Attaining God-hood

[Alyosha]

I was LDS until I went to college, now I am just plain christian and I have been investigating numerous churches. I am led back to the LDS faith at times to compare and contrast. The idea that we are to become perfect like God isn't unique to the LDS faith, btw. But anyway, I read in Gospel Principles a while back that the way our Heavenly Father became God was through a gradual process. That he came to an earth "like Jesus Christ did" to get a body, and afterwords, once attaining God-hood, he begot each and every one of us in the pre-earth life in heaven. I have also read that intelligences can't be made or destroyed, that they have no beginning or end, and that we all existed as intelligences prior to being begotten as spirit children of God the Father. I noticed the newer Gospel Principles manual doesn't talk about us having existed as intelligences prior to being begotten as spirit children of God. Is this something that has to remain a mystery? Or should we trust that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about when he said that. Do I have all this correct?

Also, why isn't the idea that God is an exalted man included in the Standard Works? Is it because the LDS don't actually accept that notion? That would seem strange, since the Gospel Principles manual is fairly clear when it said "This is how our Heavenly Father became God." Are official church publications to be trusted? I guess when it comes down to it you must trust the Holy Spirit.

I don't know how to do a poll, but if you are LDS please say whether or not you believe God the Father was at one point an intelligence, then a spirit son of a God, then he got a body of flesh and bones, then he was exalted and begot us.

[JudoMinja]

The exact nature of God's past is still a mystery. That information has not yet been revealed. The statement you offered is as in-depth as such revelation gets. Anything further, is speculation.

I do not know if I would call God an "exalted man". Even if he had to go through a similar process to receive a physical body, that does not necessarily make him an "exalted man". Here is my own personal take on the matter- not doctrinal mind you but my educated opinion.

Intelligence is the only matter that has been and ever will be from beginning to end. Intelligence is the source of all creation. Intelligence is the source of spiritual and physical creation, all things having some manner and degree of intelligence. God is the collective organization of ALL intelligence. In a sense, this puts God more along the lines of a disembodied force- in and through everything- supported more by eastern religions such as Buddhism. However, this is not all that God is. God does have a physical body, as we do, but had to obtain that body in a manner similar to how we have attained our bodies. His body is the vessel for His collective intelligence, but because He is ALL intelligence He can be found in and through everything.

God knows all because he is all. We are a "part" of God yet seperate. Each of us existed as disembodied intelligence before God formed that intelligence into a spiritual entity- our spiritual birth. We were then able to grow in our own intelligence to a point, but further growth was not possible without the attainment of a physical vessel to contain and shape that intelligence as God was. "As God was, man now is. As God is, man may be." We are capable of gaining all that God has because intelligence is not like physical matter. When physical matter is divided, each piece is smaller than the whole. However, when intelligence is divided or shared, nothing is lost from the original source. God is the source. He is the beginning and the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

We will always be different from God in the sense that we cannot be that source. However, we can become our own sources of further spiritual and physical creations, should we build in intelligence enough to receive that glory or knowledge. In that sense, God will always be "the one true God", but we can become lesser God's to His greater, having the same knowledge, the same intelligence, and the same purpose but always worshipping the source of our own creation.

[Alyosha]

The exact nature of God's past is still a mystery. That information has not yet been revealed. The statement you offered is as in-depth as such revelation gets. Anything further, is speculation.

I do not know if I would call God an "exalted man". Even if he had to go through a similar process to receive a physical body, that does not necessarily make him an "exalted man". Here is my own personal take on the matter- not doctrinal mind you but my educated opinion.

Intelligence is the only matter that has been and ever will be from beginning to end. Intelligence is the source of all creation. Intelligence is the source of spiritual and physical creation, all things having some manner and degree of intelligence. God is the collective organization of ALL intelligence. In a sense, this puts God more along the lines of a disembodied force- in and through everything- supported more by eastern religions such as Buddhism. However, this is not all that God is. God does have a physical body, as we do, but had to obtain that body in a manner similar to how we have attained our bodies. His body is the vessel for His collective intelligence, but because He is ALL intelligence He can be found in and through everything.

