Do I have to believe this to convert?

[yorkiebeebs]

"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.''

"Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God.... " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

Is it essential for me to believe this to be LDS?

[pam]

I think this whole concept is a difficult one not only for non LDS but LDS as well.

Personally, I don't think you have to necessarily believe or have a testimony of it to be LDS.

[Corvus]

Yorkie,

The way I look at it, is why wouldn't God want us to know what He knows? To become as he is? If He is ultimate goodness and ultimate right, why wouldn't he want us to be as He is? As a former Catholic, I was taught that God is (and Christ is an example) that everything we should strive to be. I really don't see any conflict in wanting be as God is. Will being as God is make us gods? Who knows? But trying to be as He is can't be something we should avoid.

I hope this helped. I'm still learning about...well, all of this really.

[pam]

Thanks Corvus. What you stated were my after thoughts. While the whole idea of being a God etc isn't really of upmost importance to our salvation...the idea that we should strive to be as God is would be. That would be a goal worth at least attempting to achieve.

[skippy740]

Let's bring that principle down to the lowest common denominator: God wants us to continue to grow and be like Him. We cannot be saved "in" our sins. We need saving FROM our sins... which brings us closer to living the way God would have us live. The more we live like our Father in Heaven, the closer we are to becoming more like Him.

Everything else is progression from that, IMO.

[Corvus]

Yorkie,

If you don't mind, might I ask what faith background you're coming from?

[yorkiebeebs]

Striving to be like God isn't my problem. It's becoming a god and being equal to Jesus Christ that is the problem. I believe we should all strive to be like Him.

[Jenamarie]

Striving to be like God isn't my problem. It's becoming a god and being equal to Jesus Christ that is the problem. I believe we should all strive to be like Him.

Romans 8:16-17

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we ar ethe children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

(bolding added by me)

joint (joint)

adj.

1. Shared by or common to two or more: our joint presence; a joint income-tax return.

2. Sharing with another or others: a joint tenant.

3. Formed or characterized by cooperation or united action: joint military maneuvers.

4. Involving both houses of a legislature: a joint session of Congress.

5. Law Regarded as one legal body; united in identity of interest or liability.

6. Mathematics Involving two or more variables.

heir (âr)

n.

1. A person who inherits or is entitled by law or by the terms of a will to inherit the estate of another.

2. A person who succeeds or is in line to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office.

3. One who receives or is expected to receive a heritage, as of ideas, from a predecessor.

We are Children of God. As children, we have the ability to "grow up" to be like our parents. We will never, NEVER, usurp them though. My now being an adult, and "being like" my mother, and being able to hold a job, have children, own a home, etc. etc. in no way puts me in a position over her. Nor am I completely equal with her. She is, was, and always will be my mother, and I still owe my life and my ability to do those things to HER guidance and teaching. But she hasn't kept me or my siblings down in a place of complete subservience either.

We are joint-heirs with Christ. Think about what the Father gave to the Son. We can be heirs to that too. :)

[yorkiebeebs]

Yorkie,

If you don't mind, might I ask what faith background you're coming from?

In my journey I've been to several different protestant churches as well as Roman Catholic.

[Guest mormonmusic]

On any of the Church stuff in the baptismal interview, the word "believe" means "think it might be true". I don't know about half the stuff the Church teaches, but I recognize the limits on my personal wisdom and leave myself open to the fact it might be true. That's good enough for me to answer affirmatively to the baptismal interview questions.

There is no question that says "do you believe you will become a god?". So, you're safe.

[beefche]

In my own opinion, no, you don't need to believe that to be a member. However, I do believe that you need to have a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and of modern day prophets (namely the First Presidency and Quorum of 12).

As such, there are doctrines that I don't understand, let alone have a "testimony" of. I do believe that this church is the only true and living church on the earth and that God, Himself, is the Head of this Church. I believe that anything He reveals is truth and that I am a mere child and will not understand all things. And so, some things the church teaches as doctrine, I accept as true although I do understand it or may even feel a level of disagreement. I will not speak out against any doctrines nor do I teach anything beyond what the church authorizes us to teach.

So, long answer is no, you don't have to believe it, but don't rule out the possibility that the Lord knows more than us and that He has chosen this church as His vehicle to reveal truth and perform necessary and vital ordinances for us to live with Him and be like Him.

[Wingnut]

Since the statement isn't doctrine and isn't taught as such, no, you don't have to believe it.

[jayanna]

Since the statement isn't doctrine and isn't taught as such, no, you don't have to believe it.

oh, don't be mad at me wingnut, but I think it is...there is a chapter in the Gospel Principles book, Ch. 47 Exaltation If you will read it, I think it might help...

source: Gospel Principles Chapter 47: Exaltation

Also, yorkie, look it up in the Bible Dictionary if you have one, or on the one at lds.org, and possibly the topical guide to look for more places to study about it. I'm pretty sure it is mentioned in the Bible several times.

yorkie, do you have missionaries that visit you? Perhaps you should ask them about it, or maybe the gospel principles teacher.

