No more mormonism?

[Guest saintish]

(I think this thread may have been posted in a similar flavor but I couldn’t find it in a search)

What would your response be (your feelings, thoughts, actions) if tomorrow you were to find out by some conclusive piece of evidence that there was no way our religion was True? Not that just parts of it weren’t true, the whole thing back to Joseph Smith.

And related to the first, how would the church proceed? Would it cease to exist or realign itself?

(This is obviously hypothetical so please don’t respond “this will never happen” or “I don’t answer hypothetical’s” because you don’t have to answer do you:))

[applepansy]

Considering my witness came from Heavenly Father I can't even imagine it.

[KrazyKay]

I'm with applepansy, I have a hard time imagining it too.

Although a few months ago I had a very interesting dream. In the dream I was in an area that had never heard of Jesus Christ In the dream I had an impression it was another planet, don't know why, lol. But anyway, I remember asking someone if they had heard of Jesus Christ and the woman said no. Then someone said I wasn't allowed to talk like that outside of a specific area and I was pushed into that area. In that area I found a counter/bookshelf type thing. There were some Book of Mormons there - just Book of Mormons, no Bibles. I woke up before I could open one of the Book of Mormons.

Because of that dream, I can imagine a world where there is no churches except the LDS church.

[Backroads]

Being completely hypothetical... I think I would feel pretty darn torn. On one hand, I believe I could still accept I lived a good and moral life. On the other, I think I would feel I... kind of wasted my life. Heck, I could have been a pagan!

As for the Church, I think a good chunk would die off, but I stil think a fair amount of it would exist--worshipping God, doing nice things, just not with all the doctrine.

[Just_A_Guy]

Utah law requires corporations sole (which the Church essentially is, through the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) to indicate, in their Articles of Incorporation, what should happen to the assets if the corporation is wound up. The Corporation of the President's AofI states as follows:

Upon the winding up and dissolution of this corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, foundation or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, or religious and/or scientific purposes and which has established its tex-exempt status under Section 501©(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

[rameumptom]

Not sure how one would "prove" that it was all fake, unless the First Presidency and Twelve came out and admitted it. If that were the case, I would take the best parts of the gospel with me into personal worship. Just because things were made up, does not mean they are wrong, evil, or useless.

Either that or I would become an agnostic/atheist. Because if Mormonism is all false, so is Christianity.

[Guest saintish]

Because if Mormonism is all false, so is Christianity.

this is interesting to me, I can understand that if Christianity is false Mormonism is necessarily so, but why do you think it must be the other way around, I'm not sure that is the case.

[Connie]

this is interesting to me, I can understand that if Christianity is false Mormonism is necessarily so, but why do you think it must be the other way around, I'm not sure that is the case.

Do you consider Mormonism to be another Reformation rather than a Restoration?

[Guest saintish]

no not at all, but if this hypothetical situation were true mormonism wouldn't be a restoration or a reformation.

[slamjet]

I don't play the "what ifs." It never comes to pass, there are way to many senarios and It can drive a person nuts. I stay grounded with the here and now.

[Connie]

I wasn't commenting on your hypothetical situation. I was asking for clarification on why you think that Mormonism would be false if Christianity were rather than the other way around. Such a belief suggests to me that you feel Mormonism is an appendage or reformation of Christianity rather than the Restoration we claim to be. Hence, the desire for clarification.

[rameumptom]

Because your premise was all of Mormonism is false. That would include Jesus Christ, the Bible, etc.

And even if you didn't mean that part, then I still would be agnostic/atheist. Why? Because there are many problems with Christianity and the Bible. Without Mormonism to explain and fix the problems of Christianity, it just falters too completely.

Without Mormonism, we do not have the concept of the Holy Ghost guiding us into a witness of the truth. So, I couldn't use that to retain/gain a testimony of Jesus or the Bible.

Science and history would destroy the credibility of much of the Bible. There would be no second witness (Book of Mormon) to the Bible or Jesus' resurrection. Nor would there be living witnesses. Essentially, Nietzsche would be right, and God would be dead - if he ever existed at all.

[Guest saintish]

i don't play the "what ifs." it never comes to pass, there are way to many senarios and it can drive a person nuts. I stay grounded with the here and now.

(this is obviously hypothetical so please don’t respond “this will never happen” or “i don’t answer hypothetical’s” because you don’t have to answer do you)

see above

[Guest saintish]

I wasn't commenting on your hypothetical situation. I was asking for clarification on why you think that Mormonism would be false if Christianity were rather than the other way around. Such a belief suggests to me that you feel Mormonism is an appendage or reformation of Christianity rather than the Restoration we claim to be. Hence, the desire for clarification.

I believe that it is a restoration and i see your confusion, all i am saying is that if mormonism were false it would not mean that all of christianity would have to be.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Some would say it has been proven false, the whole thing, back to Joseph Smith. That "some" would be a whole lot of those who don't believe in the LDS faith (of course, I'm part of that camp). As for how the church might proceed in such a situation: I think you are already doing what you would do.

What I've wondered is this: what if a modern prophet made an announcement that it was all false, step down and called others to follow him?