God knows all because he is all. We are a "part" of God yet seperate. Each of us existed as disembodied intelligence before God formed that intelligence into a spiritual entity- our spiritual birth. We were then able to grow in our own intelligence to a point, but further growth was not possible without the attainment of a physical vessel to contain and shape that intelligence as God was. "As God was, man now is. As God is, man may be." We are capable of gaining all that God has because intelligence is not like physical matter. When physical matter is divided, each piece is smaller than the whole. However, when intelligence is divided or shared, nothing is lost from the original source. God is the source. He is the beginning and the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

We will always be different from God in the sense that we cannot be that source. However, we can become our own sources of further spiritual and physical creations, should we build in intelligence enough to receive that glory or knowledge. In that sense, God will always be "the one true God", but we can become lesser God's to His greater, having the same knowledge, the same intelligence, and the same purpose but always worshipping the source of our own creation.

Can you say anything about the infinite regress of Gods begetting Gods? My LDS friend thinks that there is an infinite regress, but we don't need to worry about the ones that begot God the Father, since "He is the only God to us."

[Blackmarch]

I was LDS until I went to college, now I am just plain christian and I have been investigating numerous churches. I am led back to the LDS faith at times to compare and contrast. The idea that we are to become perfect like God isn't unique to the LDS faith, btw. But anyway, I read in Gospel Principles a while back that the way our Heavenly Father became God was through a gradual process. That he came to an earth "like Jesus Christ did" to get a body, and afterwords, once attaining God-hood, he begot each and every one of us in the pre-earth life in heaven. I have also read that intelligences can't be made or destroyed, that they have no beginning or end, and that we all existed as intelligences prior to being begotten as spirit children of God the Father. I noticed the newer Gospel Principles manual doesn't talk about us having existed as intelligences prior to being begotten as spirit children of God. Is this something that has to remain a mystery? Or should we trust that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about when he said that. Do I have all this correct?

Also, why isn't the idea that God is an exalted man included in the Standard Works? Is it because the LDS don't actually accept that notion? That would seem strange, since the Gospel Principles manual is fairly clear when it said "This is how our Heavenly Father became God." Are official church publications to be trusted? I guess when it comes down to it you must trust the Holy Spirit.

I don't know how to do a poll, but if you are LDS please say whether or not you believe God the Father was at one point an intelligence, then a spirit son of a God, then he got a body of flesh and bones, then he was exalted and begot us.

I would hope that the idea of deification does not solely rest in the LDS faith-

I find it more in the bible than I do the book of mormon; Christ is the Son of Man, don't know how you could more plainly state it than that.... Us being commanded to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect, When christ comes again we will see That we will be like CHrist who is like the Father, Being made in his (God's) image, Being sat upon the throne of heaven, even the same throne that Christ sits upon...

Unfortunately it seems to be winding down to only the LDS that are keeping that torch lit. that or i just have the luck into running into all the folks that disbelieve that concept. (Bar LDS)

Edited March 4, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Blackmarch]

Can you say anything about the infinite regress of Gods begetting Gods? My LDS friend thinks that there is an infinite regress, but we don't need to worry about the ones that begot God the Father, since "He is the only God to us."

It is only logic and perhaps personal revelation that leads one to conclude an infinite progressions of gods, there is not a revelation that is given to the church as a whole in regards to that. Either there is, or there is not, but either way it does not matter, whether there are many gods or not, for us there is only one. Edited March 4, 2011 by Blackmarch

[JudoMinja]

It is only logic and perhaps personal revelation that leads one to conclude an infinite progressions of gods, there is not a revelation that is given to the church as a whole in regards to that. Either there is, or there is not, but either way it does not matter, whether or there are many gods or not, for us there is only one.

Couldn't have put it better than that.

[Alyosha]

I feel kind of bad for asking this, as it might shake someones faith in Jesus Christ, but here it goes: in light of what has been written in this thread, what are we to make of the scriptures that state "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." and "Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?"

