What if someone taught the gospel this way:

[LDSChristian]

I thought of this last night and how interesting it would be if someone taught the gospel of Jesus Christ this way:

A member of the church goes to college to become a state-recognized preacher since that's what people have to do to become that kind of preacher. Then they go to let's say a baptist church, not becoming a baptist but remaining as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and teach the people the gospel that way. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to teach the gospel to others. That person could use scriptures from the Bible and the Book of Mormon and try to get them to join the church Jesus Christ put on the earth.

It would be M.U.S.T.: Mormon Undercover Spreading Truth. :)

[Soulsearcher]

I thought of this last night and how interesting it would be if someone taught the gospel of Jesus Christ this way:

A member of the church goes to college to become a state-recognized preacher since that's what people have to do to become that kind of preacher. Then they go to let's say a baptist church, not becoming a baptist but remaining as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and teach the people the gospel that way. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to teach the gospel to others. That person could use scriptures from the Bible and the Book of Mormon and try to get them to join the church Jesus Christ put on the earth.

It would be M.U.S.T.: Mormon Undercover Spreading Truth. :)

Using deceit to convert? I'm sure Christ would be proud.

[LDSChristian]

Using deceit to convert? I'm sure Christ would be proud.

Read Genesis chapter 12, chapter 20, Exodus 1:16-20, Exodus 3:17-22, Exodus 14:5-8.

[Soulsearcher]

Read Genesis chapter 12, chapter 20, Exodus 1:16-20, Exodus 3:17-22, Exodus 14:5-8.

As long as you'd support the idea of a catholic priest doing the same in a meeting house. Bishop is actually a Catholic priest preaching catholic doctrine to the ward. If you see no issue with that then I'll accept your premise. I'm just not a fan of the truth using lies to further it's self, kinda takes away from the moral high ground in my eyes.

[LDSChristian]

As long as you'd support the idea of a catholic priest doing the same in a meeting house. Bishop is actually a Catholic priest preaching catholic doctrine to the ward. If you see no issue with that then I'll accept your premise. I'm just not a fan of the truth using lies to further it's self, kinda takes away from the moral high ground in my eyes.

Deception was approved by God in the chapters and verses I gave because of the reason the deception came about. You might want to read them.

[Soulsearcher]

Deception was approved by God in the chapters and verses I gave because of the reason the deception came about. You might want to read them.

Just wanted clarification on exactly what you stand for, i got what i needed.

[LDSChristian]

Just wanted clarification on exactly what you stand for, i got what i needed.

What I stand for is teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone and everyone. By the way, how is what I said deceitful? Teaching a church about the gospel of Jesus Christ, nope, not deceitful.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I thought of this last night and how interesting it would be if someone taught the gospel of Jesus Christ this way:

A member of the church goes to college to become a state-recognized preacher since that's what people have to do to become that kind of preacher. Then they go to let's say a baptist church, not becoming a baptist but remaining as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and teach the people the gospel that way. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to teach the gospel to others. That person could use scriptures from the Bible and the Book of Mormon and try to get them to join the church Jesus Christ put on the earth.

It would be M.U.S.T.: Mormon Undercover Spreading Truth. :)

This reminds me on an interesting story that I once heard from a Missionary. They said somewhere in France (I believe) a Catholic Priest found a unbound Book of Mormon (It didn't have the cover or title page so he didn't know that it was the Book of Mormon) sitting in a public trash can. He thought it was a bible and picked it out of the trash and took it home with him. He read it from front to back and prayed about it as he was invited to in Moroni 10:3-5, he received a testimony from the Holy Ghost that Jesus was the Christ and that the book was the Word of God!

In his parish attendance was very low but he knew that he had to share this great message with his congregation! He started preaching from the book and the congregation was filled with the Spirit. Attendance skyrocketed and the Holy Ghost was felt each Sunday as he taught from this discarded book.

Where the diocese heard of the miraculous turn around in attendance at this one parish they went to investigate. The priest told them about the book he found and how it was the reason for the dramatic attendance increase in the parish. The diocese looked into this book and quickly discovered it was the Book of Mormon.

The forbid the priest from preaching this book ever again and demanded that he destroy it immediately! The brave man refused to destroy the Word of God and insisted that he would preach from this book because it is true.

The Priest was defrocked and excommunicated from the Catholic Church, but kept the book and eventually found out is was the Book of Mormon. From what I was told he is a member to this day.

I heard there was a movie made about this, but I haven't been able to confirm whether if this is a real conversion story or a made up one.

I just though it went along with the Spirit of the conversation.

As far as "undercover preaching" I don't know if that is the proper thing to do. We respect all people's right to worship God as they choose. We know we are the one true Church of Christ but we also show the truth of the Gospel through patience, love, and long suffering.

