Born this way

[Soulsearcher]

This makes me smile. It's also pretty ...typical.

I'm glad i could make you smile by yet again pointing out errors you make, and you're right it is getting typical but i really don't mind, eventually you might learn something, i mean miracles do happen right? :)

[ferretrunner]

I had this discussion with a co-worker a while back. We had both watched the documentary "Prop 8" on Netflix. I told him that I could understand where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was coming from. If marriage between the same genders was made legal, then legally, a same-sex couple could sue to get a church to marry them.

Now, my own (and many others') solution is to un-couple the institution of marriage from the tax code. I lived in Germany for 3 years while in the Army. There, you can get married in a church all you want, but unless you go to the city hall and fill out paperwork for a civil union, you're not "married" in the eyes of the state. I think the same system here would solve a lot of our problems. No church would have to marry a couple they deemed unworthy and no couple, regardless of composition would be deemed unworthy in the eyes of the state.

It's just such a tragedy that so many people won't let their misconceptions go. I can't believe that a loving God would insert something so divisive into the thinking of His children.

I agree. Marriage should be a religious institution. The legal/ state aspect of it should be separate. Not everyone is religious. Let the religious instutitions decide who they will (or won't) marry and have a union offered by the state for those who want the legal status without the religious ceremony.

(General): A few months ago, there was a rash of suicides by gay teens and young adults. That song offers encouragement to keep going- that if you're gay, you're ok. You're not something nasty, sinful, awful, horrible. The aong offers encouragement that you're just a normal human being like everyone else. Everyone is different in some way.

Same sex attraction isn't a "choice." You can also see same sex attraction in the animal kingdom, besides humans. There does seem to be some sort of biological connection.

However, people can choose how to act. From the religious perspective, they could choose not to act on their same sex attraction. This is hard and basically cuts people off from having relationships. Many people with same sex attraction choose to marry traditionally anyway. Unfortunately, they are living a lie. Often they are unhappy and the relationship is strained. Many end in divorce.

Therapy to help someone turn from being gay is controversial. There is no evidence it is effective. Perhaps, if the person is bisexual, he/she can focus the attraction only on opposite sex pairing. But, for the people who are homosexual, there's no evidence the therapy is effective. There are some ancedotal reports of it working. But, it's not evidence based practice.

[mnn727]

When I was a teenager I had some homosexual experiences with some friends; however, I turned out very straight and never looked back. When I bring this up to the LGBT community, they tell me that I was just young and too immature and didn't understand the decisions I was making.

I thought their whole point was it was not a decision.

Personally I believe for some people its not a decision, for others it is. I see it as a line

x% are gay x % are straight, everyone else falls in between and could go either way depending on circumstances.

Edited March 29, 2011 by mnn727

[prisonchaplain]

Related to the question of how one becomes attracted to the same sex, is how successful reparative or conversion therapy is. The overall consensus is that such efforts are difficult at best. APA recently passed a resolution saying that evidence of success for such efforts is lacking. At the same time, the paper did acknowledge that people of faith are often deeply conflicted by their faith tenets vs. their sexual orientation, and encouraged therapists to walk with their clients through these very real struggles.

The therapists that embrace conservative Christian beliefs are divided between encouraging conversion therapy, despite the difficulties and high failure rates, and an approach that has been termed "faith identity." This relatively new approach suggests focusing on one's faith identity rather than the sexual identity. "I may have this particular sexual orientation, but how do I live out my faith, in spite of it?"

For an evangelical discussion on this matter see: No Straight Shot | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

[Traveler]

Related to the question of how one becomes attracted to the same sex, is how successful reparative or conversion therapy is. The overall consensus is that such efforts are difficult at best. APA recently passed a resolution saying that evidence of success for such efforts is lacking. At the same time, the paper did acknowledge that people of faith are often deeply conflicted by their faith tenets vs. their sexual orientation, and encouraged therapists to walk with their clients through these very real struggles.

The therapists that embrace conservative Christian beliefs are divided between encouraging conversion therapy, despite the difficulties and high failure rates, and an approach that has been termed "faith identity." This relatively new approach suggests focusing on one's faith identity rather than the sexual identity. "I may have this particular sexual orientation, but how do I live out my faith, in spite of it?"

For an evangelical discussion on this matter see: No Straight Shot | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

There is a saying: How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: One, but the light bulb has to what to change.