Also, for other forms of Christianity that lead to deification, there is the Eastern Orthodox Church (second largest church of christianity; the Roman Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox church used to be the same church until about 1000 AD when the pope excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox priests and then the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs excommunicated the pope and those who submit to the doctrines of the church lead by the pope), though I am still analysing it to see if it is actually "orthodox."

I hope no one thinks I'm am proselytizing. Some of you seemed ignorant of the practice of becoming perfect in churches other than the LDS church. I would recommend following your heart. For different people this will mean different things. Some people's deepest desire is to be against God, sad as this might sound, I have met people who know God, yet curse Him, and the are lost, but it is their choice, and the one thing that we can all agree on is that God let's us choose whether or not we want to be with Him. For others, the exact opposite is true. Remember the words of the first apostles? God would rather we be hot or cold, not luke warm.

Anyway, I like that the LDS church emphasizes becoming perfect.

God bless.

[JudoMinja]

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." and "Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?"

I do not see how these statements negate anything said here. Jesus Christ is much like we are- a spiritual child of God, yet He was also the only one to have been begotten in the flesh by God- the "Only Begotten". Jesus Christ was the First Born of God, and it was through God's direction that Jesus Christ created the earth. For further information on this explanation of the creation, you can check the Pearl of Great Price. Jesus Christ is our Savior and a part of the Godhead, so we worship Him as we worship God.

The explanation I gave in my first post here, in essense, describes the Godhead more than it does God "the Father". God the Father is the embodiment of all knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence. Jesus Christ is the creator of the world, our Savior and Redeemer, and the one who became "even as man". The Holy Ghost is the presence found in and through everyone and everything, through whom we can receive comfort and guidance. All together, these make the Godhead and a unified presence in spirit and purpose. We can become a part of that as we align our "intelligence"with His.

Really, your excerpts seem, at least to me, to support this. Not refute it.

[Blackmarch]

I feel kind of bad for asking this, as it might shake someones faith in Jesus Christ, but here it goes: in light of what has been written in this thread, what are we to make of the scriptures that state "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." and "Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?"

It's not shakeable to me-if we are to become perfect as he is then we also need to become unchangeable from eternity to eternity.

Nor do we understand how time unfolds, or what is considered, or how God is able to interact with our universe

to me the first statement is in regards to his nature, and which interestingly doesnt have much other than mentioning eternity (which has other meanings) to indicate the past, whereas the second statement which talks about his existance, does directly address time- if you want to go with a literal reading.

Also, for other forms of Christianity that lead to deification, there is the Eastern Orthodox Church (second largest church of christianity; the Roman Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox church used to be the same church until about 1000 AD when the pope excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox priests and then the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs excommunicated the pope and those who submit to the doctrines of the church lead by the pope), though I am still analysing it to see if it is actually "orthodox."

I hope no one thinks I'm am proselytizing. Some of you seemed ignorant of the practice of becoming perfect in churches other than the LDS church. I would recommend following your heart. For different people this will mean different things. Some people's deepest desire is to be against God, sad as this might sound, I have met people who know God, yet curse Him, and the are lost, but it is their choice, and the one thing that we can all agree on is that God let's us choose whether or not we want to be with Him. For others, the exact opposite is true. Remember the words of the first apostles? God would rather we be hot or cold, not luke warm.

Anyway, I like that the LDS church emphasizes becoming perfect.

God bless.

[Alyosha]

In relation to what has been said about what is meant by eternity, I must ask: how final is final judgement? Is it final for eternity? Once upon a time while I was reading D&C I got a sense that damnation is really just indefinite damnation, in the sense that sometime in the infinite future, one may be able to go from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom. Or that Satan and his followers might just get bored and realize the futility of their existence of hatred and God might have mercy on them. I don't know. I know this is way out there. Any scriptures to reference would be much appreciated. But do you see where I'm coming from? When what is meant by eternity isn't really clear, then one has doubts about things like finality.

