Prenup and alimony

[garryw]

My son is 12 but when he is ready to marry I will recommend a prenup to him. It will not cover any assets of course, young guys typically have nothing of much value. But I found out the hard way that alimony is a stickler and there is nothing you can do about it. All 50 states are no-fault which means alimony is based on income, not anything else. Consider it as a sort of final judgment where the well employed go to outer darkness and the less employed go to celestial kingdom regardless of how they lived their lives. Not exactly just.

Of course I doubt he will listen, nobody does until it's their turn in divorce court. But I would have appreciated it if my father had taught me something about alimony before I got married.

[O2BNSD]

My son is 12 but when he is ready to marry I will recommend a prenup to him. It will not cover any assets of course, young guys typically have nothing of much value. But I found out the hard way that alimony is a stickler and there is nothing you can do about it. All 50 states are no-fault which means alimony is based on income, not anything else. Consider it as a sort of final judgment where the well employed go to outer darkness and the less employed go to celestial kingdom regardless of how they lived their lives. Not exactly just.

Of course I doubt he will listen, nobody does until it's their turn in divorce court. But I would have appreciated it if my father had taught me something about alimony before I got married.

Instead of advising him in this way, why not teach him to strive for a goal of marriage that encompasses respect, dedication, devotion, sacrifice, patience, honor, truthfullness, selflessness, etc. Teach him to value these things & to find the individual that will do the same. It is a tragedy that today there are so many divorces left & right without any thought to the devastation that they bring their children & other family members. People have become too selfish & self-centered to really work in keeping a marriage intact. No one is willing to do the work required to maintain the relationship. If we, as parents, teach our children what is needed & required to make a strong relationship successful, then we will have new generations that can turn around this travasty of excessive broken marriages.

[Just_A_Guy]

Garry, I hate to be a pessimist, but even if your boy convinces some sweet young thing to sign a prenup, and she puts him through medical school, and then the marriage falls apart twenty years down the road and she's left with no marketable skills while he goes on to a six-figure income--

That prenup won't be worth very much, and he's going to be paying alimony.

At least in Utah, where I practice, divorce judges have broad discretion to award alimony in whatever amount they think fair. They're not going to allow a woman to become a ward of the state simply because of a document she signed decades ago when she was barely out of her teens.

[honestabe]

Garry,

The only way around that issue is to never get married!!!! You would be better off to tell your boy that if he can milk the cow for free.....why buy it!!!!! lol

(There was no disrespect towards cows in the following comment).

No but being serious, and i`m speaking from experience in this issue. One of the best things that you can do to protect yourself is..Make sure that your future wife ALWAYS has a job. 2. Try to keep your incomes close to the same. 3. Don`t have a bazzilion children. The laws tend to be vary biased towards women when it comes to the children. As a father you find out pretty quick that you are a WALLET FIRST and then a father. It isn`t fair but it is what it is.

[slamjet]

Prenups are legally useless.

[Gwen]

Just because there is a divorce that doesn't demand alimony. You have to be married for enough years to qualify. My husband was married before and he pays no alimony.

I understand having been burned and wanting to prevent that in your children. I am with others that there are better things to encourage for your son.

Pre-marriage counseling, engagements that are longer than a few months (and courtship), living in the same town and really getting to know each other (vs long distance or internet romance), etc.

Teach him about dating your spouse and the importance of weekends away once kids come along. And then be there to support him, be available to and encourage them to let you watch them so they can have alone time, be someone he can talk to when he gets to stressed and teach him to not be afraid of seeking help before it's to late.

In the resources for your marriage thread (in the marriage advise forum) there is a wonderful list of books. Read them yourself, start teaching the principles now and when he's old enough give them to him to read (before he "needs" them).

Those things will be far more helpful and encouraging to him than talks about alimony and pre-nups.

[garryw]

Pre-marriage counseling, engagements that are longer than a few months (and courtship), living in the same town and really getting to know each other (vs long distance or internet romance), etc.

