Running Red Lights

[Bini]

When do you take matters into your own hands? When are you in the "right" to do so and when are you in the "wrong"?

On my commute to work I was stopped behind two vehicles at a red light. We and the lane next to us were both in left-turn lanes. Initially, nothing seemed out of the ordinary. The light was red--not blinking (like they do when they're out). So both lanes sat there and more vehicles accumulated behind us. I'd estimate that each lane had about ten or so cars. About a minute passed and drivers started to get antsy. This particular traffic signal is usually quick changing. The light was still red and traffic left to right was still going through with a few breaks in between. A couple cars in the lane next to us took their chances and made a run for it. They got through. The light remained red and a few moments later, another car decided to turn left as well. It wasn't too long before there were honking horns trying to pressure the first car in my lane to go too. But the driver sat there and kept waiting for the green light. A few more cars had blinkers on to get over into the lane that was turning on the red. More went through. Apart of me wanted to get in line too so I could make good timing to work but I didn't. I just waited with the two other cars in front of me. At this point it seemed like forever! The light should have changed 3 or 4 times already! Then, the light changed. It was green. The first car in my lane made their turn. I ended up passing this car a few moments later. I saw a mother inside with her young children headed to school most likely. I thought, wow, everyone thought/assumed there was a traffic light malfunction and took matters into their own hands--turning left on a red. What would the consequence have been if any of these cars got hit? Or the car with the mother and children?

[Jennarator]

Sounds like the mother in the car cared more about her children than antsy people honking at her! Good for her! Although I am not sure I would do the same, I may have ran it.......not sure tho....would have to live it to know what I would do. :)

[Gwen]

staying put is the right thing. if someone cares more about work than their lives they can run the light.

if you are in doubt you can always call the police, most ppl have cells. i have the non emergency number in my phone for such things, something to think about if you don't. report that the light seems to be malfunctioning and ppl are starting to drive dangerously. they will likely send an officer (here they would) out to direct traffic on pretty short order under such a report.

[slamjet]

Just pay the ticket for running a red light and you'd be gun-shy also. Where I live, it's upwards of over $500.00 a violation.

[Guest]

I'm from the Philippines where traffic lights are treated as "guidelines" secondary to common sense. Reminds me of that line from Pirates of the Carribean:

First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner.

Of course, there are always those whose sense is not common... so, if you're not street-smart/brave enough to avoid these people, you should go with the guideline.

Policemen are too busy fighting criminals to worry about who is running a red light.

Now that I'm in the US, sometimes I deviate from the light. If I hurt my children, then may I die a thousand deaths and burn in the fires of hell for all eternity...

Edited March 8, 2011 by anatess

[RipplecutBuddha]

Actions have consequenses, and the laws we are given are there to protect us. This applies to the laws of our nations as well as the laws God has given us.

The consequences of running a red light can range from nothing at all, to wiping out a family in moments. The question should be asked, are you willing to accept those concequences?

As long as we operate within the laws we are given, we are protected. As soon as we step outside the bounds of the law, it can no longer protect us. The concequences of our choices are thus ours to claim, whether we like them or not.

[Gwen]

Policemen are too busy fighting criminals to worry about who is running a red light.

you weren't talking about one person who runs a red light (we get them here all the time and it frustrates me). you were talking about an intersection that was on the path (due to confusion of a change in the light for whatever reason) to becoming out of control and dangerous. during the rush hour commute (the most dangerous time). that is a problem, that is a concern for the safety of the community, that is part of the responsibilities of the police department. being there was no accident 911 would be over kill. but a call to the station and report what is happening isn't.

this i guess leaves the question of where do we draw the line of civic obligation as part of a community? is it just doing our part to follow the rules or do we report things like down lights in major intersections? is it our obligation as members of the community to report dangers like this?

personally i obviously think reporting it is the right thing to do. an experience that comes to mind. we are a very small town, we have no bus system, so in the morning and afternoon we have a lot of traffic trying to get in and out of the schools. there are multiple pick up points to try and decongestant things. the teachers spend a lot of time the first weeks of school drilling the kids (K-2nd grade) on where they can and can't walk to keep them safe. "always walk in the grass or sidewalk, NEVER the gravel parking lot". the first few weeks of school there are a lot of parents that get in a hurry and quite a few decided in their nice suv's they shouldn't have to wait in line at the driveway, they could leave the gravel parking lot by cutting across the grass to the road instead. as a parent this scared me, my child was being taught to walk in the grass and now they arbitrarily decide it's for driving on? i did call and report it to the principle. as the person responsible for the children's safety she was more upset than me. the next day there was a single cop car sitting there observing traffic. he didn't get out or "do" anything, his presence was enough to get ppl to do what they knew they were supposed to be doing. he only came about 3 days, that's all it took to get ppl in line.

yes their job is to catch "criminals" and included in that charge is public safety. i'm glad that our police department here remembers that and can be counted on to care about those "little" things.