[Just_A_Guy]

It's not shakeable to me-if we are to become perfect as he is then we also need to become unchangeable from eternity to eternity.

I like this. Just because something's unchangeable now, doesn't mean it was always thus. The fact that I cannot turn bread back into dough, does not mean that the bread never was dough.

I would also note that it isn't just the Mormons whose theology contradicts the idea of an eternally unchanging God. Anyone who believes God left His Heaven, came to earth as a man, and then left that mortal form to return to Heaven as His usual disembodied Self, faces the same conundrum.

In relation to what has been said about what is meant by eternity, I must ask: how final is final judgement? Is it final for eternity? Once upon a time while I was reading D&C I got a sense that damnation is really just indefinite damnation, in the sense that sometime in the infinite future, one may be able to go from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom. Or that Satan and his followers might just get bored and realize the futility of their existence of hatred and God might have mercy on them. I don't know. I know this is way out there. Any scriptures to reference would be much appreciated. But do you see where I'm coming from? When what is meant by eternity isn't really clear, then one has doubts about things like finality.

We really don't know. I understand different Church leaders have embraced different ideas at different times.

Also, why isn't the idea that God is an exalted man included in the Standard Works?

There is a lot that isn't openly taught in the Standard Works. It isn't that we reject anything that's absent from the canon; it's just that we look with suspicion on anything that irreconcilably contradicts the canon.

[jayanna]

One thing that is different about our church is the use of modern day revelation and the continued scriptures. The standard works are not all of our scriptures. I would suggest that you search some of our modern scriptures about it, and then pray and ask if it is true, with an honest heart, wanting to know the truth of these things.

I believe you will find your answers about the final, yes, final judgement in the Gospel Principles book. There is a unit about life after death, judgement, and the kingdoms.

[AGStacker]

I don't know how to do a poll, but if you are LDS please say whether or not you believe God the Father was at one point an intelligence, then a spirit son of a God, then he got a body of flesh and bones, then he was exalted and begot us.

I believe He was once an intelligence although I believe exaltation can be different for... well let me explain. For example, babies who die before the age of eight we know live will be with Heavenly Father. Think about this. In the Millennium they will be raised without any sin. This is pretty crazy. Remember the Book of Mormon or scriptures are for US upon this Earth. These babies who die may be very far advanced above say you and I and exaltation may be different for them. It is often said that people who are born with down syndrome are essentially guaranteed their exaltation. Now, I don't know an official who has stated this but I do not doubt it but also remember these individuals must choose, of course, to accept Heavenly Father's plan. Why wouldn't they?

You pose a question I think about often. Will we have to go through what Christ went through? Meaning will we play the role of Christ or maybe even Adam and Eve for the ladies.

If you are not certain which Church to join or attend I suppose I may be able to help. Look at the economic situation around you. To be blunt, it is dire. Many nonLDS Christians think purely that God will provide in times of disaster but the scriptures prove that this isn't so. Some LDS also believe this. The Church is one of the most fine tuned machines in terms of NO DEBT and A LOT of commodities. In case you don't know what commodities are they are rice, wheat, silver etc. The Church has so much food to help saints, disaster ridden folks and the poor. This wheat in our current economic situation will be worth money you wouldn't believe. Now I am not trying to say a good investment means a true Church. Not by any means. What I am saying is while the world got bent buying stuff, consumer products that have no real use, the Church has been storing food for decades and probably a century. We are approaching a world of very high food prices because of the corrupt evilness of central banking. The Church has known this and has been able to maintain a financial house of order because its top members are led directly by God. It isn't possible for the Church to have s much foresight without God's inspiration. Maybe you don't understand our economic situation right now but you will understand what I mean more fully within a few years.

Sorry to have side tracked. Good luck to you!