From my experience the "getting to know better" thing isn't really a factor. I have an uncle who was married over 20 years with 5 children when his wife divorced him and married her boyfriend 6 days after the divorce was final. This is a "church going" family with all the trimmings. All the advice and counseling in the world cannot predict a person's choices 20+ years down the road.

Brigham Young was a prophet and he had multiple divorces. You just can't predict these things. If it were possible, I'm sure he wouldn't have had a divorce.

[MarginOfError]

From my experience the "getting to know better" thing isn't really a factor. I have an uncle who was married over 20 years with 5 children when his wife divorced him and married her boyfriend 6 days after the divorce was final. This is a "church going" family with all the trimmings. All the advice and counseling in the world cannot predict a person's choices 20+ years down the road.

Brigham Young was a prophet and he had multiple divorces. You just can't predict these things. If it were possible, I'm sure he wouldn't have had a divorce.

Not an entirely even comparison since having multiple wives greatly increases one's chances of having multiple divorces.

[Gwen]

You are right all the pre-marriage preparation in the world is a waste and useless if you stop courting after you are married. It's a process for the rest of your relationship. Which is why I also mentioned the stuff about dating your spouse and making yourself available to help with kids when that time comes. For my husband and I the biggest reason we don't get out more is the babysitting factor. We could afford to go places, he has the vacation, but it's hard to find sitters for 5 young kids. It's also why I mentioned the books on relationships (5 love languages, his needs her needs, etc). They will teach him how to nurture the relationship and keep it strong so 15 yrs later the relationship is still strong rather than on the edge of divorce.

And yes I do understand divorce and the ramifications of it. My parents divorced just shy of 30yrs of marriage, my husband was married before so I deal with all the same issues as if I was (visitation, child support, an ex, etc), I have family members that have been through divorce.....

[NeuroTypical]

Hi garryw,

Sorry you're hurting. Good luck in raising your son to not go through the painful process you've just gone through.

[garryw]

Not an entirely even comparison since having multiple wives greatly increases one's chances of having multiple divorces.

The odds were stacked against him for sure. On the other hand the divorce rate was much much lower in the 1800's than it is today so he had an advantage there. And on a practical level each of his wives could not extract half his income from him in the form of alimony. He could argue in court they only get 1/37th each. That's not so bad as in the case of monogamy.

[LDSJewess]

My son is 12 but when he is ready to marry I will recommend a prenup to him. It will not cover any assets of course, young guys typically have nothing of much value. But I found out the hard way that alimony is a stickler and there is nothing you can do about it. All 50 states are no-fault which means alimony is based on income, not anything else. Consider it as a sort of final judgment where the well employed go to outer darkness and the less employed go to celestial kingdom regardless of how they lived their lives. Not exactly just.

Of course I doubt he will listen, nobody does until it's their turn in divorce court. But I would have appreciated it if my father had taught me something about alimony before I got married.

Garry,

Sorry you are hurting and it is understandable that if you are going through a divorce you are feeling bitter and jaded.

But if you even attempt to teach your son such things, you are actually teaching him that you have negative feelings about his mother and that you don't feel that his mother (and possibly him too if you are paying child support), should be or are worthy enough to be taken care of.

Personally I have taught my sons and daughters and now grandchildren, that if a potential spouse even suggests a prenup, then it is time to break off the engagement.

Suggesting a prenup is suggesting that there is no faith that the marriage will survive or be worked at, and that if the going gets tough, it's each one for themselves.

The only way a prenup would work or be even thinkable for a woman to consider is 1. If she has equal education, employment and income as her spouse, 2. Both husband and wife are career people and have no children. 3. The marriage is entered into with equal assets. If not, then no prenup.

Teach your son to be a good husband and be a man of honesty, integrity and make wise choices in the people that he surrounds himself with. Then teach him to take his time before deciding who to marry. Then once married be prepared to give it his all for better, for worse, richer, poorer, sickness health and all the rest.

My best to you and your entire family.

