Why Preschool Shouldn't Be Like School

[Backroads]

But the opposite is not true... there are a lot more requirements needed to teach at certain private schools than is needed in public schools.

And yes, teachers DO go for these specific training to be able to teach in the private setting - because they can get paid more.

My son's teacher is a montessori certified, master's degree touting, private school teacher. It's the minimum requirement to teach 1st graders in that school. There's a montessori-magnet public elementary school in my county. They do not require montessori certification for their teachers - they only need it for their administrators and, of course, no master's degree required.

I'm afraid you're wrong aside from the fact that certain private schools require those.

But not all.

You would be surprised at the number of public schools that require a minimum or a master's degree. Or a degree in ESL. Or a specialization in a certain subject.

I have lots of specific training from when I taught in a public school. And guess what? Public schools also pay more for these. I don't know where you're getting that idea. Lots of public school teachers get the EXACT SAME SPECIFIC TRAINING because it WILL get them paid more.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I will give that generally private schools provide better results; I just want to argue that is not true every single time.

What I am trying to say is that private schools teachers are not necessarily better teachers than public school teachers.

The issue here is how bad teachers are handled. In the private system they are terminated, neat and clean. Public schools in some areas are having to separate teachers from students and continue paying them because they can't be fired. The public system, being immune from market forces, can artifically keep afloat what should sink. Justice is slow, stymied by disproportionate union protections and "rights". I would say in general that private school teachers ARE better than their public school counterparts because private schools have a more efficient system for ridding themselves of bad teachers resulting in an improved grading curve.

[Soulsearcher]

Teachers in Wisconsin should have a great deal of stress lifted from them. After all, they don't have any union meetings or requirements any more. In regard to emails, they can be quick and to the point and only need to be sent for students who miss assignments or do poorly on tests, not every single student.

You're right that there are no easy answers but the system needs to be overhauled so that those teachers who work harder and care more (as expressed in communicating with parents via advanced technology) can rise to the top. MOE is saying that parents should be more involved, but how can they be if teachers don't communicate? BTW, 6 months isn't being too busy, it's gross incompetence and laziness. I've annoyed my fair share of "too busy" teachers by showing up unannounced for an impromptu conference. I agree that teachers are busy, but as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If a parent needs a teacher to make them become more involved then there is a problem with that parent. They should be involved every night with homework at all grade levels, keep track of their kids marks themselves, quiz their kids on current units they are taking, tracking their reading themselves. All quite do able with out a teachers involvement. Now add good communication on both parts of the parents and teachers and you have a much better system, sadly in my experience though parents tend to lay the blame at other peoples feet before doing their own fair share.

[Backroads]

My son's teacher is a montessori certified, master's degree touting, private school teacher. It's the minimum requirement to teach 1st graders in that school. There's a montessori-magnet public elementary school in my county. They do not require montessori certification for their teachers - they only need it for their administrators and, of course, no master's degree required.

That's not a true Montessori, then.

However, you have to consider this: It's very, very difficult to find places to find Montessori training for teachers in the US that are practical. So... many Montessori schools hire teachers with the intention to train them in Montessori method, often paying part or all of the fee. These schools have access to teacher training programs.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

If a parent needs a teacher to make them become more involved then there is a problem with that parent. They should be involved every night with homework at all grade levels, keep track of their kids marks themselves, quiz their kids on current units they are taking, tracking their reading themselves. All quite do able with out a teachers involvement. Now add good communication on both parts of the parents and teachers and you have a much better system, sadly in my experience though parents tend to lay the blame at other peoples feet before doing their own fair share.

I think we're vigorously agreeing with each other. It takes effort from both teachers and parents to stay in communication regarding a student's performance.

[Backroads]

If a parent needs a teacher to make them become more involved then there is a problem with that parent. They should be involved every night with homework at all grade levels, keep track of their kids marks themselves, quiz their kids on current units they are taking, tracking their reading themselves. All quite do able with out a teachers involvement. Now add good communication on both parts of the parents and teachers and you have a much better system, sadly in my experience though parents tend to lay the blame at other peoples feet before doing their own fair share.

Thank-you! Does anyone have any idea how hard it is to teach the child of a parent who could not care less about the child's education?