[Alyosha]

You made a good point about the LDS welfare system (my dad used to work in the agricultrual management department of the church, so I got to see this kind of stuff first hand, truly it is amazing). To me though, if I die of starvation I wouldn't mind, the pains of this life are really nothing to worry about considering staying alive longer won't necessarily affect my salvation. I can see how it might affect a weaker person's salvation though, since some people are wont to curse God when they suffer. I see suffering as a way to get closer to God, since Jesus Christ suffered to an incomprehensible extent. I don't advocate seeking ways to suffer though, lol. Like one time I read about these monks who wanted to be martyrs so much that they asked pagans to kill them. One guy said to them "okay, but let me tie you up first." "Okay," the monks said. The pagan then proceeded to beat them with a club and then left them to struggle out of the cords.

Oh, here's another thing the LDS here could help me with to understand their faith: perhaps I'm special in this regard, but I get what the LDS consider to be feelings of the Holy Ghost about some pretty strange things at times. For example, if I used the feelings to ascertain the truth of something, then I would have to believe that the human race was not created by God, but by some vagante aliens from a planet in our solar system that isn't even considered to exist by modern astronomers. So, basically, when I am investigating the different sects, I try to find the ones that are most consistent. This doesn't bode well for the churches that I have investigated so far, especially any protestant, roman catholic, restorationists, fundamentalists, universalists... well, basically every church I have been to. There is a church though that can trace it's lineage back to the 12 apostles, has an open canon, only accepts scripture as far as it is translated correctly, believes in continuing public revelation, and doesn't admit to having one infallible leader who God will kill before he could ever lead the faithful astray. I won't say what church this is, since I'm not sure of the policy here about proselytizing. Granted, said church has some strange customs that would appear heretical to many. Perhaps I have said too much... well, nevermind. You get an idea of my current perspective. This should help you help me if anyone wishes to post something to address what I am concerned with. Mostly, I'd like to hear about how to discern what comes from God. What comes from Satan, and what comes from man. Perhaps there is a thread some of you know about on this topic. I do know quite a lot though about things like "heart on fire," "swelling in the chest," "being struck by lightning," and the comforts such as peace, love and understanding. Then of coure there's the problem of pictures and situations that can be interpreted in two distinct ways, but without the ability to read minds, which interpretation is correct is illusive. So what do you all think? Are these good questions?

[Just_A_Guy]

This article may begin to address some of your questions from an LDS standpoint. Basically, our position is that man communes with God through two channels: through direct revelation from the Holy Ghost, and through divinely appointed messengers. To put it crudely: each channel of communication can serve as a check and balance against any excesses/misinterpretations coming through the other channel.

[bytebear]

I think the biggest difference between LDS belief and other Christians, is that we simply don't condemn speculation on such deep and mysterious discussions as heresy. What does it mean to "be one with God?" what does it mean to inherit all that He has? What does it mean that we may be perfected?

I believe God is one, but that God is at least three persons: Father, Son, Holy Ghost . I believe God is from eternity to eternity, and that God is expanding and progressing as more persons enter into perfection. Was there a time that Heavenly Father was not creating worlds? Was there a time when He could have fallen from Godhood? Can he fall now? Deep questions. Mormonism considers more answers without condemnation. Other Christians condemn even asking, let alone coming up with answers.

[Alyosha]

I think the biggest difference between LDS belief and other Christians, is that we simply don't condemn speculation on such deep and mysterious discussions as heresy. What does it mean to "be one with God?" what does it mean to inherit all that He has? What does it mean that we may be perfected?

I believe God is one, but that God is at least three persons: Father, Son, Holy Ghost . I believe God is from eternity to eternity, and that God is expanding and progressing as more persons enter into perfection. Was there a time that Heavenly Father was not creating worlds? Was there a time when He could have fallen from Godhood? Can he fall now? Deep questions. Mormonism considers more answers without condemnation. Other Christians condemn even asking, let alone coming up with answers.

You obviously haven't looked into very many christian faiths. lol No offense. That or you just go by what some of their members tell you. Perhaps speculation is just prohibited at church and seminary for LDS? That's how it was for me when I grew up in the church in Utah and Idaho. They recommend only accepting what the Holy Spirit reveals. So I guess as long as you can tell the difference between your mind speculating and the still small voice, then it's probably fine.

