If you knew before marriage your dating partner was incapable of physical intimacy would you marry?

[Guest mormonmusic]

With the frequency of intimacy problems we hear about in the advice thread, I wanted to ask a hypothetical question for general discussion. If you knew with TOTAL CERTAINTY that the person you were dating was incapable of consummating their marriage, and had no idea when or if that problem would ever be overcome, would you still marry that person if all other variables appeared to be OK with the person and you loved them?

I know this sounds way hypothetical, but I have some follow up questions after I hear your reactions.

For me personally, I think I would probably NOT have done it, as ending the sexual wasteland is one of the drivers (and NOT the only one) for chaste single men to get married in the Church. What would you do in that situation, as a young single adult?

Edited April 8, 2011 by mormonmusic

[PrinceofLight2000]

I'd get married. Unlike most guys, I've never cared all that much about sex. Having someone to cuddle with is good enough for me.

Gotta keep eternity in mind.

[Bini]

No, I wouldn't.

I'm a very physical person and could not be in a marriage that was void of physical intimacy.

[PrinceofLight2000]

No, I wouldn't.

I'm a very physical person and could not be in a marriage that was void of physical intimacy.

Does physical intimacy only consist of sexual relations?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Does physical intimacy only consist of sexual relations?

For the purpose of this discussion, yes.

[estradling75]

I'd say no I would not

[dahlia]

No, I wouldn't. Thinking back to when I was a young woman or in my current situation as a long time widow looking to get married before I drop dead, no. Physical intimacy is important to me.

[Suzie]

I'd get married. Unlike most guys, I've never cared all that much about sex. Having someone to cuddle with is good enough for me.

Gotta keep eternity in mind.

Are you married or have you been married before?

[Suzie]

With the frequency of intimacy problems we hear about in the advice thread, I wanted to ask a hypothetical question for general discussion. If you knew with TOTAL CERTAINTY that the person you were dating was incapable of consummating their marriage, and had no idea when or if that problem would ever be overcome, would you still marry that person if all other variables appeared to be OK with the person and you loved them?

I know this sounds way hypothetical, but I have some follow up questions after I hear your reactions.

For me personally, I think I would probably NOT have done it, as ending the sexual wasteland is one of the drivers (and NOT the only one) for chaste single men to get married in the Church. What would you do in that situation, as a young single adult?

Probably not. The reason I say probably is because I grew up in the Church so my husband was my "first and only". Having experience now what sex is, I know I couldn't however back then when I didn't experience sex, probably my decision would have been different, I don't know.

Our bodies change once you experience sex (your body craves for it) so maybe for some people who never experienced sex isn't a big deal.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Are you married or have you been married before?

I have not.

[Saldrin]

With the frequency of intimacy problems we hear about in the advice thread, I wanted to ask a hypothetical question for general discussion. If you knew with TOTAL CERTAINTY that the person you were dating was incapable of consummating their marriage, and had no idea when or if that problem would ever be overcome, would you still marry that person if all other variables appeared to be OK with the person and you loved them?

I know this sounds way hypothetical, but I have some follow up questions after I hear your reactions.

For me personally, I think I would probably NOT have done it, as ending the sexual wasteland is one of the drivers (and NOT the only one) for chaste single men to get married in the Church. What would you do in that situation, as a young single adult?

My life isn't about sex if i loved the right person and it would be a good marriage i could make that sacrifice.

[Blocky]

If they simple couldn't have sex, then I think I'd seriously consider marriage still. If they were unable to participate in any major sexual activity (other than intercourse) while being turned on, then probably not.

[Guest]

I would. If my husband was a paraplegic when I met him, I would still marry the dude. If my husband had ED, I still would. If my husband had AIDS I still would.

I didn't marry the dude for the sex. I married him for everything else. You can have intimacy without the sex.

[jayanna]

Yes, he is my everything.

We have been threatened with this sort of an issue with my health on occasion. He has never been worried.

I have always wanted to have children with him, but can't, and we knew it before marriage, while we were dating in fact.

I asked him once when I had 'baby fever', "Doesn't it bother you that we can't have little ones?"

"Don't worry about that," he said, "We'll have plenty of family later...you'll be healed" He was talking about this, taught in the Latter-Day Saint Woman: "President Brigham Young comforted those childless women who had been faithful to their temple covenants, saying: “Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will be mothers of nations. … Be faithful, and if you are not blest with children in this time, you will be hereafter” (in Deseret News [Weekly], 28 Nov. 1860, 306). The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A Lesson 14: The Latter-day Saint Woman

What I do know is that we are best friends, and, yes, someday I will be healed...though I think I will still have to catch my breath when he kisses me.