My point here is in regards to additive behavior. By definition additive behavior can only apply to cognitive behaviors. For the record - science classifies non-cognitive behaviors as instinctive behaviors. In the science that classifies behaviors there are several “lower” classifications of cognitive behaviors. The first being what is called the lowest cognitive level of learning - this is also known as the conditioned response as per Pavlov’s dog. The second is called the higher than lowest cognitive level of learning which is often referred to as rote memorization.

There are all kinds of research into cognitive behaviors related to a conditioned response associated with the release of endorphins or drugs that provide similar effect that result in extremely additive cognitive behavior. I am not aware of research that indicates that any such addiction has been “completely” cured. However, using various behavioral modification techniques individuals have been able to “hold at bay” endorphin or endorphin like addictive behaviors. Part of the problem here lies with what is called the conditioned trigger. Often with additive behaviors the actual conditioned trigger is difficult or impossible to determine and can vary greatly between individuals. Why many insist that there is no way certain or some sexual behavior(s) is additive (have condition triggers) and not others is beyond me.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

There is a saying: How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: One, but the light bulb has to what to change.

My point here is in regards to additive behavior. By definition additive behavior can only apply to cognitive behaviors. For the record - science classifies non-cognitive behaviors as instinctive behaviors. In the science that classifies behaviors there are several “lower” classifications of cognitive behaviors. The first being what is called the lowest cognitive level of learning - this is also known as the conditioned response as per Pavlov’s dog. The second is called the higher than lowest cognitive level of learning which is often referred to as rote memorization.

There are all kinds of research into cognitive behaviors related to a conditioned response associated with the release of endorphins or drugs that provide similar effect that result in extremely additive cognitive behavior. I am not aware of research that indicates that any such addiction has been “completely” cured. However, using various behavioral modification techniques individuals have been able to “hold at bay” endorphin or endorphin like addictive behaviors. Part of the problem here lies with what is called the conditioned trigger. Often with additive behaviors the actual conditioned trigger is difficult or impossible to determine and can vary greatly between individuals. Why many insist that there is no way certain or some sexual behavior(s) is additive (have condition triggers) and not others is beyond me.

The Traveler

Issue is you have to find proof orientation is classified as an addiction. So far not sure I've seen anyone who works in any field connected with it come to the conclusion there's a connection between orientation and addiction.

[Traveler]

Issue is you have to find proof orientation is classified as an addiction. So far not sure I've seen anyone who works in any field connected with it come to the conclusion there's a connection between orientation and addiction.

About 1974 the American Psychiatric Association decided that orientation is not a disorder - therefore not an addiction. This they did without even a single scientific study or any data. At the same time the US government was pressured (or convinced depending on the point of view) to drop all funding of research in any way related to orientation as a disorder or an addiction - despite the fact that orientation meets all the criteria that every other sexual addiction meets. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

So with the threat of loss of accreditation and any chance at any future research funding I doubt you will find any professional willing to take such a risk or if they did, anyone willing to even think to back them. Plus it gives those in favor of such things to ignore what-ever related scientific data there is and smugly say to anyone that dares reference similar scientific studies - that orientation is the great exception that does not apply to any rule what-so-ever. Even to the point of demanding any opposition alone is obligated to provide anything resembling proof.

Therefore my proof is simple logic - something available to anybody with an IQ above room temperature. Orientation is not instinctive or genetic and in the 37 years since 1974 never even been close to being proven to be instinctive or genetic - orientation certainly is not something inherited form parents. If orientation is genetic or instinctive it could only come from a mutation - but that is just as taboo as an addiction. So the only other scientific alternative or possibility is that it is a cognitive behavior and thus an addiction just like every other acquired sexual behavior.

This certainly is not the first time that pseudo-experts have stood up and proclaimed something to be that in reality was not.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

About 1974 the American Psychiatric Association decided that orientation is not a disorder - therefore not an addiction. This they did without even a single scientific study or any data. At the same time the US government was pressured (or convinced depending on the point of view) to drop all funding of research in any way related to orientation as a disorder or an addiction - despite the fact that orientation meets all the criteria that every other sexual addiction meets. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

So with the threat of loss of accreditation and any chance at any future research funding I doubt you will find any professional willing to take such a risk or if they did, anyone willing to even think to back them. Plus it gives those in favor of such things to ignore what-ever related scientific data there is and smugly say to anyone that dares reference similar scientific studies - that orientation is the great exception that does not apply to any rule what-so-ever. Even to the point of demanding any opposition alone is obligated to provide anything resembling proof.