At my old school, we had a case where a special needs girl went into a class and came out dumber than when she entered. The problem? Who knows? The teacher had his doctorates, 35 years' teaching experience, 10 years experience as a pastor working with youth. He was popular had received three teaching awards over the year. However, her parents refused to work with her. They became upset everytime the teacher gave her a challenge.

[Backroads]

I think we're vigorously agreeing with each other. It takes effort from both teachers and parents to stay in communication regarding a student's performance.

Schools truly are meant to be a community thing.

[Guest]

That's not a true Montessori, then.

However, you have to consider this: It's very, very difficult to find places to find Montessori training for teachers in the US that are practical. So... many Montessori schools hire teachers with the intention to train them in Montessori method, often paying part or all of the fee. These schools have access to teacher training programs.

You will not find too many TRUE montessori k-12 school in Florida. A true montessori cannot pass the Florida State requirements.

And yes, the University of Miami as well as other colleges in Florida has a complete Montessori teacher training program both undergrad and post grad... very highly accredited.

[Backroads]

The issue here is how bad teachers are handled. In the private system they are terminated, neat and clean. Public schools in some areas are having to separate teachers from students and continue paying them because they can't be fired. The public system, being immune from market forces, can artifically keep afloat what should sink. Justice is slow, stymied by disproportionate union protections and "rights". I would say in general that private school teachers ARE better than their public school counterparts because private schools have a more efficient system for ridding themselves of bad teachers resulting in an improved grading curve.

I agree. I never liked teacher's unions and I am in favor of weeding out bad teachers.

I like that you are only making a general statement, because the impression I was getting from you earlier was downright insulting. You also have to consider that many extremely excellent, extremely qualified teachers LIKE the public school setting for a number of reasons. I do not like the suggestion that only the best teachers apply at private schools and only the worst at public schools.

The system of being able to fire them is a very good benefit of private schools; however, it doesn't mean all private school teachers are better than all public school teachers and I hope you don't look down on someone just because he/she happens to be a public school teacher.

[Backroads]

You will not find too many TRUE montessori k-12 school in Florida. A true montessori cannot pass the Florida State requirements.

And yes, the University of Miami as well as other colleges in Florida has a complete Montessori teacher training program both undergrad and post grad... very highly accredited.

Sadly, Florida is not a convenient place for many wannabe Montessori teachers.

Out of curiosity, why can't a true Montessori pass the state requirements? Is it because of the non-grading and whatnot?

Somewhat off-topic... what are your thoughts on Montessori?

[Guest]

I'm afraid you're wrong aside from the fact that certain private schools require those.

But not all.

You would be surprised at the number of public schools that require a minimum or a master's degree. Or a degree in ESL. Or a specialization in a certain subject.

I have lots of specific training from when I taught in a public school. And guess what? Public schools also pay more for these. I don't know where you're getting that idea. Lots of public school teachers get the EXACT SAME SPECIFIC TRAINING because it WILL get them paid more.

You are comparing in a mix-match manner.

If you are comparing ESL - then yes, of course public schools require special cert for those. But so does private schools who teach ESL.

If you are comparing special needs education - then yes, public schools require special cert for those too. But so does private school.

And of course, special training requires special pay. And so does private school.

My point was - there is an ADVANTAGE to private schools to their public school counterpart - they have to COMPETE - so they can't afford bad teachers.

[Backroads]

You are comparing in a mix-match manner.

If you are comparing ESL - then yes, of course public schools require special cert for those. But so does private schools who teach ESL.

If you are comparing special needs education - then yes, public schools require special cert for those too. But so does private school.

And of course, special training requires special pay. And so does private school.

My point was - there is an ADVANTAGE to private schools to their public school counterpart - they have to COMPETE - so they can't afford bad teachers.

No more mix-match than the rest of you. Your argument was simplified to the point that private schools require things and public schools don't. I pointed out it simply wasn't true.

I'm fine with private schools competing. I think it's a good thing. Another reason I support vouchers--it gets the public schools competing.

[Soulsearcher]

I think we're vigorously agreeing with each other. It takes effort from both teachers and parents to stay in communication regarding a student's performance.

Yes but the parents need to be taking a much more active role and not waiting for the teacher to point out their falling short then complaining the teacher didn't give them notice.

[Backroads]

Yes but the parents need to be taking a much more active role and not waiting for the teacher to point out their falling short then complaining the teacher didn't give them notice.