No, it is not in the baptismal interview, so technically you can be a member without confessing a belief in this doctrine. It is one that I had a problem with at first as well.

This is how I see it now. When I go to my parents house, I still respect them and honor them and follow their wishes, but when I go back to my house I see that I have everything that they have...I have furniture, appliances, food, cleaning supplies, children, a spouse, responsibilities to maintain it, etc. That does not mean that my parents stop being my parents, and it does not mean that I have stopped being their child, I will always be their child, I have just grown up.

The fact that He wants us to call Him our Heavenly Father shows that He is a parent, and someday we will grow up. This, like other important principles that you will be learning, should be searched, pondered and prayed about. Understanding might come at a much later date.

[tubaloth]

Like it has been said. It depends on how you look at it.

If I look at the plan of salvation as a growing process. (I am here to be tested). What is my ultimate Goal? To return to be with Heavenly Father (and Jesus Christ). The point of that is to gain Eternal Life.

The reason its called Eternal Life is because God is Eternal. We are striving to gain the Life God has.

How can we be With God, and Not be like God?

Once we gain Exaltation, how are we any different then God?

That part to me isn't hard to believe. The Whole point of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is to overcome all Sin, and Weakness. If I can't become like God, then the Atonement is lacking in its it power to overcome call. This is what Joseph Smith was trying to teach. Using the full power of the Atonement we learn to be like God, he means in our choices, in how we view others (love others) its how view ourselves. We want to become more God like.

If we look at this statement as replacing God. That I have no need for My Heavenly Father any more. I think that is a false view of the statement. Heavenly Father is always going to be our Father. Jesus Christ is always going to be our Savior. Just because we have all power and are Like God, does not mean we don't need or want our Heavenly Father. There might be a time were we don't need Him as much as we do know. But the relationship with our Father and with Jesus Christ well never change.

Then again our Human/mortal mines can't comprehend this. Really all we can say is what Jesus taught.

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you believe that scripture?

[rameumptom]

Some members view it this way:

As man is God (Jesus) once was. As God (Jesus) now is, man may become.

If you can accept that Christ was once mortal, and that he wants us to become as he is, then you are well on your way to becoming LDS.

[Onii]

Jenamarie I like what you are saying

[jdf135]

I don't think you NEED to believe this but I think you would be missing a central message of the gospel that might bring you hope and joy. I do not completely understand the concept of eternal progression but it is an essential doctrine. That is why we are here: to progress. To what degree we will progress I do not think anyone can comprehend. In section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants the various glories we can experience are described as "surpassing all understanding." That suggests we cannot completely understand what our Father in Heaven has for those that love and strive to serve him. I believe that to receive all that our father has means all knowledge and subsequently all power but I don't really understand it all. We just can't. If you have not yet joined the church, confirm your testimony of the Saviour, Joseph Smith and the restoration and then seek for truth from the spirit. Realize, however, that eternal progress is a positive and important belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints.

Best wishes.

[Wingnut]

oh, don't be mad at me wingnut, but I think it is...there is a chapter in the Gospel Principles book, Ch. 47 Exaltation If you will read it, I think it might help...

source: Gospel Principles Chapter 47: Exaltation

I didn't say that concept wasn't doctrinal. I said that the statement isn't doctrinal. I stand by that.

[Blackmarch]

"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.''

"Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God.... " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

Is it essential for me to believe this to be LDS?

no.

What is needed is

1. Believeing and accepting Christ as our only savior and redeemer.

2. Accepting that God and Christ restored the his church and authority to Joseph smith and that that has continued thruogh the church to this day, and that God's authority rests in that church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.)

3. Willingness to repent of sins, To take upon you Christ's name (and hence represent him), and willing to do God's will (from personal revelation, to modern prophets and other leaders as well as ancient ones).

THis is all I can really think of in the simplest of explanations, everything thats required hinges on these 3 things.

whether you know or don't know whether man can become such or not, is not necessary.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Blackmarch

[jlf9999]

Some folks put a lot of pressure on themselves to understand or believe everything up front as if there was a test at the end. There is not. A testimony is developed. You develop it by living the principles of the gospel one at a time. May I suggest that once you have a testimony of one thing you will come to sense when the Holy Spirit is talking to you and your study thereafter will be easier. Progress comes quickly.

Once you experience that sensation you will recognize that you are familiar with it. That is how some folks can say they "know" something after having just experienced it for the first time. It is the Holy Spirit and we are familiar with it from birth. Actually from before we were born on earth. I suggest you are recognizing an old friend - that perfect relationship that has existed since before the earth was made. Once you recognize and understand that, you can never deny it. It makes everything that comes after that so much the easier. The only caveat is that you can't live a worldly life and a holy one at the same time. To keep the growth going you have to live by Christ's principles. Otherwise you stagnate.