[NeuroTypical]

Then they go to let's say a baptist church, not becoming a baptist but remaining as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and teach the people the gospel that way.

Actually, we have an occasional poster on this forum who claims a strong testimony of the BoM's truth, yet chooses to remain baptist because he figures God wants him to.

Anyway, from what I know of non-LDS Christian faiths, one does not simply just "go to let's say a baptist church...and teach the people the gospel". Believe it or not, folks in other congregations take an interest in who speaks to them over the podium. When the community church across the road was replacing their pastor, they had a big flowchart outlining the church's steps in selecting a new pastor. Lots of committee interviews, guest pastor appearances, member voting, etc.

Looks like another grand slam idea goes back to the drawing board, LDSChristian...

[Dravin]

Deception was approved by God in the chapters and verses I gave because of the reason the deception came about. You might want to read them.

Genesis 12 and 20 - Abraham was deceptive about his relationship with his wife for fear they would kill him and take his wife.

I'm sure Soul wouldn't have much objection to someone lying because they fear telling the truth is going to cause someone to kill him and take his wife.

Exodus 1:16-20 - They were being commanded by Pharaoh to commit infanticide, they ignored the order and were deceptive about defying Pharaoh.

Something tells me Soul would have no problem with a Mormon in WW2 Germany lying to the Gestapo about the Jews in his basement.

Exodus 3:17-22 - The Jews ask for permission to go offer sacrifices with the idea of making a run for the border.

I'm sure Soul would have no objection to an enslaved Mormon lying to his master to try to escape to Canada.

That said you don't answer the question. Do you feel a Catholic Priest would be justified in doing something similar? A Catholic Priest believes in the same scriptures you are referencing.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

What I stand for is teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone and everyone. By the way, how is what I said deceitful? Teaching a church about the gospel of Jesus Christ, nope, not deceitful.

I don't think it is deceitful but it is disrespectful of there right to worship God according to there conscience. This is not an act of patience, love, and long-suffering so you would not be able to preach the Gospel since the Spirit only works through the righteous, and this is not a righteous or reverent action.

Such actions could damage long friendships the Church has held with other faiths and damage our outreach that is done with other Christan denominations. I am 100% confident that such an approach would be flat out rejected by the First Presidency (if it even got that far, most likely it wouldn't even get past the Ward Bishop) and if you actually tried to go through with it you would be risking being disfellowshipped.

A well intended idea, but not an appropriate one, your best course of action is to persuade them to attend and LDS meeting on Sunday!

[Soulsearcher]

Being undercover is disguising one's own identity or using an assumed identity for the purposes of gaining the trust of an individual or organization to learn secret information or to gain the trust of targeted individuals in order to gain information or evidence.

To me at least lying about who you are in any way is being deceitful. If he goes in saying he'll be a baptist minister and he's not that is deceit. If he portrays himself as something he has no intention of being to a congregation to me that is deceit.

LOL and Dravin of course I'd have no problem with those lies, I'm a heathen i love all lies don't you know

[pam]

I'm actually with a comment that LDS_Guy made. Our own article of faith #11 states we allow all men to worship how where and what they may.

I would consider it to be not a good deceptive ploy.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Genesis 12 and 20 - Abraham was deceptive about his relationship with his wife for fear they would kill him and take his wife.

I'm sure Soul wouldn't have much objection to someone lying because they fear telling the truth is going to cause someone to kill him and take his wife.

Exodus 1:16-20 - They were being commanded by Pharaoh to commit infanticide, they ignored the order and were deceptive about defying Pharaoh.

Something tells me Soul would have no problem with a Mormon in WW2 Germany lying to the Gestapo about the Jews in his basement.

Exodus 3:17-22 - The Jews ask for permission to go offer sacrifices with the idea of making a run for the border.

I'm sure Soul would have no objection to an enslaved Mormon lying to his master to try to escape to Canada.

That said you don't answer the question. Do you feel a Catholic Priest would be justified in doing something similar? A Catholic Priest believes in the same scriptures you are referencing.

Also not that these are all situations where someone's life is at risk of imminent death. In a situation like this deception is not evil or wrong.

Also not that in all these cases these are not flat out lies but selective lying or lying by withholding the whole truth.

Sarah was Abraham's half sister, the midwives didn't tell Pharaoh that the reason why the Hebrews hid there babies is because the midwives fore warned them, and Moses was told to go sacrifice, then run. Moses was telling the truth they sought to travel three days to go make sacrifices to God, he just left out that after they sacrificed to God they were going to B line it to Canaan!

[pam]

One of the great things about our church is there are never any degrading comments made from a pulpit about other religions. Very much unlike other religions in regards to ours.

It would just be sinking to newer lows to go into another church, that doesn't believe everything we believe or at least in the same way, and sneekily teach them our beliefs.