[Guest mormonmusic]

OK, I thought we'd get mixed responses on this question.

Now, for my follow-up question.

For the people who have high needs for full-blown sexual experience, there is a conundrum in the Church. For these people, being able to judge whether a candidate partner can meet this need IS important to the marriage decision -- or else you find yourself in the position I was for a long time. Your marriage, your sexual purity, your inner peace, your ability to have children, even your membership in the Chruch -- all at risk because you chose not to have intercourse before marriage. So, you are left having to make a marriage decision, without knowing much about your spouse's ability in this regard.

Is there a way of filling the gap in your knowledge of a candidate spouse's ability to meet this need, that preserves your righteousness at the same time and keeps you right before God? Particularly when both people are free of sex-experience before marriage?

I realize this is touchy, as the Law of Chastity is inviolate, but the thought has occured to me over and over again. When my children get married, I'll be wondering if the same problem will happen to them as happened to myself and others on this discussion forum -- it comes up a lot here. As much as I respect obedience to commandments, and see the merits of the law of chastity, the fact that we have to go into marriage blind on this issue disturbs me. And it can lead to exactly the kind of hardship the Church seeks to avoid -- marriage breakups, infidelity, etcetera.

So, how can you fill this knowledge gap when the Law of Chastity forbids premarital relations? Some will say "Pray about it", but my wife and I both did that. She felt totally right about it, and I didn't get an answer one way or the other after sustained and regular thinking, prayer and fasting, so at 28, and recognizing God wants us to make our own decisions when He is silent, and loving my bride, I went ahead with it. And then we ended up with this problem that vexed us for a really long time -- preventable if only I knew beforehand that she had this problem.

How do you fill the knowledge void when the Law of Chastity prevents you from having intercourse before marriage?

Edited April 9, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest SisterofJared]

Well the truth is that many marry with one expectation and end up getting something different. It's a pain. But it is part of the mortal state, to have to overcome obstacles. For a man it's much easier... because both parties should be willing to fill the needs of their partner, a a woman who is willing is generally able. But for a woman, if her husband has ED, there is no able. Or very little able. But two loving people can work it out so that needs are met in other ways. Is it as fulfilling? No. But it can be as loving, and frankly that is what sex is ultimately about, an expression of love. If a man is not getting that expression of love, he generally needs to look for other ways to express love. I've heard on Family Radio many times that if a man wants to improve his life in the bedroom, he should help his wife in the kitchen. And this is true. Women are emotionally driven... they need a reason for sex, while men only need a place.( Dr Phil, and totally true.) So being involved with the home, and the kids, and little sweet things you do you can make a woman much more willing to give you what you need. One of the sexiest things my husband does is just put his hand on my back when we walk through the store. It makes me feel like he is protecting me and showing me off... makes me feel cherished. All the little things a man can do to make her feel loved will lead up to the point where a wife is eager to meet his needs.

I do not know your situation.. but I do know women need to feel LOVE or sex is generally not appealing to us. It makes us feel used. The emotional tie in for women is vital to a happy physical relationship.

[Guest mormonmusic]

My question, though, is how do you determine sexual compatibility before marriage, when the law of chastity prevents full sexual relationships?

Edited April 9, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest SisterofJared]

By determining love.... because frankly that's what it's about for women. Sex that is an expression of mutual love by both partners is pretty much always fulfilling because both partners do what it takes to make it so. Sex that is about pleasure for one person or the other, or even both, may be very lacking the love factor and may make one person feel used and unfulfilled. Loving sex does NOT begin in the bedroom. Compatibility then becomes a big factor. Fix the relationship, you fix the sex.

[Guest mormonmusic]

SisterofJared -- while I see your reasoning behind this (and believe it has merit in a wide variety of marriages), I'm talking about situations where the spouse turns out to be incapable of sex (such as chronic vaginismus, for example) , or where the spouse refuses to have sex with the other person, even though they get a lot of love from that spouse, simply because they just don't like it. This happens -- it happens regularly where one spouse simply refuses to do it, even though there is love in the marriage. If you check out the advice forum, there's a lot of it there. It's that situation that I'm focusing on.

Many people above have said that they would not marry their spouse if they knew about this incapability before marriage.

I was in that situation for a long time. My wife admitted that I met her emotional needs very well at different times in our marriage, but her physical problem remained. So, I'm wondering if anyone has given thought to how the would-be bride or groom can go into the marriage knowing what to expect from their spouse, at least, at first. Particularly when the Law of Chastity forbids any significant experimentation before marriage.

I get the feeling this is a hard question in general....