This is such a profound relationship that some folks who slow way down or stop go through a type of with drawl or sense of loss. Once you know it you will never be the same. For those who fall away, their spirit recognizes the absence of the Holy Ghost and they mourn its the loss. You could say the they grieve.

That is kind of the long way around saying no you do not have to believe everything. Everything comes in its own time. This is a process not an

event. Lots of LDS people have trouble with one thing or another just as believers in traditional Christianity have trouble with some of the things they are taught. Understanding and acceptance comes with time and effort.

Edited April 8, 2011 by jlf9999
clarity

[moosepad]

I had the same doubts after I was baptized and in young women's we learned the blessing of the worthy priesthood holders was becoming gods. After I was almost shocked. But as a prayed on it I have my own personal clarity. Do I have believe if we are worthy we will create our own universe and become Gods and Goddesses? Not necessarily. I don't think that is what is meant when it is said we are able to become gods. Exaltation to me, means becoming just like our Heavenly Father, possessing the power, love and the glory. We become joint-heirs to his vast kingdom. We will not know of our futures until death and we are capable of knowing all things. I don't think "becoming a god" should a main goal, but should be considered when following the commandments because being like Christ is essential.

[Blackmarch]

I had the same doubts after I was baptized and in young women's we learned the blessing of the worthy priesthood holders was becoming gods. After I was almost shocked. But as a prayed on it I have my own personal clarity. Do I have believe if we are worthy we will create our own universe and become Gods and Goddesses? Not necessarily. I don't think that is what is meant when it is said we are able to become gods. Exaltation to me, means becoming just like our Heavenly Father, possessing the power, love and the glory. We become joint-heirs to his vast kingdom. We will not know of our futures until death and we are capable of knowing all things. I don't think "becoming a god" should a main goal, but should be considered when following the commandments because being like Christ is essential.

This nails the issue on the head, and which certain critics try to shift the focus from.

Becoming godlike, and gaining the ability to create worlds and etc (supposing that it means exactly as we presume it to mean, whether it be universes, planets or states of being) are really potential blessings, but are not the reason for being loyal to the gospel and at least for me it would not matter one way or the other on how true or false that is.

IMO I also don't think we will be forced into doing something we are not ready for or do not want to do.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Blackmarch

[arvoreen73]

Becoming godlike, and gaining the ability to create worlds and etc (supposing that it means exactly as we presume it to mean, whether it be universes, planets or states of being) are really potential blessings, but are not the reason for being loyal to the gospel and at least for me it would not matter one way or the other on how true or false that is.

wait what? are you saying when we die we can create our own worlds? never heard of that, then again im not Mormon

[Jason_J]

wait what? are you saying when we die we can create our own worlds? never heard of that, then again im not Mormon

Yes, it has been taught that, by participating in the Divine life, we can live the life that God lives, through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It has been taught that this includes the possibility of creating worlds. God will still be our God, and always will be, and Christ will always be our Savior.

I find this statement from the 4th century AD, from the Jewish Talmud, quite interesting, showing that this belief that we may have the ability to create worlds given to us by God didn't just originate in the mind of Joseph Smith in the 1800s:

" The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of elixir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever. . . . And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the World to Come the Ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds. The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come. . . . To all the pious the Holy One, blessed be He, will give a sign and a part in the goodly reward, and everlasting renown, glory and greatness and praise, a crown encompassed in holiness, and royalty, equal to those of all the pious in the World to Come. The sign will be the cup of life which the Holy One, blessed be He, will give to the Messiah and to the pious in the Future to Come.

Midrash Alpha beta diRabbi Akiba BhM 3:32"

Very fascinating.

[jlf9999]

wait what? are you saying when we die we can create our own worlds? never heard of that, then again im not Mormon

Theosis is the Greek term but actually the LDS theological belief is that Eternal Life or exaltation, a similar but unrelated term, is to have one's spouse sealed to them forever and as a married couple be able to bring forth new spirit life. The couple continue the parenting role bringing up their spirit children in perfection. Eventually these spirit off spring grow to a point where they have to learn about sin, pain, suffering and be allowed to make decisions on their own which can't be done in the perfection of a heavenly home. They require a separate sphere or Earth. In other words, those who achieve this state of godhood (notice the small g), will follow the pattern set by God the Father.

Another misconception about LDS theology which has led to confusion is the difference between salvation and exaltation. The first, salvation, is what Christ provided for all. It is resurrection and the taking up of a perfected body. Exaltation is different. It requires people to do things. It is not a free gift such as is salvation. That is what temples are for. They provide for the continuing education of members in good standing and provide a holy place where the saving ordinances can be performed by people who have the authority to perform them. These ordinannces are available for both livng and the dead who never had the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel while living. That is why we do genealogy, to find our dead family members and perform this work on thier behalf. Eventually, every person who has ever lived will have that opportunity. Much of it will occur during Christ's thousand year reign on earth especailly for those for whom there is no Earthly record.

Edited June 30, 2011 by jlf9999