the morality of paying tithing before paying debts

[bcguy]

Today, I did a small auto repair job and was paid in cash. I was going to make a deposit to my business account, take out 20% for taxes, then the rest I can do what ever with.

My wife on the other hand, wanted me to pay tithing first out of the cash, then deposit it.

We got into a big verbal argument about this and she set a suitcase next to me, saying good buy, leave don't come back. I told her, this is ridiculous, I said it is federal law you declare everything you make, and that means depositing FIRST to show what your gross income was by way of bank statements. Anyway, she ripped into me about a whole slew of things that just went on and on and on.

I want to do the right thing, and the right thing is deposit first, take taxes out. The real problem is this, I owe back payments on credit cards. It has been a really slow time for the past few months. Should I pay my tithing, and not pay my credit collectors and continue to ruin my credit, or pay my tithing.

The moral thing tells me to pay creditors FIRST, then pay what ever left for church. I am running really short this time of year. Really difficult for me and us. Economy though, is improving.

Thanks!

[Dravin]

I'm not seeing how depositing first and then taking out 10% (gross or net as is one's wont) is different then taking the amount out first (from the Lord's perspective). That said my advice is to take it to the Lord, counsel with him. Explain that you feel paying the debt owed comes first and see how he responds.

50 people can come into the thread and tell you to pay first. 50 can come into the thread and tell you to tithe first. Neither happening is going to eliminate the conflict/dilemma you are faced with.

Edit: Looks like I may not have a full understanding of tax law.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Dravin

[skippy740]

Well, the first dilemna is about proper accounting practices.

All funds paid to a business MUST be deposited to that business account FIRST. Ask any accountant.

THEN you do what you need to do.

(BTW, isn't your biggest creditor the Lord? He gives us 100% of what we have and our ability to earn a living. Just a thought.)

If it's worth worrying about... it's worth praying about.

Edited March 6, 2011 by skippy740

[NeuroTypical]

We got into a big verbal argument about this and she set a suitcase next to me, saying good buy, leave don't come back.

It seems like your problems are a big more serioius than whether to pay tithing or not. It looks like the real issue is how you and your spouse raise, discuss, and resolve issues. I'd submit that unless you both work on that, it really won't matter whether you set bills aside before depositing, or write a check after depositing.

Sorry to hear you're having a hard time.

[slamjet]

Tithing is less of a moral issue than you are making it out to be. It's more of an issue of faith. Do you believe the words of Malachi or not? Do you have faith in what the modern prophets say on the matter or not? Do you have faith in kneeling in prayer and finding out the answer on your own?

Also, loudmouth said, there's something else going on other than the issue of paying tithing. You did post that your wife "...ripped into me about a whole slew of things that just went on and on and on." It sound like the argument was less about tithing than about the general health of your relationship. I would suggest you sit down with her and calmly discuss what's really going on and how you can both deal with the financial stress that's hitting you both. Come up with a budget and a plan and stick to it. And of you need to, talk to a marriage counselor and/or your Bishop.

[applepansy]

From a woman's perspective, I can understand why it became a big issue for your wife. I do not understand why she set a suitcase by the door over tithing. I agree there is more going on there than you've stated.

Tithing has historically been more important to me than to my husband. As long as he got it paid by the end of the year he was fine. This bothered me but I let it go. Until this last year, when because there wasn't enough work throughout the year there wasn't enough money to "catch up." (And I can no longer work. I'm on disability.)

My commitment here is to the Lord, then my husband. I pay tithing on my increase separately from my husband. But we're in this life and eternity together. I made that covenant when we were married. That means if he's not temple worthy than as long as we're married I'm not either.

It is very hard to be financially and spiritually dependent on someone else. My husbands's choices regarding tithing affect the blessings WE receive. Not just his blessings. We're in this together. It is very, very hard to know that we would be blessed but not be able to help my husband understand and nobody can force someone else to have faith.

To me tithing is not an issue to cause a separation. But it wasn't until I quit yelling and broken-heartedly explained my feelings that I got my husband's attention. Since November WE've been full tithe payers every time money comes in and I'm not the one making out the check or begging him to.

You have to have a testimony of tithing. Please recognize that your wife is seeing the blessings lost because of what she perceives as a lack of faith on your part. That is the issue you need to address and then fix...... as well as whatever other communication issues you're having.

Good Luck.

[pam]

If anyone has read bcguy's past threads you will know there is more going on here than the fact of the tithing. So his mention of his wife's reaction is nothing new.

[slamjet]

If anyone has read bcguy's past threads you will know there is more going on here than the fact of the tithing. So his mention of his wife's reaction is nothing new.

Interesting. Then I shall defer to those with more knowledge of this situation.

[jayanna]

I had a home business for a few years. Yes, you need to deposit the money from your business, otherwise the IRS will think you are cheating.

I made a mistake my first year of paying tithing on all the payments I received for services, before figuring the cost of running the business (supplies, food, etc.) Every time I was paid, I paid 10% of it to tithing, only to find out at the end of the year at tithing settlement that I had paid in about 2,000 more than I needed to It is 10% of Increase, not income. My business actually didn't make a profit that year, just breaking even before taxes.