[bytebear]

You obviously haven't looked into very many christian faiths. lol No offense. That or you just go by what some of their members tell you. Perhaps speculation is just prohibited at church and seminary for LDS? That's how it was for me when I grew up in the church in Utah and Idaho. They recommend only accepting what the Holy Spirit reveals. So I guess as long as you can tell the difference between your mind speculating and the still small voice, then it's probably fine.

Perhaps I am generalizing, and perhaps I am thinking of specific Christian denominations, but there is the general idea that if you question certain tenants then you are a heretic. Certainly that is true of the Trinity (which has precluded Mormons from being part of the "body of Christ"), and for some the concept of faith vs. works. It even goes to ideas on scientific concepts like evolution, or going back several hundred years, the position of Earth in the Universe. Several scientists were reprimanded for that, as you recall. No, I think my statements are fair.

But this church differentiates between doctrine and interpretation and speculation. Joseph Smith revealed that the Father has a body of flesh and bone. That is doctrine. How the Father came to a state of having a body is speculation, and there is a general line of teaching on the topic, but none are official and none are canonized.

As a kid living in Utah, I recall many folk doctrines that were taught as foundational truths, so I can see where you are coming from there. But as I grew up and moved out of the state, I realized there are more interpretations than one, and that Utah/Idaho has a certain cultural doctrine that is not necessarily scriptural. Another thing I noticed was that although I learned many concepts from seminary teachers, Sunday school teachers, and various books written by General Authorities, they are not all necessarily true doctrine.

When Bruce R. McConkie first published Mormon Doctrine, he was told by the prophet that several parts of the book were speculative and should not be considered true doctrine. He changed several things, and even more things were changed or removed in later editions. This book is not scripture and not "Mormon Doctrine". The book Jesus The Christ, on the other hand, was written by James E. Talmage at the direction of the prophet, and a special room was given for the purpose of writing the book. It is the closest to any non-canonized book to be considered scripture.

Also, as the church grows and spreads its roots beyond the Wasatch Front, two things are happening. First, many more members are now first generation Mormons, and second, the come from diverse and varying cultural backgrounds. Now Utah Mormonism is the exception and many of the folk doctrines we grew up with are falling by the wayside.

Now, that does not dismiss the King Follett discourse as false, but it does mean we will have new interpretations of it, and it also means that as time goes by, it becomes less important to living amongst the Saints, because teaching such deep doctrines to a few thousand dedicated saints is far different than trying to explain such things to millions of members who still are struggling with an understanding of basic tenants of the gospel.

In fact, if it weren't for Utah folk doctrine combined with a plastering of anti-Mormon rhetoric which tells only a small portion of what Joseph Smith touched on in that sermon, the concept would be far less controversial. Unfortunately, we gravitate toward the differences and the controversial, and not the similarities and the mundane. So, of all the concepts of who and what God is, both Mormon and non-Mormon will look at what the LDS church has to say on the subject and pick out and magnify to the point of distortion that which is most unfamiliar. But it goes far deeper than that to truly understand the nature of God, and I believe one must have the spirit to guide them in gaining such knowledge.

One thing I find absolutely fascinating about Joseph Smith's sermon on the subject is that he didn't reveal it as a prophet but reasoned it from Scripture. Here are a few quotes from the speech:

Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

...

God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible

[COMMENT: Speculation as to why and how and all that is where we get into Mormon folk doctrine, and some very deep concepts on the nature of God - or rather specifically the progression of God the Father, since God and the Father are not necessarily used in the same context.]

...

Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.

....

I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here, that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.

[COMMENT: Note how Smith talks about heresy saying that men would cry treason if he did not show it from the Bible.]

...

I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible

...

The doctors (I mean doctors of law, no physic) say, "If you preach anything not according to the Bible, we will cry treason."

[COMMENT: Again more discourse on how the Christians cry heresy on concepts outside their beliefs.]