[Guest]

you weren't talking about one person who runs a red light (we get them here all the time and it frustrates me). you were talking about an intersection that was on the path (due to confusion of a change in the light for whatever reason) to becoming out of control and dangerous. during the rush hour commute (the most dangerous time). that is a problem, that is a concern for the safety of the community, that is part of the responsibilities of the police department. being there was no accident 911 would be over kill. but a call to the station and report what is happening isn't.

this i guess leaves the question of where do we draw the line of civic obligation as part of a community? is it just doing our part to follow the rules or do we report things like down lights in major intersections? is it our obligation as members of the community to report dangers like this?

personally i obviously think reporting it is the right thing to do. an experience that comes to mind. we are a very small town, we have no bus system, so in the morning and afternoon we have a lot of traffic trying to get in and out of the schools. there are multiple pick up points to try and decongestant things. the teachers spend a lot of time the first weeks of school drilling the kids (K-2nd grade) on where they can and can't walk to keep them safe. "always walk in the grass or sidewalk, NEVER the gravel parking lot". the first few weeks of school there are a lot of parents that get in a hurry and quite a few decided in their nice suv's they shouldn't have to wait in line at the driveway, they could leave the gravel parking lot by cutting across the grass to the road instead. as a parent this scared me, my child was being taught to walk in the grass and now they arbitrarily decide it's for driving on? i did call and report it to the principle. as the person responsible for the children's safety she was more upset than me. the next day there was a single cop car sitting there observing traffic. he didn't get out or "do" anything, his presence was enough to get ppl to do what they knew they were supposed to be doing. he only came about 3 days, that's all it took to get ppl in line.

yes their job is to catch "criminals" and included in that charge is public safety. i'm glad that our police department here remembers that and can be counted on to care about those "little" things.

No, I wasn't talking about one person running a red light or 200 people running a red light. I'm talking about policemen in the PHILIPPINES do not have the time to catch people running red lights because they're too busy running after the criminals.

When you have terrorist groups living in the midst of society, red lights and speed limits are the least of your worries...

In the Philippines, people police themselves because there are not enough resources for policemen to do the domestic stuff. People don't sue for much over there. For example, if you run over a kid while running a red light, the police is the least of your worries... you better make sure you have a strong family, because his entire family is coming after your entire family. And when we say family - that includes all the families in the village/subdivision/locality that kid comes from, plus all the cousins even 5 times removed.

On a side note: I don't tell the kids where to walk to be safe. I tell the kids how to decide for themselves which side of the road is safe. That's why I'm not impressed by the American education system. They treat the kids like mindless robots. I prefer the Montessori method of teaching. That's what I'm following for my kids. Because, the kids should know how to watch for that stupid mom with the suv running the gravel...

Edited March 9, 2011 by anatess

[Gwen]

No, I wasn't talking about one person running a red light or 200 people running a red light. I'm talking about policemen in the PHILIPPINES do not have the time to catch people running red lights because they're too busy running after the criminals.

When you have terrorist groups living in the midst of society, red lights and speed limits are the least of your worries...

lol sorry i'm tired, was up most of the night.

yes, the comment about the police having better things to do did rub me wrong. thinking on that i miss worded my first paragraph, not you, the op was about more than one person. lol ugh i have known ppl that were seriously traumatized by accidents caused by ppl running red lights. when ppl can die i don't see it as a "little" issue.

some see it as ironic but at the same time i'm very against traffic light cameras for law enforcement. if they want to monitor so they can replay accidents or something fine but i don't agree with mail order tickets.

i'm glad i live in a place where the police can care about such things. even if i have had my run in on occasion where i was very upset and have said "don't they have better things to do?" lol

[Guest]

lol sorry i'm tired, was up most of the night.

yes, the comment about the police having better things to do did rub me wrong. thinking on that i miss worded my first paragraph, not you, the op was about more than one person. lol ugh i have known ppl that were seriously traumatized by accidents caused by ppl running red lights. when ppl can die i don't see it as a "little" issue.

some see it as ironic but at the same time i'm very against traffic light cameras for law enforcement. if they want to monitor so they can replay accidents or something fine but i don't agree with mail order tickets.

i'm glad i live in a place where the police can care about such things. even if i have had my run in on occasion where i was very upset and have said "don't they have better things to do?" lol

I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't see it the same way as you do... Waldo, Florida, for instance don't impose 35mph speed limit for safety. They impose it for revenue.