Ooops

The next year I was more careful, I got an accountant, kept better records, and made a small profit and then paid tithing on that.

[prophetofdoom]

I had a home business for a few years. Yes, you need to deposit the money from your business, otherwise the IRS will think you are cheating.

I made a mistake my first year of paying tithing on all the payments I received for services, before figuring the cost of running the business (supplies, food, etc.) Every time I was paid, I paid 10% of it to tithing, only to find out at the end of the year at tithing settlement that I had paid in about 2,000 more than I needed to It is 10% of Increase, not income. My business actually didn't make a profit that year, just breaking even before taxes.

Ooops

The next year I was more careful, I got an accountant, kept better records, and made a small profit and then paid tithing on that.

Would it be easier just to create a corporation and treat it as a separate entity? Then, when your business turns a profit and you are paid by the corporation.. you can tithe your 10%?

[slamjet]

Would it be easier just to create a corporation and treat it as a separate entity? Then, when your business turns a profit and you are paid by the corporation.. you can tithe your 10%?

Corporate S is not that simple and clear-cut. It offers protection, but it complicates the taxes and accounting.

[jayanna]

Would it be easier just to create a corporation and treat it as a separate entity? Then, when your business turns a profit and you are paid by the corporation.. you can tithe your 10%?

Someone I know actually suggested that at the time. He created his own corp., gave himself a generous salary, then when the company went bankrupt he didn't.

I don't know it just didn't feel like the right thing to do, but I did get to write off a lot of expenses, like quite a bit of my mortgage payment since it was in my home. There were definitely a lot of advantages come tax time.

Paying tithing when living off of a small business can be a bit complicated. You have to keep the business and yourself separate. If you, say, get paid 100 for a service or a product, but it cost you 40 in supplies and whatnot, then your increase would be the 60 left over.

If the credit cards are for the business, or if you used them to purchase items for the business, then you would pay them and other business expenses, then figure the actual amount you pay yourself from the business, and pay tithing on that. If they are credit cards for your personal expenses then you would pay them after paying tithing.

I do, however, highly recommend paying tithe as you go rather than waiting at the end of a year. My hubby and I paid tithing separately while I had that business. I didn't want to mess up on his tithing, you know, just in case.

[rameumptom]

I agree with Dravin. You have to gain your own testimony of tithing by praying over it.

That said, let me share a couple stories from my past regarding obeying first the commandments of God.

On my mission (1978-80) in Bolivia, I went with a member of the bishopric to visit an inactive sister. She explained she had to work on Sundays (selling items from a cart) to support her family. Her husband left her for another woman, she had 6 kids and one on the way, plus was supporting her mother-in-law. Sunday sales were her best. I explained the law of the Sabbath to her, and encouraged her to test the Lord. If she were to keep the Sabbath holy, he would make up for it on the other days. She took the test, and the Lord always made sure she had enough. She took on washing clothes for the missionaries, which paid her much better than she received on an average day's wages, and other good things began to happen to her.

Immediately after my mission, I was made home teacher to a new convert, who was studying at the university on the GI bill. He stated he had a problem: his rent was coming due, but he only had enough for rent or tithing, not both. I explained the law of tithing to him, and challenged him to prove/test the Lord. So he paid his tithes. Three days before his rent was due, he received a letter from his non-LDS mother. She wrote that she had been saving money in a cookie jar for years, but suddenly felt he needed it. Inside was a check for the exact amount of his rent.

If we pay others first, we are neglecting what we owe to God. Pay God first, then trust that He will bless you. If nothing else, you can receive assistance from the bishop if moneys are still short. But you would at least be a full tithe payer.

[Madriglace]

Pay your tithing first if you want to have the funds to pay your bills .... take the Lord at His word and "prove" that it works. When I finally got my head around tithing I discovered that I am never without what I need ... and even though it is a promise I am still amazed at what happens. Now I am afraid to not pay it.

My van was side swiped by a motorcycle and needed extensive repairs (not as much as the rider) during the waiting for checks and such my washer died. When all was said and done I was to the good exactly what I had to put out for my new washer ... it works.

For business purposes to be legal you need to deposit your income and keep detailed records ... also if possible put yourself on a salary. Makes things much easier ... but some times it is not practical.

[Guest]

Okay, I know there are a lot of really cool tithing stories out there - a lot of them shared on this thread.

But, I have to say, you don't pay tithing because you think it will make you money or whatever... because, I tell you, the bills you have before you started paying tithing will not magically disappear just because you started paying tithing.

The blessing of tithing is not financial or temporal. The blessing of tithing is the building of God's Kingdom here on earth. But, in addition to that, paying tithing is habit forming. Good habit. It keeps you humble - always giving thanks to the Lord for your "increase". It keeps you cognizant of your financial situation - because paying tithing is a conscious act of sacrifice... always a choice - pay tithing or buy shoes, pay tithing or pay debts, pay tithing or party! Everytime you make that choice, it is a reaffirmation of your love for God.