[garryw]

Garry,

Sorry you are hurting and it is understandable that if you are going through a divorce you are feeling bitter and jaded.

But if you even attempt to teach your son such things, you are actually teaching him that you have negative feelings about his mother and that you don't feel that his mother (and possibly him too if you are paying child support), should be or are worthy enough to be taken care of.

I respectfully disagree. A woman that leaves her husband for another man should not be entitled to alimony period. If she needs alimony, perhaps her boyfriend should consider her "worthy" and "entitled" and give her money. I sure don't. I feel zero moral obligation to pay alimony under these circumstances. Child support is a different topic altogether, it's not related to prenups or alimony. My ex is pregnant with her boyfriend and probably would have married him by now if not for her alimony (remarriage ends alimony). So her new child will be raised in a broken home precisely due to alimony. So in conclusion alimony is detrimental to children, and families in general.

[Gwen]

You might be able to combat it due to the cohabitation and having a child together. Depends on your state but you may want to talk to legal counsel, might have a case.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Gwen

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

Two thoughts.

• Does your son's finance (or her parents or lawyers) get to put in clauses binding on him?
• Have you considered that this probably increases the chances that your son will wind up marrying a lawyer?

[LDSJewess]

I respectfully disagree. A woman that leaves her husband for another man should not be entitled to alimony period. If she needs alimony, perhaps her boyfriend should consider her "worthy" and "entitled" and give her money. I sure don't. I feel zero moral obligation to pay alimony under these circumstances. Child support is a different topic altogether, it's not related to prenups or alimony. My ex is pregnant with her boyfriend and probably would have married him by now if not for her alimony (remarriage ends alimony). So her new child will be raised in a broken home precisely due to alimony. So in conclusion alimony is detrimental to children, and families in general.

It's ok with me that we agree to disagree and I do understand your dilemma. But since I am not personally involved in your situation, and neither are the courts, they have to look at the big picture.

Your ex-wife may also be choosing not to jump into another marriage so soon after a divorce. And giving up alimony and then possibly have a second failed marriage and having to go through the same financial drama to properly support her family is enough to make anyone wary. You need to understand that evebn though you feel like you are the wronged party, there are rarely perfectly innocent parties when divorce happens.

As for what you son needs to really learn about marriage, is seriously not to think of it as something he must do as soon as he reaches legal adulthood. I know that the church encourages early martriage mainly to deter young people from disobeying the law of chastity at a time when their hormones and emotions are off the radar. BUT with 51 oercent of marriages ending in divorce, I believe that a marriage has much better chances and children have a much better chance of being raised in a functional home when the couple/parents are mature adults that are not thinking with their hormones and dramatic emotions.

I read a lot here about courting, dating, wives needing husbands to "pay attention" to them and build their self esteem. I also read a lot about men struggling with pronography and sexual urges. Perhaps when marriage is between 2 mature educated adults that can think beyone all that and manage to find the self esteem within themselves, then they can look at marriage as the merging of a family and the lifetime work and responsibility it takes throughout generations.

When you get to be my age (take this for what it is worth), you can look back on your ealy courtship with fond memories. And then you know that your feelings of self esteem were already in place long before you met your spouse. You can understand that once the courtship, romance, frequent sex, date nights and all that are replaced with working together to complete educations, pay opff student ;oans, buying your home, maintaining your home, nuturing and educating your children to grow up and develop their own sense of seof esteem and positive goals for their adult life.

The day will come when you are not thinking about courtship, date nights and romantic fantasies. Instead you will simply feel content and grateful that you are healthy and alive and alongside each other. You will feel the satisfaction at a family gathering that your middle aged children are pretty much raising your young adult grandchildren much like you raised them; and your young adult grandchildren as they are haveing their first babies will have the skills to carry on into the new generations.

My husband and I were having a conversation n our home this past week about how some younger people seem to stress out so much over stuff that will become totally meaningless over time.

Remamber that what I am describing is my life and seeing my 4th generation beginning, and it just boggles my mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg because this entire plan is for infinity, eternity.