I would like to think that I can determine for myself which is safe and which isn't. I understand the rules and I follow them. But, going while the light is red doesn't necessarily automatically throw safety out the window... no, I don't make a habit of running red lights (yes, I do break the speed limit a lot), but I don't automatically assume the guy running the red light is a stupid idiot who doesn't know what he's doing...

Do you know what I mean?

[Gwen]

I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't see it the same way as you do... Waldo, Florida, for instance don't impose 35mph speed limit for safety. They impose it for revenue.

I would like to think that I can determine for myself which is safe and which isn't. I understand the rules and I follow them. But, going while the light is red doesn't necessarily automatically throw safety out the window... no, I don't make a habit of running red lights (yes, I do break the speed limit a lot), but I don't automatically assume the guy running the red light is a stupid idiot who doesn't know what he's doing...

Do you know what I mean?

yes i do understand what you are saying. the only for revenue issue is why i'm against traffic enforcement through cameras. i do think ppl need to be trusted to a certain extent. i've seen areas that hold construction speeds for miles after the work has stopped for that kind of thing. it's very frustrating.

i rarely name call (judge) and what not in the car when someone appears careless. i'm very sensitive to that kind of thing as well (my father was bad to call ppl stupid and what not while driving and it had quite the impact on me). there are times when it's warranted and i don't know what that time is for the other driver.

i'm really not a stick in the mud. lol

[rex8499]

If the light skipped the turn movement for 4 cycles, it was indeed malfunctioning. (I'm a civil engineer, traffic/streets is part of my expertise) At such a time I would have run the red as well, and have done so in the past in the same situation. Running a red light can definitely be accomplished safely if done intentionally and carefully. We do it every day making a left turn out into a busy street from a stop sign. Same concept. No more dangerous.

If a cop ticketed me for it, I'd easily fight that one and win. I cannot be expected to sit there indefinitely. Backing up would be illegal too. As would changing lanes at the stop bar.

Waldo, Florida, for instance don't impose 35mph speed limit for safety. They impose it for revenue.

That well may be the case and as such is not legally enforceable. If you get a ticket, go down to the city public works department and request the engineering traffic speed study. If they cannot give the proper documented study justifying a lower than standard speed, the judge cannot enforce the ticket. :) I'll leave the specifics of whether or not they've justified it up to your own research and learning if you need it. Too long to write here, but not complicated. hint: 85th percentile speed.

[Bini]

So I read everyone's responses—interesting insights.

Let's say you're walking down a street when you hear distressed whimpering. As you approach a house, you see a dog through the slats of a fence that is in the backyard on a tie-out. The dog is severely tangled and is choking on its own lead. You hurry to the front door and ring the bell to alert the owners. But there's no response. You bang on the door repeatedly several times. And again, there's no response. At this point, you assume no one is home. You realise the dog doesn't have much time left and return to the fence. It's much too high to jump or climb and the gate is locked but with enough force, it could easily be kicked open. You decide to do just that and upon trespassing onto private property, you have also destroyed the gate and part of the fence. But you make it just in time to rescue the dog from its fate.

The question is now this: Can you do something within reason but your actions still be in the wrong?

The Lord says we must abide by the Laws of The Land, correct? What happens when what feels right, is actually wrong in the eyes of the law? On what side does the Lord stand?

[rex8499]

In my mind, common sense and acting in necessity in a specific situation overrides laws which were made to cover general conditions to preserve general order and safety.

[Dravin]

The question is now this: Can you do something within reason but your actions still be in the wrong?

Certainly. It is reasonable* for a criminal, in some circumstances, to kill witnesses. Hardly a moral choice to make.

* That may depend on what you mean by reasonable. I'm taking it to mean it is a reasoned action. If you mean an action most would consider to be within justification then my example is kinda juxtaposed.

