Is Unconfessed Murder Forgiveable?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Now that we got the verdict that Casey Anthony is going to get away with murder, I'd like to ask, can a person who refuses to confess murder be forgiven?

No, I don't mean privately asking God for forgiveness. I mean going to the police, confessing the crime, and taking the punishment for it. Will a person receive the mercy of heaven when they shunned the justice of man?

Matthew 5 (NKJV)

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

You see, I believe it's absolutely impossible to be forgiven for murder when it remains concealed. God's mercy in the afterlife is contingent on being reconciled to man, a fact alluded to here in this gospel passage. Even if that reconciliation means death, a person may then hope and pray for mercy when they stand before God; having paid a temporal price for their sin. I am convinced to the depths of my soul that if somebody kills another and then hides it from the authorities, they have no chance of salvation even if they seek it diligently with tears on bended knee.

As an odd quirk of the American justice system, even if Casey Anthony confessed it now, she could not be punished because of Double Jeopardy. The non guilty verdict may be to her and those like her (OJ Simpson) an inescapable sentence to eternal punishment in hell.

What do you think?

[LDSJewess]

Well I cannot speak for Heavenly Father but children are a gift from God and they are entrusted into the care of the parents.

The unknown Daddy is no where to be found and the mother does not report her missing child to the police for over a month, (and only then when her mother pushed the issue).

I personally believe that atonement involves confession not only to God but to those that were in any way hurt by the sin, (which in this case is a huge community of people), and then a promise and fulfillment of that promise not to do it again.

Just as a footnote, I often wonder what degrees of sin are of most importance to heavenly Father. In other words is murder worse than something else. To me it is but I am not the writer of the rules. To me a life is precious and to be cherished. It is the ultimate gift here on earth and for anyone to take another life is the worst form of sin. So many talk about how sinful it is to disobey the law of chastity (as in an adolescent mastrubating etc), but murder is just way over the top and personally I would find it hard to imagine that one could just pray for forgiveness and then move on.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Just to give you an idea of how important murder is to God, I'd like to point out that after the flood God told Noah that if anyone sheds mans blood, his blood should also be shed. God could have addressed any number of other offenses, but he chose this one and levied upon it the most grave punishment. Mormons believe that in most cases murder is unforgiveable. That's not something I agree with totally, but I appreciate the sentiment that God is not a slot machine with a "forgiveness" lever that can whisk away even the most eggregious offenses.

[SQUARE]

Yes, you can be forgiven. But at some point between now on Earth, or in the Spirit World they will have to confess. And if it is on earth that they confess they will suffer until they fully repent. Murder is a very very bad sin, but can be forgiven. If they do not confess in this life and wait untill the next life, they will have to suffer very much if they decide that they want to repent. Since they did not accept Jesus Christ's Atonement which he suffered already for each of us. He allready payed the price. Now they will have to pay the price and take upon themselves to suffer for this very terrible sin. According to Mark 3:29. The only sin that is not forgiven is "Blaspheme against the Holy Ghost".

As for Sis. Casey Anthony lets not be the Judge. Let's let God do this. We are not to Judge others. I hope that she makes the right decisions and can be presented our Heavenly Fathers Plan, the plan of salvation to better help her in this life and for eternity. She needs many prayers I am sure. We do not know her state of mind. Only Heavenly Father does.

Edited July 5, 2011 by SQUARE

[NeuroTypical]

Will a person receive the mercy of heaven when they shunned the justice of man?

Human justice often stinks. It's lousy. At it's best, it is unevenly applied and often ineffective. For example, it doesn't matter what we humans do here on earth, that little girl won't magically show back up and everything won't be all better - so from that standpoint, human justice cannot right all wrongs.

I'd sure hate to have heaven's mercy held by the throat by an imperfect fallible error-prone unrighteous-agenda-driven system like human justice.

Now - all that said, I don't know the answer to your question. I'm guessing the answer is "it depends".

Edited July 5, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

LM, I would haste to point out that man's justice system is ordained by God, fallible as it is. But the question isn't whether or not perfect justice would be meted, but rather whether somebody who kills, and does not submit to the justice of man, imperfect as it is, can have any hope of salvation. By this token, it's not a matter of the quality of justice, but the individual choice of a murderer to reveal his crime to his fellow man.

I say a resounding no.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

To develop my last point even further, in cases where Double Jeopardy has applied and a person can no longer be punished by the American justice system even if they confess, is there any hope for them?

I say no again. I say no because through the trial, the defendent was asked repeatedly to confess to what they have done. The first few times is heartbreaking for a guilty person to feel that heart tug to open the floodgates and reveal the crime they have committed. The desire to confess one's guilt is given to us by God to open up a path to reconciliation when we have seriously erred. When that mechanism is ignored time and time again, as is the case with someone being tried for murder, the heart becomes hardened and the decision to conceal one's guilt solidified. This is why we are warned repeatedly not to harden our hearts in Scripture. Those of us who do become "locked in" to a path leading straight to damnation; not because of God's unwillingness to forgive, but because of our unwillingness to repent.