Therefore my proof is simple logic - something available to anybody with an IQ above room temperature. Orientation is not instinctive or genetic and in the 37 years since 1974 never even been close to being proven to be instinctive or genetic - orientation certainly is not something inherited form parents. If orientation is genetic or instinctive it could only come from a mutation - but that is just as taboo as an addiction. So the only other scientific alternative or possibility is that it is a cognitive behavior and thus an addiction just like every other acquired sexual behavior.

This certainly is not the first time that pseudo-experts have stood up and proclaimed something to be that in reality was not.

The Traveler

So all human sexual attraction with out actual actions or behaviors is an addiction? Remember your talking about the attraction, not the behaviors, the body's physical reaction to a stimuli.

Also I'm not sure where you get that it's taboo for mutation to be considered. At the very core definition of mutation homosexuality would certainly seem to fit. There's nothing negative in the term mutation unless it's used to indicate negative.

The act or process of being altered or changed.

An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.

Genetics.

• A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
• The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
• A mutant.

I've never had a problem with it being seen as a mutation because i understand there is no negative implication.

The one thing that might show that addiction is the wrong view is the lack of results in treating it. If it is truly an addiction should not the treatment be almost identical and produce approximately the same results as all other programs used to treat addictions? So far there has been a stunning lack of consistent results, with even those providing the treatment unsure of what a success is. With most addictions the desired end result is clear and the desired outcome is rather black and white, yet this doesn't exist in this case. Being they aren't trying to change a behavior or action the situation takes a different twist. To the best of my knowledge all addiction recovery programs aim at stopping a behavior. Drinking, drugs, smoking, pornography, eating ect. The programs aim at altering what a person does. In this case the person isn't doing anything. No conscious choice is being made, no action being taken. I'm not sure how you completely suppress someones sexuality completely. You can control it yes. you don't have to lust after people, you don't have to pursue sexual relations, but you are talking about all sexuality in a person as an addiction and I'm not sure I've seen a study that even comes close to agreeing that human sexuality is an addiction.

[slamjet]

I've never had a problem with it being seen as a mutation because i understand there is no negative implication.

Let's keep it simple, you're evil :D:D

[Soulsearcher]

Let's keep it simple, you're evil :D:D

I am, i have no problem with that, lol but it's not cause I'm gay, i earned my evil title long before i ever admitted i was gay :)

[slamjet]

I am, i have no problem with that, lol but it's not cause I'm gay, i earned my evil title long before i ever admitted i was gay :)

Yes, I had your gayness in mind (please, jk'ing), but terrorizing your employees is a bigger splotch in my eyes :D:p:D It makes you scary

Anyhoo, I'm just being a smart-alleck. I need to go repent now.

[Soulsearcher]

Yes, I had your gayness in mind (please, jk'ing), but terrorizing your employees is a bigger splotch in my eyes :D:p:D It makes you scary

Anyhoo, I'm just being a smart-alleck. I need to go repent now.

Oddly enough and i find it funny to this day, my employees loved me. I was a bit of a tyrant but at the same time i made it fun.First guy i dated was an employee ( after i transferred to another location) and he said the reason he agreed to give me a chance was i'd already earned his love as his boss and he was willing to see if that could be extended beyond work, he said a lot of my staff felt that loyalty and closeness to me even though i smacked them around, lol some because i smacked them around.

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe workplace abuse of this sort is addictive behavior/attraction...for the perpetrator and the victims? :-)

[Dravin]

Maybe workplace abuse of this sort is addictive behavior/attraction...for the perpetrator and the victims? :-)

Soul "The Stockholm Syndrom" Searcher.

[QuestionableSanity]

Never dealt with many of the gays in my life. Though, I have dealt with SSA in my younger (14-16) years. Most of the urges left after seeing the pained look in my family's eyes when I told them about it. Now to ever think about those old urges, brings a horrid disgust.

[Soulsearcher]

K i do admit I miss having the laugh button for PC and Dravin's posts.

[Traveler]

So all human sexual attraction with out actual actions or behaviors is an addiction? Remember your talking about the attraction, not the behaviors, the body's physical reaction to a stimuli.

