a single thing themselves. Then they dare think they are better than non-LDS troops.

I despise the idea that LDS Scouters cannot be bothered to buy a uniform yet can pay for all sorts of other thigns and want the same respect as other Scouters.

I also fail to understand how that argument about prices of uniforms has anything to do with the affluence of a ward/neighborhood. That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. I have a friend who worked all summer in order to buy himself all that he thought would be necessary for being a Boy Scout: full uniform, hat, books, etc. because it was important to him.

Then Scouters in the Church get upset everytime they have to work for something in Scouting.

Another reason I think it might be best to move Scouting out of the Church if everyone in LDS Scouting wants to tweak everything to fit their wants.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Backroads

[Dravin]

So you wouldn't pay that much for an outfit crucial to representing something that was important to your son's participation, something he could wear several years if you purchased right, something he would be wearing at least once a week? It is certainly within a budget if the uniform were important to you.

I'm not sure if this is a non sequitur or a strawman. Probably more on the non sequitur side of things.

[Wingnut]

My daughter wears clothes and shoes that are too small for her, until she can't wear them anymore, at which point I still only buy clothes under $7 for her. My husband carpools to work because we only have one car. We have a mortgage, huge piles of student loans, and consumer debt leftover from my husband's credit cards before we got married. My husband and I rarely go on dates, and never out to dinner. If I go to the movies with a friend, it's only to a $1 theater. I'm on my sixth consecutive winter in a climate colder than I've ever lived in in my life, and doing it without winter boots, because we can't afford them. I buy primarily generic brands at the grocery store, and eat fast food about once a month.

Right now I don't have a son old enough to be in Scouts, but if I did, you better believe a $45 shirt would be out of my price range.