Shudder the thought that we should ever take that course!

[slamjet]

To develop my last point even further, in cases where Double Jeopardy has applied and a person can no longer be punished by the American justice system even if they confess, is there any hope for them?

I say no again. I say no because through the trial, the defendent was asked repeatedly to confess to what they have done. The first few times is heartbreaking for a guilty person to feel that heart tug to open the floodgates and reveal the crime they have committed. The desire to confess one's guilt is given to us by God to open up a path to reconciliation when we have seriously erred. When that mechanism is ignored time and time again, as is the case with someone being tried for murder, the heart becomes hardened and the decision to conceal one's guilt solidified. This is why we are warned repeatedly not to harden our hearts in Scripture. Those of us who do become "locked in" to a path leading straight to damnation; not because of God's unwillingness to forgive, but because of our unwillingness to repent.

Shudder the thought that we should ever take that course!

I am so not in agreement with this. To say there is no hope for a person is so against what Christ taught. Plus, you put's a simplistic spin on a very, very complex problem that includes years of programming, experiences, actions, reactions, etc. There are many folks who deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny but yet, they find their way and come back to God and civilization. I've seen too much, I've experienced too much and I've known enough people to not agree with you.

Is it easy? No. Will some not come back? Yes. Do we throw people away who do not want to confess all sins? Unequivocally no.

Plus, I suspect that where you got your descriptions on confessions is supposition from too much television time. Too simple, too definitive.

[bytor2112]

Doctrine and Covenants Section 42:

18And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

[bytor2112]

Yes, you can be forgiven. But at some point between now on Earth, or in the Spirit World they will have to confess. And if it is on earth that they confess they will suffer until they fully repent. Murder is a very very bad sin, but can be forgiven. If they do not confess in this life and wait untill the next life, they will have to suffer very much if they decide that they want to repent. Since they did not accept Jesus Christ's Atonement which he suffered already for each of us. He allready payed the price. Now they will have to pay the price and take upon themselves to suffer for this very terrible sin. According to Mark 3:29. The only sin that is not forgiven is "Blaspheme against the Holy Ghost".

As for Sis. Casey Anthony lets not be the Judge. Let's let God do this. We are not to Judge others. I hope that she makes the right decisions and can be presented our Heavenly Fathers Plan, the plan of salvation to better help her in this life and for eternity. She needs many prayers I am sure. We do not know her state of mind. Only Heavenly Father does.

Not according to Doctrine and Covenants section 42:

18And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

Edited July 5, 2011 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

I am so not in agreement with this. To say there is no hope for a person is so against what Christ taught. Plus, you put's a simplistic spin on a very, very complex problem that includes years of programming, experiences, actions, reactions, etc. There are many folks who deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny but yet, they find their way and come back to God and civilization. I've seen too much, I've experienced too much and I've known enough people to not agree with you.

Is it easy? No. Will some not come back? Yes. Do we throw people away who do not want to confess all sins? Unequivocally no.

Plus, I suspect that where you got your descriptions on confessions is supposition from too much television time. Too simple, too definitive.

I don't think a murderer will be forgiven, at least not in the sense that they will return to the presence of the Father. Confession is designed to help the sinner truly understand the serious nature of their transgressions and help them to not repeat. I certainly believe that the Lord will and has forgiven many that did not fully confess serious transgressions to Priest hood leaders. After all, it is the Lord that will judge our hearts, the church does not forgive sin.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I am so not in agreement with this. To say there is no hope for a person is so against what Christ taught. Plus, you put's a simplistic spin on a very, very complex problem that includes years of programming, experiences, actions, reactions, etc. There are many folks who deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny but yet, they find their way and come back to God and civilization. I've seen too much, I've experienced too much and I've known enough people to not agree with you.

Jesus warned against the hardening of our hearts and it was for this very reason. Each time we refuse to respond to grace, we become just a little deafer to it. Does God raise his voice? The reason that the police elicit a quick confession is because it's at the time of the crime in which a person is most willing. Once a person has gotten over that hill without confessing, the desire to do so is greatly diminished.

Plus, I suspect that where you got your descriptions on confessions is supposition from too much television time. Too simple, too definitive.

Actually I hardly followed the news on that trial. Or are you seriously suggesting that, as a Catholic, I'm unacquainted with confessions except for what I see on TV?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I don't think a murderer will be forgiven, at least not in the sense that they will return to the presence of the Father. Confession is designed to help the sinner truly understand the serious nature of their transgressions and help them to not repeat. I certainly believe that the Lord will and has forgiven many that did not fully confess serious transgressions to Priest hood leaders. After all, it is the Lord that will judge our hearts, the church does not forgive sin.

You see, it's here that we get into LDS teaching on the subject. My experience is that most Mormons don't believe this because they don't want to. What I find repugnant is the idea that murder is just like any other sin, and you just pull the slot machine lever and get the same result you get for gossip, fibbing, or any number of venial sins. Murder is such a serious and grievious offense that, although I don't fully agree with what you said, I'm in sync with you in addressing the grave nature of this offense. Paul considered his life of fervent service to the Church of God to be an act of pennance for how he persecuted Christians, assisting in their deaths. It's not an issue of whether or not Paul was forgiven, but rather it highlighted how much he dreaded the memory of what he did and used it as a catylist to do even more good.