Exactly what is described in the conditioned response that includes the release of endorphins. Just as Pavlov’s dog salivated from the turning on of the light (the light being the trigger). The difference is that with Pavlov’s dog endorphins or endorphin like drugs were not involved. Because additions are acquired (learned) and associated with external stimuli (trigger) and are a conditioned response - this applies exactly to what we are talking about. More proof that it is a cognitive response is the very term “attraction”. That implies a cognitive awareness in order to create the response. Since the behavior is 100% based on a cognitive awareness or the behavior will not take place - we have proof that it is acquired and not genetic. (Woops - I forgot orientation is the one and only exception -- NOT!)

Also I'm not sure where you get that it's taboo for mutation to be considered. At the very core definition of mutation homosexuality would certainly seem to fit. There's nothing negative in the term mutation unless it's used to indicate negative.

Because if it is a mutation that gains a hold in the population it will cause the end of our species. If we do not know the cause of the mutation we are in danger of becoming extinct if we cannot avoid it.

I've never had a problem with it being seen as a mutation because i understand there is no negative implication.

Really? What possible benefit is there? If there no quantifiable benefit that can be demonstrated and a possibility that an entire species could be wiped out because of it? What are we thinking in not even making an effort to containing it?

The one thing that might show that addiction is the wrong view is the lack of results in treating it. If it is truly an addiction should not the treatment be almost identical and produce approximately the same results as all other programs used to treat addictions? So far there has been a stunning lack of consistent results, with even those providing the treatment unsure of what a success is. With most addictions the desired end result is clear and the desired outcome is rather black and white, yet this doesn't exist in this case.

You are missing the forest for the trees. No additive behavior is ever cured. What takes place is that they are conditioned to override the additive conditioned trigger. This is a secondary cognitive conditioning that is completely destroyed by a single exception in the secondary conditioning. Are you suggesting that a former reformed heroin addict will never again have any attraction to heroin ever? Hardly and the slightest “let down” completely renews the addiction.

I think your arguments are getting desperate and grabbing for any straw within reach.

Being they aren't trying to change a behavior or action the situation takes a different twist. To the best of my knowledge all addiction recovery programs aim at stopping a behavior. Drinking, drugs, smoking, pornography, eating ect. The programs aim at altering what a person does. In this case the person isn't doing anything. No conscious choice is being made, no action being taken. I'm not sure how you completely suppress someones sexuality completely. You can control it yes. you don't have to lust after people, you don't have to pursue sexual relations, but you are talking about all sexuality in a person as an addiction and I'm not sure I've seen a study that even comes close to agreeing that human sexuality is an addiction.

The best behavioral modification programs associated with addictions do the following:

First - recognizing the problem - If a problem is not recognized the behavior cannot be modified.

Second - overcoming the cognitive trigger.

In essence with sexual attraction we have socially outlawed both. And not only have we outlawed any possible behavior modification we have socially turned on anyone that will even question why and labeled them homophobic.

The Traveler

Edited March 30, 2011 by Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Exactly what is described in the conditioned response that includes the release of endorphins. Just as Pavlov’s dog salivated from the turning on of the light (the light being the trigger). The difference is that with Pavlov’s dog endorphins or endorphin like drugs were not involved. Because additions are acquired (learned) and associated with external stimuli (trigger) and are a conditioned response - this applies exactly to what we are talking about. More proof that it is a cognitive response is the very term “attraction”. That implies a cognitive awareness in order to create the response. Since the behavior is 100% based on a cognitive awareness or the behavior will not take place - we have proof that it is acquired and not genetic. (Woops - I forgot orientation is the one and only exception -- NOT!)

Because if it is a mutation that gains a hold in the population it will cause the end of our species. If we do not know the cause of the mutation we are in danger of becoming extinct if we cannot avoid it.

Really? What possible benefit is there? If there no quantifiable benefit that can be demonstrated and a possibility that an entire species could be wiped out because of it? What are we thinking in not even making an effort to containing it?

You are missing the forest for the trees. No additive behavior is ever cured. What takes place is that they are conditioned to override the additive conditioned trigger. This is a secondary cognitive conditioning that is completely destroyed by a single exception in the secondary conditioning. Are you suggesting that a former reformed heroin addict will never again have any attraction to heroin ever? Hardly and the slightest “let down” completely renews the addiction.

I think your arguments are getting desperate and grabbing for any straw within reach.

First - recognizing the problem

Second - overcoming the cognitive trigger.

In essence with sexual attraction we have socially outlawed both. And not only have we outlawed any possible behavior modification we have socially turned on anyone that will even question why and labeled them homophobic.

The Traveler

So you are stating all human sexuality is learned and an addiction?