Don't get caught up in resentment for alimony. Instead focus with your son about choosing people he will be happy to spend an eternity with, and to take all the time he needs to find it.

[garryw]

Two thoughts.

• Does your son's finance (or her parents or lawyers) get to put in clauses binding on him?
• Have you considered that this probably increases the chances that your son will wind up marrying a lawyer?

1. of course the prenup should cover both parties. Absolutely.

2. I have no problem with lawyers, or marriage to them.

[garryw]

It's ok with me that we agree to disagree and I do understand your dilemma. But since I am not personally involved in your situation, and neither are the courts, they have to look at the big picture.

Your ex-wife may also be choosing not to jump into another marriage so soon after a divorce. And giving up alimony and then possibly have a second failed marriage and having to go through the same financial drama to properly support her family is enough to make anyone wary. You need to understand that evebn though you feel like you are the wronged party, there are rarely perfectly innocent parties when divorce happens.

As for what you son needs to really learn about marriage, is seriously not to think of it as something he must do as soon as he reaches legal adulthood. I know that the church encourages early martriage mainly to deter young people from disobeying the law of chastity at a time when their hormones and emotions are off the radar. BUT with 51 oercent of marriages ending in divorce, I believe that a marriage has much better chances and children have a much better chance of being raised in a functional home when the couple/parents are mature adults that are not thinking with their hormones and dramatic emotions.

I read a lot here about courting, dating, wives needing husbands to "pay attention" to them and build their self esteem. I also read a lot about men struggling with pronography and sexual urges. Perhaps when marriage is between 2 mature educated adults that can think beyone all that and manage to find the self esteem within themselves, then they can look at marriage as the merging of a family and the lifetime work and responsibility it takes throughout generations.

When you get to be my age (take this for what it is worth), you can look back on your ealy courtship with fond memories. And then you know that your feelings of self esteem were already in place long before you met your spouse. You can understand that once the courtship, romance, frequent sex, date nights and all that are replaced with working together to complete educations, pay opff student ;oans, buying your home, maintaining your home, nuturing and educating your children to grow up and develop their own sense of seof esteem and positive goals for their adult life.

The day will come when you are not thinking about courtship, date nights and romantic fantasies. Instead you will simply feel content and grateful that you are healthy and alive and alongside each other. You will feel the satisfaction at a family gathering that your middle aged children are pretty much raising your young adult grandchildren much like you raised them; and your young adult grandchildren as they are haveing their first babies will have the skills to carry on into the new generations.

My husband and I were having a conversation n our home this past week about how some younger people seem to stress out so much over stuff that will become totally meaningless over time.

Remamber that what I am describing is my life and seeing my 4th generation beginning, and it just boggles my mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg because this entire plan is for infinity, eternity.

Don't get caught up in resentment for alimony. Instead focus with your son about choosing people he will be happy to spend an eternity with, and to take all the time he needs to find it.

Yes the church encourages young people to get married as fast as possible. But I really don't see that as the root of the problem, although I agree it's silly. When you see "temple" marriages fail after 10, 20, 30 years it's hard to argue that the couple was too young. They made it through youth and into middle age. Often with several children.

And it's easy to talk about finding the one for eternity. It's easy to sit back and advise men to pay alimony without getting caught up with the fact it's supporting her life with her boyfriend. In practice it's ethically wrong. morally wrong, and basically legalized theft.

I am still convinced that every young man should have a prenup as long as all 50 states are now "no-fault". Marriage is basically a contract where women have free license to do anything and everything, then cash in on it without even the court considering the circumstances. Horrible horrible contract, at least for the guy.

[shdwlkr]

First there is nothing you can do before marriage that will protect you from a divorce. Second any marriage can fail for so many different reasons, some good some just plain stupid, so how do you prepare anyone for this?

third if two people fall out of love, just don't want to be together anymore or even if one of the partners decides they can do better with someone else the courts will make it real easy for them to get rid of you.