[Dravin]

Edit: Got LDSChristian and LDS_Guy confused. Edited January 30, 2011 by Dravin

[hordak]

Just to add teaching them BoM doctrine wouldn't make them Mormon (as in LDS Church headed by Thomas Monson)

There are other church who believe in the BoM, i've even heard about a baptist minister who believe in it.

Baptist Preacher Believes in Book of Mormon Grace for Grace

Doesn't make him/ them LDS

[beefche]

I thought of this last night and how interesting it would be if someone taught the gospel of Jesus Christ this way:

A member of the church goes to college to become a state-recognized preacher since that's what people have to do to become that kind of preacher. Then they go to let's say a baptist church, not becoming a baptist but remaining as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and teach the people the gospel that way. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to teach the gospel to others. That person could use scriptures from the Bible and the Book of Mormon and try to get them to join the church Jesus Christ put on the earth.

It would be M.U.S.T.: Mormon Undercover Spreading Truth. :)

Umm...wow. Just wow.

Being deceitful isn't against any commandment?

AoF

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

How about temple recommend questions?

Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

Perhaps I should take a medical terminology class, then pose as a doctor to get people to listen to my remedies. After all, they work for me--I'm healthy. Surely other people would like my level of health and won't mind me posing as something I'm not to get them there.

And you still haven't answered the question posed to you previously: would you be agreeable to having a Catholic priest pose as a bishop to gather more to his flock?

[Wingnut]

Say it happened. Say it works. Say an undercover LDS person manages to spiritually convert an entire congregation of Baptists. How does the big reveal happen?

"HaHA! You've all been duped!" ???

Do you really think that a large group of people who suddenly realize they've been deceived by a very skilled con-man are suddenly going to follow him into the unknown?

one does not simply just "go to let's say a baptist church...and teach the people the gospel".

One does not simply walk into Mordor?

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

The big thing here is that deception is not a conversion tool. We are told to preach with patience, love, and long suffering.

Deception is what Satan uses to convert the hearts of men and remember that nothing of God can be done by wicked means.

To preach in deception is to do the work of the Deceiver not of Christ.

Also this would definitely hurt the Church's image and effect our interdenominational relief effort around the world.

[Soulsearcher]

The big thing here is that deception is not a conversion tool. We are told to preach with patience, love, and long suffering.

Deception is what Satan uses to convert the hearts of men and remember that nothing of God can be done by wicked means.

To preach in deception is to do the work of the Deceiver not of Christ.

Also this would definitely hurt the Church's image and effect our interdenominational relief effort around the world.

Bingo

[LDSChristian]

I don't think it is deceitful but it is disrespectful of there right to worship God according to there conscience. This is not an act of patience, love, and long-suffering so you would not be able to preach the Gospel since the Spirit only works through the righteous, and this is not a righteous or reverent action.

Such actions could damage long friendships the Church has held with other faiths and damage our outreach that is done with other Christan denominations. I am 100% confident that such an approach would be flat out rejected by the First Presidency (if it even got that far, most likely it wouldn't even get past the Ward Bishop) and if you actually tried to go through with it you would be risking being disfellowshipped.

A well intended idea, but not an appropriate one, your best course of action is to persuade them to attend and LDS meeting on Sunday!

It's not really deceptive because you wouldn't be lying. You'd be a preacher technically because you'd be teaching about the gospel of Jesus Christ. At least you see the reason behind it but I don't really see how it's deception. You'd be teaching the truth right?

Edited January 30, 2011 by LDSChristian

[NeuroTypical]

Maybe we're just not getting your big picture. Exactly how do you propose to have a mormon walk into a baptist church and gain access to the podium and an audience?

As far as I can tell, it would work kind of like this:

Baptist: Hi, thanks for applying for the pastor position. Your resume was a bit vague about the churches you've preached at. Can you fill us in?

You: I'm an ordained Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of La-

Baptist: Oh, sorry - we're only interviewing for baptists. Thanks for your time.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

It's not really deceptive because you wouldn't be lying. You'd be a preacher technically because you'd be teaching about the gospel of Jesus Christ. At least you see the reason behind it but I don't really see how it's deception. You'd be teaching the truth right?

See the only way you could preach in those churches is though lying and saying that you are a baptist, methodist, ect.

So the only way to be in the position is through deception which is reverent so the spirit will not be with you and you will not be able to preach the Gospel.

Also beyond the moral implications you still would have to reconcile with the fact that to do this is a blantant violation of our 11th Article of Faith. You would have to go against the scripture to execute your plan.

It doesn't seem like a wise plan to me personally.

A for effort though!

[JThimm88]

I just know that had that been the way the Church was introduced to me and I converted under those pretenses, if I found out that was what happened, I'd leave as I would have felt it was deceptive. I wouldn't want to have any part in a church that pretended to be something it wasn't, I guess.