Edited April 9, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Bini]

I still maintain that I would NOT marry someone that was unable to engage in physical intimacy. And that isn't the only criteria I had for myself when dating and potentially selecting a spouse. I also would not date (thus ever marrying) someone with children. My husband knew both these things during our courtship. If something isn't right for you—it isn't right for you.

My question, though, his how do you determine sexual compatibility before marriage, when the law of chastity prevents full sexual relationships?

This question has actually been posed before. I think I even started a thread on this in another forum less than a year ago. But to address this thread, I'll say that you can never determine and or guarantee 100% that people will be sexually compatible, regardless if you were having premarital sex or not. From my own experience, I know that sex can be fantastic all throughout your dating/courtship stage but can shift pace after being married, as it did with my exhusband. I felt there wasn't enough intimacy (emotionally and physically) and he felt indifferent about the whole thing.

The bottomline is, date and court with your eyes wide open the best you can. We all make mistakes, I certainly made my share of them. But once you commit to someone (and your life is not threatened by any form of abuse), you do whatever it takes to strengthen and nourish your relationship with your spouse. If seeking counseling from a therapist will help, then do that, etc etc.

[ryanh]

Prior to ever being married, I probably might have said yes to the original question - if there was a special spark of love there.

Having experienced a marriage that ended after 15 years of difficulty, I say "absolutely not" to the original question. Knowing what I know now, about both myself, and how typical relationships work from copious reading on the subject (attempting to overcome the difficulties), I say that for most people (there are always exceptions), physical intimacy is a critical lubricant for proper functioning of a marriage.

MM - I've posted it on here before, and don't want to recount it right now, but I did get an answer that it was right to marry my ex. It was very clear, and was repeated to me. I don't think that such a answer that "it is right" will preclude extreme sexual dysfunction. Nor does it mean that your spouse won't eventually choose to give up and leave even though Heavenly Father said the union was "right". So, I think in large part, we are left to simply trust that Heavenly Father will warn us (if we are listening) that the choice we are making is not good or right. And, if we have difficulties, it is in part because it was his plan for our growth and development. I look at your 'weak' situation (the decade of extreme difficulty) and see now how it has been made 'strong'. I'd never have wished that on you personally, but I don't doubt that Heavenly Father has consecrated it for your eternal gain. And so it will be for all such marriage difficulties IMO.

[estradling75]

I think while the Church does a good job of talking about the importance of marriage, and the need for marriage. It doesn't do so well on teaching you how to choose a partner. I put choosing a partner as at least the 3rd most important and life changing decision a person will ever make.

Unfortunately to many people meet fall in love (which could be simple hormones if they are not clear on the difference) and assume that is all they need so they get married. Many people forget or ignore the very real and important step of taking it to the Lord. God can see the larger picture, god knows you and the person you are dating better then any one. People need to follow the standard command to study out the problem and take it to the Lord in prayer.

My wife had a vision that I was the one. I got spiritually thrashed until I repented of my desire to get a career going first. And being married has not it been easy, I've had struggles that common to marriages. When those struggle come I can take comfort in the fact that I am on the right path with the right person.

[MrShorty]

Quote Originally Posted by PrinceofLight2000

Does physical intimacy only consist of sexual relations?

For the purpose of this discussion, yes.

I hope it's not too nitpicky, but, for further clarification, does "sexual relations" only mean vaginal intercourse, or are we allowed to include other sexual behaviors in there? Looking back over my life, I see that Dr Chapman's physical touch love language applies to me. Which means not only does intercourse make me feel loved, but so do all the other things like kissing, hugging, cuddling, etc. In that respect, I think I could marry someone with a chronic inability to engage in intercourse, as long as she was willing to a) vailidate my sexuality as normal and important, b) continue to engage in other forms of physical affection, and c) express a willingness to explore our sexuality beyond simple intercourse.

That's spoken from what I know now. I think I could have gotten into a lot of trouble based on what I knew back then. I don't think I knew how important sex was when I was single. I had grown up in the church and been taught all about how sex (at least outside of marriage, but I don't know if that last part got emphasized enough) was dirty, sinful, ugly, etc. I remember many times being taught that sex had little if anything to do with love. "Good girls (and guys) don't" and so on. Nobody really taught how important sex can be to the overall health of a marriage relationship.

As for the "test drive" approach. Looking back, I think one of the major contributors to our sexless marriage was my own inhibitions about talking about sex. I never learned as a young person how to really talk about my sexuality in a safe, healthy, normative way. Most of the discussions I had were condemning of sex, and so I never learned how to talk about my feelings and desires. Now, I think one of the major contributors to our inability to make it better is that I have a very hard time talking about it with my wife in a healthy way. John Gottman says that it is more important how we deal with conflict rather than what the specific complaint is that predicts happiness in marriage. What I think the law of chastity can do for an engaged couple is force them to learn to talk about their sexual desires/expectations/fears with each other. That can set a foundation for talking about sex after marriage that simply "test driving" may not set.