The Lord says we must abide by the Laws of The Land, correct? What happens when what feels right, is actually wrong in the eyes of the law? On what side does the Lord stand?

You mean, and this is an extreme example, helping Jews during and inside of the Third Reich? Maybe slightly less polarized would be something like the civil disobedience of the civil rights movement. Heck, this country was founded by the aid of armed rebellion against a Sovereign. A less extreme example would be something like sharing prescription medication amongst family members.

Luckily we can ask the Lord if we doubt as I don't think there is a one size fits all answer for your question unless we can get away with an "it depends".

Edited March 10, 2011 by Dravin

[jayanna]

Well, I don't know about where you guys are, but a malfunctioning stop light means, 'stop at the light and then go as if is were a stop sign' here.

Though actually running a read light can mean death for somebody. There have been some people killed at the intersection about a 1/4 mile from me. Trucks on the highway run the light and someone gets creamed. I'm worried about when my daughter starts driving. It almost happened to me a few years ago. I was driving my daughters and a little girl that was a friend of theirs into the next town. I was coming up on the intersection and the light had been green for a while, so I knew that I'd better hurry or I'd miss it. There were also 3 or 4 cars behind me. The radio was playing the girls' favorite music, and they were talking and giggling as little girls do. Then the Holy Ghost says "Stop." He didn't say it loudly, but I heard it over the radio and the girls. So I stopped, immediately, right there. The girls were thrown forward into their seatbelts and stopped talking. I started looking around, trying to find out why He would tell me to do that. That's when a great big semi truck blew through the intersection, running the red light at full speed and then some. I'm so glad that He told me to stop, and I'm glad that I had heard Him before and new what his voice sounded like.

I thought I would follow the driver, and possibly report the license plate, but by the time I made the turn he/she was so far ahead of me there was no chance of reading it. I really wish the highway patrol would camp there for a day or two and slow down the rate of speed there.

[Guest]

So I read everyone's responses—interesting insights.

Let's say you're walking down a street when you hear distressed whimpering. As you approach a house, you see a dog through the slats of a fence that is in the backyard on a tie-out. The dog is severely tangled and is choking on its own lead. You hurry to the front door and ring the bell to alert the owners. But there's no response. You bang on the door repeatedly several times. And again, there's no response. At this point, you assume no one is home. You realise the dog doesn't have much time left and return to the fence. It's much too high to jump or climb and the gate is locked but with enough force, it could easily be kicked open. You decide to do just that and upon trespassing onto private property, you have also destroyed the gate and part of the fence. But you make it just in time to rescue the dog from its fate.

The question is now this: Can you do something within reason but your actions still be in the wrong?

The Lord says we must abide by the Laws of The Land, correct? What happens when what feels right, is actually wrong in the eyes of the law? On what side does the Lord stand?

Let's make it even more interesting...

This guy's wife just delivered a new baby and died. He lost his job a while ago, he lost his house, he has no money for food or anything to take care of the baby, so he went to this other guy's house, broke down his door and stole milk from his fridge....

I say, for every action you do, you weigh the consequences. If the Spirit tells you it is the right thing to do, then do it and suffer the consequence. At least your conscience is clear.

There's a slight difference between Choosing the Right and Standing for the Right. (Just learned that in Primary last Sunday).

So, if I was in the shoes of the guy saving the dog, I would save the dog and if I have to go to jail for breaking down the gate, I'll gladly serve it because I know my husband can take care of our kids. Now, if my kids couldn't live without me for a few months while I serve time, I'm gonna have to walk away from the dog. In either case, God can do with me what He wills because in my complete honesty I tried to choose the right. I'm going to have to trust in His mercy.

Edited March 10, 2011 by anatess

[rex8499]

If we take the dog example even further, say it's a kid getting strangled in the back yard. I'm pretty sure EVERYONE would kick open that gate and run to his rescue without knocking on the front door first. It is justified even though illegal. No matter what the consequences might be, they're worth it. But I challenge you to find a judge who will **** for you such an action.

[NeuroTypical]

As long as we operate within the laws we are given, we are protected.

Sorry - could I ask for a little clarification here? Protected how, and from what? What does this protection for the law-abiding look like to you?