Exactly. I once had a conversation with a woman in my parents' ward (who presently works in education) who honesty believed with her first kid that she was not required to teach him anything prior to schooling years and that during that time she was not to come to the teacher with any worries, concerns, observations, etc.

She laughs about that time.

Then again, I think such things sometimes do need to be spelled out for parents. That can be the teacher's role. If it needs to be done for the sake of the student, do it. Teachers also can't wait around whining about how their students' parents do nothing without speaking to the parents.

Is anyone familiar with the No Excuses University program?

[Guest]

Sadly, Florida is not a convenient place for many wannabe Montessori teachers.

Out of curiosity, why can't a true Montessori pass the state requirements? Is it because of the non-grading and whatnot?

Somewhat off-topic... what are your thoughts on Montessori?

It might be off topic but I wrote a long post on it here. I LOVE Montessori. It is THE THING that saved my children!

That post should answer all your questions. (I think...)

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Exactly. I once had a conversation with a woman in my parents' ward (who presently works in education) who honesty believed with her first kid that she was not required to teach him anything prior to schooling years and that during that time she was not to come to the teacher with any worries, concerns, observations, etc.

She laughs about that time.

Then again, I think such things sometimes do need to be spelled out for parents. That can be the teacher's role. If it needs to be done for the sake of the student, do it. Teachers also can't wait around whining about how their students' parents do nothing without speaking to the parents.

Is anyone familiar with the No Excuses University program?

Is it fair to say that quarterly grades mailed home is too infrequent a means of communicating that there is a problem? Sometimes that's all parents get and the semester is half over!

[Soulsearcher]

Exactly. I once had a conversation with a woman in my parents' ward (who presently works in education) who honesty believed with her first kid that she was not required to teach him anything prior to schooling years and that during that time she was not to come to the teacher with any worries, concerns, observations, etc.

She laughs about that time.

Then again, I think such things sometimes do need to be spelled out for parents. That can be the teacher's role. If it needs to be done for the sake of the student, do it. Teachers also can't wait around whining about how their students' parents do nothing without speaking to the parents.

Is anyone familiar with the No Excuses University program?

The issue with this is parents have to listen and get rid of some pride. Your child isn't an angel, you have to do work, yes it's my job to teach during the day, but it's your job to follow through, if you don't do your job don't complain about my results.

[Guest]

No more mix-match than the rest of you. Your argument was simplified to the point that private schools require things and public schools don't. I pointed out it simply wasn't true.

I'm fine with private schools competing. I think it's a good thing. Another reason I support vouchers--it gets the public schools competing.

Sorry, I didn't mean to mix-match... I see where you got that now.

I was comparing the private Montessori school from the public Montessori school... different requirements. One more than the other. It's true for all the other stuff. I have yet to find a private Montessori school that have less requirements than the public school counterpart (not counting the "wishy washy Montessori in name only" schools that are not accredited with the AMS or at least with the FCIS).

Disclaimer. I only know Florida....

We had vouchers on vote in florida - it didn't pass...

[Backroads]

Is it fair to say that quarterly grades mailed home is too infrequent a means of communicating that there is a problem? Sometimes that's all parents get and the semester is half over!

Oh, yeah! I liked blogs, emails, random chats after/before school, etc. There are so many more effective ways than a mere progress report. Don't get me wrong, those have their time and place, but it's not effective to get them after little Johnny already failed to get a concept two months back.

[Backroads]

It might be off topic but I wrote a long post on it here. I LOVE Montessori. It is THE THING that saved my children!

That post should answer all your questions. (I think...)

High five.

I'm a huge fan of Montessori (the aforementioned private school actually is Montessori.) I've been unofficially studying it since high school, have observed a couple of Montessori schools, and find it really fits with my teaching philosophy.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

We had vouchers on vote in florida - it didn't pass...

Which brings up another gross injustice. Union political pressure can drown out the voice of the people using mandatory dues to for political (democrat!) activism. I am so grateful that Governor Walker and the Wisconsin legislature stood up to the unions and listened to the people that put them into office. If it can happen in Wisconsin, it can happen anywhere.

[Guest]

Is it fair to say that quarterly grades mailed home is too infrequent a means of communicating that there is a problem? Sometimes that's all parents get and the semester is half over!