The point here is that Joseph Smith was not giving a revelation, but rather giving an understanding, probably based on prophetic knowledge where he put two and two together, and came up with a concept foreign to (and heretical to) Christianity. And, he used the Bible to prove his case. But, this concept is still not canonized, at least not explicitly. It is more a logical conclusion, than anything else.

Sorry for the long winded response.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bytebear

[Gramajane]

Maybe a few definitions need to be made about "unchangeable"?

-- if you become greater, are you then unchangeable?

Or is it that they are talking about that God will not change his nature and become evil?

(my vote is on the latter)

Also in the bible it says "ye are gods..."

Jesus is the firstborn of SPIRITS-

AND THE ONLY BEGOTTEN IN THE FLESH

while in many places the Bible tells us, even in Jesus words that God is our Father too. :) (to Mary after his resurrection specifically)

[Gramajane]

here is a copy paste from the topical guide to the scriptures in the LDS edition of King James Bible

Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father

see also Man, Antemortal Existence of; Spirit Body; Worth of Souls.

* God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22

* Ye are the children of the Lord your God, Deut. 14:1

* there is a spirit in man, Job 32:8

* breath of the Almighty hath given me life, Job 33:4

* Ye are gods … children of the most High, Ps. 82:6

* the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

* he that giveth breath … and spirit to them that walk, Isa. 42:5

* Ye are the sons of the living God, Hosea 1:10

* Have we not all one father, Mal. 2:10

* Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:40).

* Our Father which art in heaven, Matt. 6:9 (3 Ne. 13:9).

* we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29

* Spirit itself beareth witness … we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16

* One God and Father of all, Eph. 4:6

* be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9

* he hath created his children, 1 Ne. 17:36

* spirits … taken home to that God who gave them life, Alma 40:11

* from God, for the benefit of the children of God, D&C 46:26

* inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God, D&C 76:24

* spirit of man in the likeness of his person, D&C 77:2

* your Father, who is in heaven, knoweth, D&C 84:83

* spirit and the body are the soul of man, D&C 88:15

* I may testify unto your Father, and your God, D&C 88:75

* man is spirit, D&C 93:33

* God, had created all the children of men, Moses 3:5

* I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6:51

* intelligences that were organized before the world, Abr. 3:22

See also Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; Eph. 3:14–15; Eph. 5:1.

[Gramajane]

I think the answer you are looking for is in the doctrine and Cov.

I will copy paste it here for those who don't have easy access?

-- please excuse what looks like "type errors" as they are what in the print are SMALLER a, b, c etc to indicate footnotes. -- still the message should come across. :)

Section 19

Revelation given through Joseph Smith, at Manchester, New York, March 1830 (see History of the Church, 1:72–74). In his history, the Prophet introduced it as “a commandment of God and not of man, to Martin Harris, given by him who is Eternal” (History of the Church, 1:72).

1–3, Christ has all power; 4–5, All men must repent or suffer; 6–12, Eternal punishment is God’s punishment; 13–20, Christ suffered for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 21–28, Preach the gospel of repentance; 29–41, Declare glad tidings.

1I am aAlpha and Omega, bChrist the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the cworld.

2I, having accomplished and afinished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might bsubdue all things unto myself—

3Retaining all apower, even to the bdestroying of Satan and his works at the cend of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, djudging every man according to his eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4And surely every man must arepent or bsuffer, for I, God, am cendless.

5Wherefore, I arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my cleft hand.

6Nevertheless, it is anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written bendless ctorment.

7Again, it is written aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8Wherefore, I will explain unto you this amystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my arest.

10For, behold, the amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless cpunishment, for dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent;

17But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

18Which asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

20Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I ahumble you with my almighty power; and that you bconfess your sins, lest you suffer these cpunishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have dtasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

[pam]

Everyone has easy access. They can just go to lds.org.

[Dravin]

-- please excuse what looks like "type errors" as they are what in the print are SMALLER a, b, c etc to indicate footnotes. -- still the message should come across.

There is a link to hide the foot notes, very handy when quoting scriptures. It's on the right hand side of the screen underneath the scripture search bar.