[Gwen]

i think the problem in the examples is you stop to soon. ok you break into the yard and you save the dog....now what? do you leave the dog there to die another day when you aren't walking by? do you "steal" the dog for a better life? if you call the authorities (i'm sure animal cruelty is against the law most places) and report it then that would legally justify you for the breaking of the fence. yes/no? if you called first they would have done just what you did.

the stealing the milk just seems like an odd example, very out there in the realm of possibility. i can't imagine my neighbors stealing food in such a way. more likely the guy steals from the neighbors garden when they aren't home? (i know that won't feed an infant) i'd say just ask, i have bought milk for ppl in this situation. i can't imagine a neighbor turning me away. if the example were a person stealing from the store to feed their kid i might be able to process it. lol

[Blackmarch]

When do you take matters into your own hands? When are you in the "right" to do so and when are you in the "wrong"?

On my commute to work I was stopped behind two vehicles at a red light. We and the lane next to us were both in left-turn lanes. Initially, nothing seemed out of the ordinary. The light was red--not blinking (like they do when they're out). So both lanes sat there and more vehicles accumulated behind us. I'd estimate that each lane had about ten or so cars. About a minute passed and drivers started to get antsy. This particular traffic signal is usually quick changing. The light was still red and traffic left to right was still going through with a few breaks in between. A couple cars in the lane next to us took their chances and made a run for it. They got through. The light remained red and a few moments later, another car decided to turn left as well. It wasn't too long before there were honking horns trying to pressure the first car in my lane to go too. But the driver sat there and kept waiting for the green light. A few more cars had blinkers on to get over into the lane that was turning on the red. More went through. Apart of me wanted to get in line too so I could make good timing to work but I didn't. I just waited with the two other cars in front of me. At this point it seemed like forever! The light should have changed 3 or 4 times already! Then, the light changed. It was green. The first car in my lane made their turn. I ended up passing this car a few moments later. I saw a mother inside with her young children headed to school most likely. I thought, wow, everyone thought/assumed there was a traffic light malfunction and took matters into their own hands--turning left on a red. What would the consequence have been if any of these cars got hit? Or the car with the mother and children?

when one violates the law they have no promise or assurance- and sometimes inflicts that upon others (willingly or unwillingly).

[talisyn]

Who said something like 'character is what you do when you're alone'?

[bcguy]

running red lights is tricky. If you misjudge, it can mean the difference between life and death or disability. Is is worth it? I usally stay the speed limit "my vehicle drive like a tractor" I also drive some times like a hyper miller. I see the green turning yellow 1/8 of a mile down the road and take my foot off the throttle. By the time light turns green, I have not stopped yet, and just speed up. It saved in fuel economy!

Talking about hyper mileing, scedule your stops as one single trip, instead of several trips. Write errand list down and when you are going to do them.

Or like me, walk to your destination. Its good for the body.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Sorry - could I ask for a little clarification here? Protected how, and from what? What does this protection for the law-abiding look like to you?

Let's use the example of running a red light as given by the OP. What dangers present themselves if you run a red light? How many of them remain if you stay put?

At the very least you're protected from getting a ticket and having a good chunk of your next paycheck or two given to the city.

Now look at the laws God gives us, and ask the same questions you ask above. How do God's laws protect us, and from what? What does this protection for the law-abiding look like to you?

He that keeps the laws of God has no need to break the laws of man.

[NeuroTypical]

As long as we operate within the laws we are given, we are protected.

Sorry - could I ask for a little clarification here? Protected how, and from what? What does this protection for the law-abiding look like to you?

Let's use the example of running a red light as given by the OP. What dangers present themselves if you run a red light? How many of them remain if you stay put? At the very least you're protected from getting a ticket and having a good chunk of your next paycheck or two given to the city.

I guess I see what you're saying. But with all the innocent law-abiding people out there who die due to drunk drivers or innatentive drivers, or poorly marked road hazzards, or weather-related deaths, I wouldn't say that following the law makes one protected.

Now look at the laws God gives us, and ask the same questions you ask above. How do God's laws protect us, and from what? What does this protection for the law-abiding look like to you?

If you're talking eternal perspective, we're fine. If you're talking having blessings in life, we're fine. If you're talking "being a good person means you'll never face adversity or harm in this life", well, I can't go that far.

He that keeps the laws of God has no need to break the laws of man.

I don't agree with this either, because of situations where there are unjust laws from unjust men. People have to break the laws of man all the time to save their families and their souls, in places like North Korea or Iran.