Since we are sharing sob stories here's direct from my experiences:

My kid comes home with a B in reading, C in math in his quarterly grade. My kid is a reader - as in - that's his strongest point. Math, he is also good at.

So, of course I get worried, so I asked for a conference.

Me: "I am worried that my son is not doing well in school. I want to know what I can do to help him."

Teacher: "Your son is doing fine. He is a little rumbunctious, but he is a good student."

Me: "Yes, I understand about his being rumbunctious - we have been working on that and he has improved a lot over the course of 3 years. I'm more worried that he only got a B in reading and a C in math."

Teacher: "Oh, those are good grades! There's nothing to worry about."

Me: "Uhm... no, if he is getting a B in reading - his strongest subject - then he is not getting good grades. I expect him to get an A in reading and an A in math. He might not get an A in language arts, Science, or Social Studies, but at least those 2 subjects, he should have an A".

Teacher: "Then you have a problem with your expectations. His grades are just fine."

I KID YOU NOT! That last line is VERBATIM.

I tried to move my kid out of that class... No Dice! I am not just the squeaky wheel... I have gone way past that.

I have a kid that is born in the last week of August, and I have a kid who is born on the first week of September... both of them are either too old or too young for their respective classes. And they are both very active boys that have been encouraged to be active. They don't fit in the public schools setting.

[Wingnut]

Then again, I think such things sometimes do need to be spelled out for parents. That can be the teacher's role. If it needs to be done for the sake of the student, do it. Teachers also can't wait around whining about how their students' parents do nothing without speaking to the parents.

Expectations need to be shared. Students can't meet them if all parties involved don't know what they are. I haven't done anything yet to contact my local schools, and perhaps I should, but I have no idea what will be expected of my daughter by the time she enters kindergarten. She'll be three in a month, so she won't be starting kindergarten for two years, but it would be nice to know now what skills and knowledge are expected to be in place by the time she gets there.

(I realize that you are speaking more specifically of once a child is already in school, and there is a parent-teacher relationship there, even if it's only implied.)

[Backroads]

I would say in general that private school teachers ARE better than their public school counterparts because private schools have a more efficient system for ridding themselves of bad teachers resulting in an improved grading curve.

Had to clarify this statement:

You are saying that Teacher with such-n-such Excellent Qualities applies at a high standards private school and gets the job. Teacher with such-n-such Not-So-Excellent Qualities applies at a public school and gets the job.

Okay, the first teacher is better because of the qualities. Therefore, if this were repeated many times, private schools would tend to have teachers of the first kind and public schools of the latter.

Is it still possible for Teacher with such-n-such Excellent Qualities to apply at a public school and STILL have those excellent qualities and skills?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Since we are sharing sob stories here's direct from my experiences:

My kid comes home with a B in reading, C in math in his quarterly grade. My kid is a reader - as in - that's his strongest point. Math, he is also good at.

So, of course I get worried, so I asked for a conference.

Me: "I am worried that my son is not doing well in school. I want to know what I can do to help him."

Teacher: "Your son is doing fine. He is a little rumbunctious, but he is a good student."

Me: "Yes, I understand about his being rumbunctious - we have been working on that and he has improved a lot over the course of 3 years. I'm more worried that he only got a B in reading and a C in math."

Teacher: "Oh, those are good grades! There's nothing to worry about."

Me: "Uhm... no, if he is getting a B in reading - his strongest subject - then he is not getting good grades. I expect him to get an A in reading and an A in math. He might not get an A in language arts, Science, or Social Studies, but at least those 2 subjects, he should have an A".

Teacher: "Then you have a problem with your expectations. His grades are just fine."

I KID YOU NOT! That last line is VERBATIM.

I tried to move my kid out of that class... No Dice! I am not just the squeaky wheel... I have gone way past that.

I have a kid that is born in the last week of August, and I have a kid who is born on the first week of September... both of them are either too old or too young for their respective classes. And they are both very active boys that have been encouraged to be active. They don't fit in the public schools setting.

Sounds like a conversation I had about my oldest. I kept asking for specifics. Did he miss homework assignments? Is he not participating in class? I got the same runaround you did. I've never once gotten that attitude from the teachers in the private school I moved him to. More often than not, I was bombarded with details so a got a clear picture of what was going on. Having dealt with more than one teacher in this new school, I can confidently say this is a standard of performance that the school itself encourages. What a difference!