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

I believe that it is a restoration and i see your confusion, all i am saying is that if mormonism were false it would not mean that all of christianity would have to be.

in other words, what you thought was false turned out not to be, and what you thought was a restoration wasn't. Would that be a decent summary of the dilemma you would find yourself in, if today you felt you saw irrefutable proof that Mormonism was false?

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

... Essentially, Nietzsche would be right, and God would be dead - if he ever existed at all.

Being a Nihilist might be the only worthwhile thing to do if Christ did not rise.

[Guest saintish]

in other words, what you thought was false turned out not to be, and what you thought was a restoration wasn't. Would that be a decent summary of the dilemma you would find yourself in, if today you felt you saw irrefutable proof that Mormonism was false?

Not nessisarily, If mormonism were proven not to be true, it would be entirely possible that christianity is also not true (or any religion for that matter) I wonder where people would fall? would they land on the Christian side or on the atheist / agnostic side?

[Guest saintish]

Being a Nihilist might be the only worthwhile thing to do if Christ did not rise.

If i thought for a second Christ didn't rise I would be completly comfortable being a Noahide, even if there were no G_d it is still a pretty good set of morals.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

This is an interesting question because the credibility of the LDS hangs by a thread. Its founder claims to have been visited by an angel who revealed a set of golden plates on which was written in Egyptian an account of an ancient civilization here on the American continent. So much has been waged on the credibility of one man telling the truth. He was either genuine or he perpetrated one of the greatest frauds in the history of Christianity.

I can hardly conceal my disbelief in the claims of Joseph Smith, but in answer to the question, there is historical precident for this scale of disillusionment. William Miller was a 19th century pastor who came up with a prediction of when Christ would return which led up to the infamous Great Disappointment. The Millerites were devastated but soon found themselves following new leadership (Ellen G. White) and formed what today is called the Seventh Day Adventist church.

What I don't believe is that any event of the standard of proof paramount to Jesus not returning and rapturing all Christians could ever surface to undo the LDS church. What evidence could ever be subpoenad that could prove beyond hope of refutation that Joseph Smith was a fraud? So I think we're going to have the Mormons sticking around for a long time.

With their Jello.

And their casseroles.

Am I getting hungry?

[Canuck Mormon]

If it were proven false, I would have a lot more free time. Instead of spending 3 hours in church, I would be on the golf course, or spending time outdoors with my family. I might have a drink or two during the week. Other than that, my life wouldn't change much. It's a good, sensible way to live anyway. Why change it dramatically?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

That will fly until your wife finds a new religion and demands you find it too. We married men will never be free!

[Dravin]

(I think this thread may have been posted in a similar flavor but I couldn’t find it in a search)

What would your response be (your feelings, thoughts, actions) if tomorrow you were to find out by some conclusive piece of evidence that there was no way our religion was True? Not that just parts of it weren’t true, the whole thing back to Joseph Smith.

And related to the first, how would the church proceed? Would it cease to exist or realign itself?

(This is obviously hypothetical so please don’t respond “this will never happen” or “I don’t answer hypothetical’s” because you don’t have to answer do you:))

Well if I found it I'm not sure it'd effect the whole Church, anymore then when someone finds out something about Church history and feels they've found conclusive evidence it's all false. If this evidence was so well known and convinced everyone then the Church would fall apart. I'm not sure realignment is a practical possibility due to the size of the Church and the effect the leadership of the Church having to go, "Yep, all a sham, so we're just gonna side step over here you see..." would have. If a Church has been teaching me falsehoods since I was a child I'm not sure why I'd start having confidence it'll do things the right way now.

Edit: On the personal level, if I came to disbelieve there is a strong inclination to say I'd become agnostic or atheist. The same mechanism that allowed me to know of the Book of Mormon's truth are the same ones that let me know of the Bible's truth. Personal revelation would be dead as a truth finding mechanism as it would have been proven how unreliable it is, which would be a problem for more religions than just Christianity.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Origen]

Looking at another religion that is very similar to the LDS in some ways might answer your question.

I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. Like the LDS church, the witnesses believe that a group of men (the Governing Body in Brooklyn NY) receive direct revelations from God. Like the LDS, JWs also have a president who basically fulfills the same role as the current LDS prophet. The governing body has repeatedly made false predictions concerning when they believed Armageddon would occur. Each time they have got it wrong, some JWs left but the vast majority stayed. I won't get in to the rationalizations the governing body has used to extricate themselves time and again but my point is that if people want to believe, it doesn't take much to GET them to believe. Even the flimsiest, most implausible rationalization will do it.

People rarely, if ever, adopt a formal religion due to reason or the presence of evidence. Any argument a believer could use to prove the truth of their religion can also be used to prove the truth of any other religion. Any evidence which seems to disprove their religion can simply be dismissed as false. You can see this for yourself by studying the sophisms of Holocaust deniers or those who believe that the moon landing was faked. No matter how overwhelming the evidence is, they simply deny it's legitimacy while accepting the 'evidence' for their own beliefs without question.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Origen

[Dravin]

That's a very valid point Origen and why I brought up it being convincing to everyone. If I find something I believe to be categorically damning of the Church that doesn't mean everyone else will (which means it isn't realignment, or disintegration, the Church would keep chugging along like it does when any other apostate skedaddles). It really would take the power of hypothetical to come up with something that everyone in the Church would find conclusive evidence of falsity.