Forgiveness for murder is not like forgiveness for any other sin. It should be sought desperately with all intent to make ammends and it cannot be concealed from God or man. Mercy for this sin should be hoped for, but never assumed. It seems too many Christians think it a commodity to be meted out in a perfunctory manner. I'm more in line with your position than theirs.

[slamjet]

Actually I hardly followed the news on that trial. Or are you seriously suggesting that, as a Catholic, I'm unacquainted with confessions except for what I see on TV?

By how you described it, yes. I can only go on what you have posted and it's on the simplistic side. Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, all have guilt complexes so that's not really a good gauge on one's acquaintance with confessions.

[Echo2002]

I'm going to also say it depends on the situation and the intent of the murderer. A Prosecutor can try to prove intent, but since we are human we can not look upon the heart of the offender and know what his/her intent was.

[rameumptom]

Christ's atonement reaches out to all people who repent. So, if she does not confess and repent in this life, she can confess and repent in the spirit world. The only thing is: what kingdom of salvation will she receive? Getting out of earthly punishment and denying it until she dies (if she is guilty), means she will probably rate the Telestial Kingdom at best. But she will go through Spirit Prison hell for a time, until she has either paid for her sins and/or fully repented of them.

[Dove]

Hello,

As far as I understand LDS doctrine, cold blooded murder is an unforgivable sin....And a person who has committed murder is not even allowed to be baptized into the LDS church once they have done this.

As far as Paul goes, I don't know; however, I believe he was fully forgiven of his sins in order to become a representative of Christ and His church....

I agree with Bytor's and Rameumpton's posts on this. Murder is an unforgivable sin according to LDS doctrine, repented of or not....

[SQUARE]

Not according to Doctrine and Covenants section 42:

18And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

There is not to much to say when it is in black and white which is Doctrine.

I guess Heavenly Father will have to sort this one out.

[Vort]

Not according to Doctrine and Covenants section 42:

18And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

There is not to much to say when it is in black and white which is Doctrine.

I guess Heavenly Father will have to sort this one out.

Yet Nephi killed. So did Captain Moroni, and Mormon, and Moroni. Joseph Smith fired off a pistol at his assassination in an attempt to kill. Soldiers in armed conflicts kill each other all the time. Odds are you know people who have killed others.

[SQUARE]

I was taking this from bytor2112 above. I do not know how to post others qoutes.

In the bible it talks of of blaspemy of the holy ghost or denying the holy ghost not being forgiven. When you see the doctrine and covenants 42, how can you say that killing(murder), you can be forgiven. Understanding that killings such as you described were for self defense , or because god told nephi to kill laban. Joseph smith revealed that you shall not murder. replaces the commandment shall not kill. Our military kill people to protect our freedoms. Now if they murder in cold blood, then D&C 42 will take place. With all said we can not be the judge of the state of mind anyone is in who murders. Only god knows and can forgive.

[Jamie123]

...murder is just way over the top and personally I would find it hard to imagine that one could just pray for forgiveness and then move on.

What about someone like John Newton, who must have been compliant in the horrible deaths of many hundreds of black slaves, before he discovered Christ and started a new life? What he did must have amounted to "praying for forgiveness and moving on".

And Saint Paul must have been in the same category too.

[Jamie123]

.As an odd quirk of the American justice system, even if Casey Anthony confessed it now, she could not be punished because of Double Jeopardy. The non guilty verdict may be to her and those like her (OJ Simpson) an inescapable sentence to eternal punishment in hell.

Firstly we don't know that Simpson and Antony were guilty. That is why they were acquitted. People were making the same sort of "we-know-he-did-it" comments about Colin Stagg after his acquittal in 1994 (when the UK still had a strong double jeapardy law) and he was later proved to be completely innocent!

Secondly, even assuming that they are guilty, do you think God's grace so weak that it depends on the decisions of juries? I'm sure that sincere confession and meaningful repentance - including some form of self-imposed penance - would still be acceptable to God. He's forgiven some worse sinners than either of these!

Edited July 7, 2011 by Jamie123

[Guest Sachi001]

Nope as repenting and atoning is required. This is part of the Plan of Salvation. Not confessing is failing in these requirements big time.

[Dove]

It seems there are two doctrines going on here. One being LDS and the other catholic. It might be well to clarify which is which and who is representing which one.....

[sensibility]

Not according to Doctrine and Covenants section 42:

18And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 42:18 is speaking to people in the Church, who have already made covenants with God. If you look at the scriptures cross-referenced, they're even more specific in addressing only members of the covenant. We have a higher level of accountability, and I don't think that scripture applies to people outside the Church.

To answer the original question, yes, I believe the sin must be confessed to be forgiven. But I don't think refusing to confess it at one point stops you confessing it later.