That said, I think part of the issue with the law of chastity is that it is so often taught in a way that gives rise to things like the "good girl syndrome" that Laura Brotherson talks about. I sometimes wonder if our chasitity lessons wouldn't be significantly improved if we included some discussion of things like Dr. Chapman's love languages where we could explain to our youth that some people will find sex an important part of how they give/receive love. Or Dr. Harley's stuf about how sexual fulfillment is a legitimate and often very important "need" for keeping a couple together. Sometimes I think it would help them a lot if we showed them better how sex fits into a healthy marriage rather than harping incessantly on the evils of extra-marital sex.

(I hope some of that makes sense)

[pam]

I'm at a different stage in my life than most on this forum. But now, I would have to say that the physical side of marriage or lack of it would not bother me. For me right now, the important thing would be having a priesthood holder in the home. Have the companionship. Having someone to talk to about a variety of subjects including the gospel of course.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree wholehearted with what estradling75 said above -- I was wholly unprepared to make a marriage decision. I did research and ask people questions, and even read through the preparing for marriage course the Church has. But back in the days of no Internet, there wasn't a lot of information, and my conclusion was that it was a "crap shoot" as to whether your marriage would work out.

I have some random thoughts here. I wonder what people think of them. To try to get some idea of sexual compatibility, what do you think of the following:

1. Figure out how strong your spouse's need for an attractive spouse is. I think there could be a high correlation between their sexual desire, and the extent to which they value attractiveness in their spouse. Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice provides a questionnaire you can use to determine their desire for attractiveness, AND also, how much they value intercourse.

2. Listen for signs that they aren't really too excited about sex, or have pain phobias, even though they may love kissing and all the other stuff single adults do while dating.

3. I'm hearing a common thread now -- that women who are unwilling to use tampons before marriage may well have pain issues that prevent them from enjoying or wanting intercourse over the long-term. Since we're not allowed to go for a test drive before marriage (I'm only kidding with that term, pun intended though), then this may be an indication they have a pain disorder.

4. Listen for their comments about their same sex parent's attitudes toward sex. I've heard twice now (once from Backroads, and from my wife, and one other person who had a pain problem) that their mothers hated intercourse and would rarely do it with their own husbands. Perhaps these attitudes trickle down.

5. When my wife and I saw a doctor about our problem, the doctor (a woman) did a test where she pulled out a dilator and said "I'm going to have to try to insert this". Apparently, this was a test, and my wife had an immediate muscular reaction, the led the doctor to give the diagnoses of severe vaginismus. Is it ethical for a doctor to do such a test before marriage so the bride knows about her problem before accepting an engagement? I expect this question to be controversial. I don't think a groom could necessarily demand it, it's too clinical, but it IS a way a person could find out for themselve whether they have the capability to have intercourse. I personally think its honest and respectful of your intended spouse to at least know that if you know it yourself.

5. One book I read for people preparing for marriage is that a gynecologist can do some stretching to prepare a small person for wedding night intercourse so it's more enjoyable. I've never heard of anyone taking that advice, but I remember reading it. But I don't know how women would feel about that.

6. Many studies cited a common cause of dysfunction is strict religious upbringing. This for me, is the Dark Side of the Law of Chastity. When parents are overly strict and take a negative approach toward intercourse with their children, it can bring on primary vaginismus. All the signs were there when I was dating my wife, and I didn't even realize it. We think this was the major cause of her problem. Also, if they experienced rape or physical abuse, or certain kinds of pelvic pain due infections during their lives -- these can be leading indicators.

7. If a person has been married before, they already know what their needs are, and can share them. I see that as an advantage of marrying someone who has been married before.

Naturally, you have to look at the whole package (no pun intended) when making this kind of decision, but for me, finding ways of assessing the risk that you'll end up in a sexless marriage is something I think every potential groom should do.

For women, I think it's easy to figure out if their husband is capable of having intercourse (maybe not being fertile, or knowing the desired frequency, but at least, knowing he's capable). But for a man to figure out if a woman can, it's a whole different ballgame.

Anyway, those are some thoughts based on scattered reading over the years. I sure wish there was a structured way of knowing beforehand. It can seem incredibly ironic that a bi-product of staying clean before marriage is shouldering even greater risk of an unhappy marriage, particularly if you value intercourse.

Edited April 11, 2011 by mormonmusic