Fourth in the church or not divorce is seen as the cure for all the problems in the current marriage, what the courts forget is that life is going to challenge the couple no matter who you are married too.

Fifth any marriage can succeed or fail based on how hard the couple work on it, notice I said couple if one decides they want someone new then it is over period.

Sixth and last if you want a marriage to work marry someone who is close to you in almost all areas of life, doesn't have to have the same view of the interests just that they understand the interest and don't see it as a threat to the relationship.

Having just gone through a almost a year of divorce court I can tell you some things are just going to go the favor of the woman and the man is seen as dirt, having said that you can as a guy get what you mainly want if you fight hard enough and can convince the Judge that it is in the best interest of the children. Notice I said children as you can do little to make life hard for the woman as the court is going to make sure she is able to live like she did when married to you. She will also take this into the new marriage and they will live better than you maybe but that is just the way it is now in divorce court.

[garryw]

First there is nothing you can do before marriage that will protect you from a divorce.

I know 99% of LDS don't believe that statement, but I am in the 1%. A prenup wont save you from divorce, but it will give you a better shot at justice. People change. Lucifer was an angel of light. Now he is the father of lies. That's a pretty dramatic change. The person you marry today has total agency to do anything and everything. To say a person cant change is to deny the concept of agency.

[CaptainEm]

There is plenty of things you can do before marriage to prevent divorce. Make sure the marriage is a good idea. Have developed communication skills.

I like the idea of a prenup even though few people who get them probably want divorce. It's practical and helpful.

[shdwlkr]

The sad thing is if you and your wife are married for say ten years and then get a divorce if she has a good lawyer they can dispute everything in the prenup to the point it is useless. As to getting a better shake if you are the guy you are going to pay for the kids based on the judge or state's rules for child support, you are a nothing in this area. I know of too many guys who are homeless because of what the court said they had to pay the ex in child support.

[Martain]

Personally I have taught my sons and daughters and now grandchildren, that if a potential spouse even suggests a prenup, then it is time to break off the engagement.

Suggesting a prenup is suggesting that there is no faith that the marriage will survive or be worked at, and that if the going gets tough, it's each one for themselves.

Personally I haven't been dead set against a prenup. Hearing LDSJewess's comments makes me wonder though.

My parents were divorced and my grandparents were divorced. I swore that it would end with me. No matter what happens, I will never divorce my wife. This does mean that yes, I won't get married without God's stamp of approval as I'm simply not wise enough to forsee the future as he does and I need someone with the same commitment to make it work that I have.

While I don't want a prenup, I do wnat to set up, in advance, a game plan of what we would do to ensure we don't become a statistic. This would include frank discussion as to the varied reasons for divorce and what we would do in each.

By not being the initiator myself I can cut my odds in half. By revelation from God and preparation in advance, I can cut out the odds on the other side of the equation as well. I am NOT going to become a statistic.

That's what I'll teach my children. Don't get married without a witness from God that your marriage is approved.

[garryw]

By not being the initiator myself I can cut my odds in half. By revelation from God and preparation in advance, I can cut out the odds on the other side of the equation as well.

If you live in the United states then you should know that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. So you can only reduce your chances by 30%.

I do like your attitude though. +1

Also be advised that you cannot prevent divorce with revelation. More than one president of the LDS church has been divorced. I'm not saying that as a negative thing. The point is Heavenly Father is more than willing to let people screw up. That's the plan we chose.

[Just_A_Guy]

Personally I have taught my sons and daughters and now grandchildren, that if a potential spouse even suggests a prenup, then it is time to break off the engagement.

Suggesting a prenup is suggesting that there is no faith that the marriage will survive or be worked at, and that if the going gets tough, it's each one for themselves.

The only way a prenup would work or be even thinkable for a woman to consider is 1. If she has equal education, employment and income as her spouse, 2. Both husband and wife are career people and have no children. 3. The marriage is entered into with equal assets. If not, then no prenup.

I would add that if it's a second marriage, and one person has children through a pre-existing marriage, a pre-nup can be a very useful estate planning tool.