[Traveler]

So you are stating all human sexuality is learned and an addiction?

Without questioned sexuality is acquired (learned) - I say this because many do not understand that cognitive behaviors are learned but they do understand acquired - other examples are acquired fears. Sexual behavior is very dependent on the society of the individual that is learning cognitive sexual behaviors.

As to if such is an addition depends on if an individual has the will capable of both short term and long term ability to override the initial behavioral trigger - which BTW is part of the scientific defination of intelligence and ability o learn. Thus by defination an addicted individual wthin a society - is by defination less intelligent.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Without questioned sexuality is acquired (learned) - I say this because many do not understand that cognitive behaviors are learned but they do understand acquired - other examples are acquired fears. Sexual behavior is very dependent on the society of the individual that is learning cognitive behaviors.

As to if such is an addition depends on if an individual has the will capable of both short term and long term ability to override the initial behavioral trigger - which BTW is part of the scientific defination of intelligence and ability o learn. Thus by defination an addicted individual wthin a society - is by defination less intelligent.

The Traveler

I'm very interested in reading about this, can you provide the material to back it up please? Being most homosexuals come directly from straight families in which there is no homosexual influence what so ever as well no mention of it even being an option where do they learn or acquire it? Also would like the research showing a male being attracted (again no action what so ever, just simple base attraction) has been defined an addiction. You are stating that there is no biological factor built in that governs sexuality at all, which i find interesting, the drive to mate and all sexual desires are learned and none of it is hard wired into human beings. I'd love to read the research on this when you can post it.

[carlimac]

Being most homosexuals come directly from straight families in which there is no homosexual influence what so ever as well no mention of it even being an option where do they learn or acquire it?

School, society, media, the guy down the street who introduces him, the jock girl who has learned it from others like her. It's encouraged in the most subtle as well as the most blatant of ways. It's everywhere!

I've noticed something very interesting. I've lived in a town now less than a year where the socioeconomic level is quite a bit lower than where I lived before. It's very rural. Lots of farmers and cowboys. I have only noticed one obviously gay man (my hairdresser- who did a very good job by the way) in about 9 months of living here. My kids knew of plenty of gay kids in their high schools before. Now they don't know of any.

So if this homosexuality is totally random and strikes evenly across all societies, why wouldn't we be seeing it more in this city we live in? I think it's because it's not talked about as much, not made a big deal of, not seen as something cool or glorified or encouraged at all. Manliness and macho are the trend. And the girls are super feminine. (Over the top if you ask me. WHERE did they get the idea that all that make-up is attractive?) There are some athletic girls and tough cowgirl types. But they aren't lesbians. They are known to like boys, There are some boys who are a bit more effeminate than others. One in my ward is such a cute boy. He's autistic and a bit feminine in his actions. He gets a pass due to his autism.

So my assumption is that there is a huge environmental/societal factor involved. Not in every case. Some kids are known to have hormonal imbalances that cause them to act different that the majority of their gender. Some are that way ...just because- who knows why? But even those (my cousin was one and I can immediately think of at least 3-4 others) grow up to marry and have families and fulfill in every way their gender role as expected.

If homosexuality is indeed a mutation, it shouldn't be that hard for scientists to figure out. They've mapped the whole human genome and haven't come up with anything that suggests that there is a genetic link to homosexuality.

[The_Phoenix]

Justifying any sin because one was born a certain way is not God's way. We are the children of God, but to remain his children requires us to learn to be like Him. We are not justified in using our genetics as an excuse to do our own thing.

Amen, as a heterosexual man, I am by nature attracted to any woman who is beautiful to me. If I surrendered to the natural man I would seek them out. If I embrace the Spiritual man, even if a struggle, I will do what is right. I may not be able to control how I feel or what temptations I have, but I can control what I do and how I act.

[slamjet]

I'm getting flashbacks of being on my mission and teaching a first when the guy told us he was gay. My usually know-it-all companion all of the sudden turned to me for help when all I wanted was to jump out the window because his fat, and I mean FAT cat all of the sudden became enamored with me.

Ah, the memories.

[Soulsearcher]

School, society, media, the guy down the street who introduces him, the jock girl who has learned it from others like her. It's encouraged in the most subtle as well as the most blatant of ways. It's everywhere!