Paying debts instead of paying tithing sounds logical. But, even financial gurus like Dave Ramsey or that guy from Rich Dad Poor Dad will attest that it is not always a sound choice. Because, getting into debt is spending your future increase. That future increase is already spoken for - and tithing is a part of that. So, you are going to break a good habit to try to correct a bad one. No, it is better to continue with the good habit, pay debts with what money you got left over, and try not to get into debt again.

Yes, it may sound irresponsible to "throw away" needed money to something that won't put a lien on your house if you default. But, what you will find is that a good habit of tithing could keep you financially aware so that you can prevent yourself from compromising your financial future.

If you get into a financial bind after paying tithing, take it to the bishop and see what he can do to help you.

[mnn727]

. I pay tithing on my increase separately from my husband. But we're in this life and eternity together. I made that covenant when we were married. That means if he's not temple worthy than as long as we're married I'm not either.

.

That is incorrect

[SeanButler]

Last Sunday, I had a question about tithing. As a recent convert, I always have a lot of questions!

I just went from being unemployed to being employed. The reason I found a job is to save for a mission. My "increase" has increased. I wanted to know from the Lord if I should give more tithing, thus taking away from the money saved for a mission. I prayed about it, and the answer that I received from Heavenly Father was to give the 10% of what I'm earning now.

Even though it takes away from the mission fund, the sacrifice I make to help others is noted by the Lord. He will help me find a way to make the money I need to be able to go, as well as giving more to tithing.

Be willing to make the sacrifice on your part to give 10% of what you earn to tithing. Remember the sacrifice that Christ made for us, and it will comfort you when you make your own sacrifices. You will be blessed.

[Daybreak79]

You only need to pay tithing on what you receive as wages from your company. The company itself does not pay tithing.

Concerning the creditors, pay your tithing to the Lord first! Then pay the creditors whatever you can until you are no longer in debt to them.

[mnn727]

Business money always gets deposited first -- this is standard accounting proctice.

then business expenses get paid -all business expenses, then whatever is left over is your increase and THAT is what you can decide whether you want to pay tithing on.

As far as your wife and the suitcase -- sounds like you have more problems than just paying tithing -- I'd get that figured out first myself.

If my wife put out a suitcase for me to pack, I'd start packing HER things in it.

Seriously -- y'all need some conversation and perhaps even some counseling.

[bcguy]

Yes, it has been a difficult marriage. Wife personality reminds me to my of my close friends mom long ago. Very cheerful and loud to people outside of her family but when home lots of yelling and anger come into the home. She finally divorced her REALLY nice husband. I can pretty much pinpoint it to her emotional state. My wife HATES to be embarrassed, HATES to get her picture taken. She tells alot of people about her narcissistic brother. Now, I think she is pitting me against my parents.

Up until after our marriage, did not know how emotional my wife can be. It was really difficult in the beginning. It has lessened over the year but she can have BIG fits of anger over trivial things to most people. Since the suitcase packing scenario, she has mellowed out. She gave me a chocolate hot-chocolate and apple pie in my office the other night "kind of a surprise but she has done this also in the past"

She has come from a abusive family. Dad was called "the Sargent" because of his strict and demanding personality. Wife told me most of the young guys would never ask her out because of the dads personality. Mom is a fruit cake at times, very paranoid personality. My mom called her personality as "extreme". I would not characterizes it as extreme, just paranoid. She seems to be half way in a state of anxiety. Ever met a mom would would not allow the kids to use the washer and dryer because she was afraid "they" were going to break it?

I can only think my wife has inherited some of her personality traits with her dads anger. Or at least, it was learned personality while growing up. I can name a whole long list of things that anoy me. One of her favorite words is "your going to kill your self" and "I need to protect the fort" referring to the house. Her parents house front entrance door was kicked in a decade ago by two guys in a attempted break and enter. Her parents Houses front door entrance is STILL is boarded up today. My wifes mom never ever leaves the house vacant. Her mom will force "her husband and last renaming daughter to stay home to watch it or, have there dummy propped up on a sofa while no one is home"

Her brother is extreme narcissistic and has pissed off everyone in his family and kids, left the country for a job over seas and never talks to his four kids. His four kids don't want to have anything to do with him and he is LDS or that is, EX-lds!

I think I married into a soap opera marriage :/

Anyway, the tax issue. Glad to make it a point that My business money income is not taxable. I will transfer what I can live on into my personal checking, then it is considered taxable income. BTW, I really enjoy working for my self as long as I get a constant flow of jobs and income rolling in. Being in control of my own destiny is really nice but, it can be a real struggle. I need to boost my marketing, also, increase my tool count and get around the issue of being asked if im a licensed mechanic. In the US, there is no such thing as a licensed mechanic. Only ASE mechanic. ASE is not recognized here. But that does not stop me from doing a good job from all the many years of working on cars why working in the US shops and here in Canada. Only downside to this type of work of course, is working in the rainy weather. On the positive side, I can bring in almost a days wage on a single job or two, vs 3-5 jobs in a shop as a employee.