I've noticed something very interesting. I've lived in a town now less than a year where the socioeconomic level is quite a bit lower than where I lived before. It's very rural. Lots of farmers and cowboys. I have only noticed one obviously gay man (my hairdresser- who did a very good job by the way) in about 9 months of living here. My kids knew of plenty of gay kids in their high schools before. Now they don't know of any.

So if this homosexuality is totally random and strikes evenly across all societies, why wouldn't we be seeing it more in this city we live in? I think it's because it's not talked about as much, not made a big deal of, not seen as something cool or glorified or encouraged at all. Manliness and macho are the trend. And the girls are super feminine. (Over the top if you ask me. WHERE did they get the idea that all that make-up is attractive?) There are some athletic girls and tough cowgirl types. But they aren't lesbians. They are known to like boys, There are some boys who are a bit more effeminate than others. One in my ward is such a cute boy. He's autistic and a bit feminine in his actions. He gets a pass due to his autism.

So my assumption is that there is a huge environmental/societal factor involved. Not in every case. Some kids are known to have hormonal imbalances that cause them to act different that the majority of their gender. Some are that way ...just because- who knows why? But even those (my cousin was one and I can immediately think of at least 3-4 others) grow up to marry and have families and fulfill in every way their gender role as expected.

If homosexuality is indeed a mutation, it shouldn't be that hard for scientists to figure out. They've mapped the whole human genome and haven't come up with anything that suggests that there is a genetic link to homosexuality.

it's every where now.....20 years ago or so it wasn't. you have to remember you are seeing more instances now, but it doesn't explain the large numbers already in existence from before it became more common place in the media. A lot of the vocal ones are from a time when it was still taboo and it wasn't any where around them. I've met more like me who had no clue what gay or fag or homo meant, but knew who they were attracted to and didn't know why. Talking to more people in my age group it doesn't fit with your answer. Also depending on the culture in the town you described if could very much more be a case of not being willing to come out in a more traditional social culture. One thing to remember is as much as there seems to be a much bigger public showing of gays, a vast number of them are still in hiding out of fear of the reactions of others. You'd be surprised how far people will go to hide.

As for no suggestions there is a genetic link, there have been plenty. The problem with any studies is shown by some of you and travlers comments. Terms like whiners, or putting down people who produce results, but you don't like their results. Both sides do it, and it's why there's never going to be a meet in the middle place. Each side dismisses everything the other side says creating more animosity.

The thing is while i agree or disagree with if it's sinful or not, i do fully accept the stance for members who want to remain with in the church. I don't expect the the church or members to change their stance on what they want to believe about the behavior. The fact the church it's self refuses to comment on the origin of the attractions and won't dismiss the possibility of it being biological should say enough. Some one on another thread was commenting of faith and knowledge.

I know that God lives. Is it a statement of fact? That's not what the definition of knowledge is. So if someone is asked "do you know that God lives?" and they say "yes", then yes, they know it. If someone is asked "do you have a scientific factual basis for this belief", they would have to say "no." If they are asked "how do you know?" if they answer "because my life experiences and/or study of the subject of God has taught me that he does live", then this is in the scope of the definition of knowledge.

If that's the standard of proof for knowledge of God, knowing a truth, isn't it fair to accept the same answers from others? Instead of arguing with the people going through it, telling them all they have experienced is wrong and they don't know what they are talking about, why not just say "ok, so here's the next step for you if you want to remain in the church"? Spending all your time telling them they are confused or wrong or everything they've gone through and experienced doesn't matter cause you know better really doesn't seem accurate or conducive to your end goals.

[Traveler]

I'm very interested in reading about this, can you provide the material to back it up please? Being most homosexuals come directly from straight families in which there is no homosexual influence what so ever as well no mention of it even being an option where do they learn or acquire it? Also would like the research showing a male being attracted (again no action what so ever, just simple base attraction) has been defined an addiction. You are stating that there is no biological factor built in that governs sexuality at all, which i find interesting, the drive to mate and all sexual desires are learned and none of it is hard wired into human beings. I'd love to read the research on this when you can post it.

As we have discussed earlier any research directly into human sexual behavior that is related at all to same sex attractions will never be funded or published. However, there are rather interesting studies of great apes being bred in captivity. In all studies I have ever seen - mating is documented as a "learned skill" and the best mating results come from the opportunity to "grow" up in a social structure where mating is occurring. Google it my friend and see if you find something different.

In my youth I worked at a dog kennel for a summer. The owner told me that the secret to breeding dogs is to place them early as puppies in an environment where they will learn from other dogs breading.

The Traveler