Calling and Election made sure

[Guest tbaird22]

I know what this is and how it works but what i want to know is how frequently it actually occurs in the church. You dont have to tell if its you or someone you know just reply with the number of people you heard have had their calling and election made sure. Personally, I know of 2.

[Jamie123]

I know what this is and how it works...

I didn't know what this was and had to look it up. For the benefit of anyone else who's confused, here's the Wilipedia entry on it:

Second anointing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

[beefche]

tbaird, how do you know of 2 people?

[pam]

I was going to say..that's 2 more than I know or will probably ever know in my lifetime.

[Jamie123]

I was going to say..that's 2 more than I know or will probably ever know in my lifetime.

This is all quite new to me, but it sounds to me like something which is hardly ever done these days. Wikipedia says:

...it is known that in 1942, 13 of the church's 32 General Authorities had not received the second anointing (Buerger 1983, p. 41). By 1949, the practice had been comparatively "practically discontinued" by the LDS Church, though in 1981 it continued "to be performed--albeit on a smale scale".

[applepansy]

If someone has heard from Heavenly Father "You will be exalted", wouldn't it be prideful to go around telling people?

[Guest tbaird22]

The first is a family friend (best friends aunt who has had a really hard life). I did not know what this was like many of you. One day we were talking to his dad and asked how the aunt was doing because it'd been awhile since we had seen her. He told us that she had randomly been called to be interviewed by a member of the first pres (or maybe it was the entire first pres) in salt lake. After that the only thing he would tell us is that it was a very special interview. Then we did our own research and discovered this doctrine and when we asked if this is what he meant all he did is nod. The second was a similar story from a missionary (although i didnt even bring this subject up; we were talking about the temple).

[Guest tbaird22]

If someone has heard from Heavenly Father "You will be exalted", wouldn't it be prideful to go around telling people?

no its not "going around and telling" but if when asked i dont think they feel particularly obligated to lie. especially to family.

[Guest mysticmorini]

He told us that she had randomly been called to be interviewed by a member of the first pres (or maybe it was the entire first pres) in salt lake. After that the only thing he would tell us is that it was a very special interview. .

The ordinance is a Husband and wife thing, they wouldn't call just the Aunt to SL.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Just_A_Guy
Link to website containing temple ceremony was removed.

[beefche]

Honestly, if I were called by SLC to interview with the 1st presidency, I don't think I would tell anyone until after the interview is completed. Even then, depending on the reason for the interview, I may not say anything. If I'm gonna get my calling/election sure (with my husband), then there is absolutely no reason to tell anyone about it. If I'm gonna be the next general RS president, ya'll will find out at General Conference.

[sixpacktr]

If I got a call from SLC to meet with Pres Monson and his counselors, heck, any of the Quorum of the 12, I think that 1) I'd be scared to death, 2) I wouldn't sleep until it was over, and then probably never sleep again afterwards, and 3) wouldn't open my mouth to anyone about any of it except as allowed by the person talking to me.

Heck, I get that way from getting a call from the Stake Presidency! Multiply that anxiety by 100000000 times if the call came from Pres Monson.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So, what difference does the frequency make? Just curiosity? or is there some underlying gospel principle you are after?

What if we were to arrive at some specific frequency, say 0.000002% versus 0.0002% of members, does that change anything for you?

Please explain the purpose of your question.

[AGStacker]

There is a story on a forum where a man describes his account of calling and election. He later left the Church. It seems to be sincere and if so it happens more often than you think.

[lizzy16]

I think this is a really personal question. I wonder it sometimes. I'll walk into the room at church and look around and wonder how many people have had there calling and election sure but then I remember its a sacred ordinance, and not my place to think about others personal covenants.

I'm just going to worry about myself.

[Guest tbaird22]

The ordinance is a Husband and wife thing, they wouldn't call just the Aunt to SL.

The Second Endowment is a couple thing but i also believe that Second Comforter can be described as a calling and election made sure. I dont believe that because you get the second endowment you get the second comforter or that the second endowment is required for the second comforter. The aunt could have been called to SL for the Second Comforter not the Second endowment.

[Guest tbaird22]

So, what difference does the frequency make? Just curiosity? or is there some underlying gospel principle you are after?

What if we were to arrive at some specific frequency, say 0.000002% versus 0.0002% of members, does that change anything for you?

Please explain the purpose of your question.

purely curiosity.

[Guest tbaird22]

There is a story on a forum where a man describes his account of calling and election. He later left the Church. It seems to be sincere and if so it happens more often than you think.

wheres this?

[Just_A_Guy]

wheres this?

Sadly, forum rules prohibit him from posting a link.

The Second Endowment is a couple thing but i also believe that Second Comforter can be described as a calling and election made sure. I dont believe that because you get the second endowment you get the second comforter or that the second endowment is required for the second comforter. The aunt could have been called to SL for the Second Comforter not the Second endowment.

There's only one ordinance the Church administers that directly pertains to this doctrine, and that is what was formerly called the Second Anointing. I understand that it is now generally referred to as "special temple blessings". (Incidentally, I have anecdotal information (from a family member who did a service mission in the temple department) that, at least as of the mid-nineties, a couple thousand of these ordinances were being done annually. No idea whether that's still the case.)

When we speak of someone "receiving the Second Comforter", we are not talking about a Church ordinance. We are talking about the recipient meeting Jesus Christ in person, and hearing from His own lips that the person's calling and election has been made sure. That might happen at the time one receives his or her special temple blessings; but it might happen much later (or perhaps not at all) (and I'm not even 100% sure it couldn't happen before receiving the special temple blessings).

So, while special temple blessings/second anointing are closely associated with making your calling and election sure/the Second Comforter, they are not the same thing--just like not everyone who receives the ordinance of confirmation into the Church immediately receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost; and not everyone who goes to the temple for their endowment immediately receives the fullness of the spiritual outpourings that our scriptures associate with that ordinance.

I would note that while it's important to be aware that the doctrine exists, there is extreme danger in talking about the ordinance too much. To do so opens a gateway for pride by those who have received it and envy/resentment/self-doubt by those who haven't; introduces unnecessary caste systems into the Church; and cheapens the most sacred gift the Lord can offer us during our mortal probation into a "faith promoting rumor" of the same caliber as the I-personally-met-Cain/ I-personally-met-the-Three-Nephites/ We-were-all-generals-in-the-war-in-heaven stuff that we hear repeated ad nauseum.

There are better ways to indulge our idle curiosity than trifling with sacred things, and the doctrine of the Second Comforter is about as sacred as you can get.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[dahlia]

What are you all talking about?

One of my elders told me that all the presidents of the church had seen Jesus Christ - is this what you're talking about? I assume I don't have to turn in my temple recommend if I don't believe this, right?

[HiJolly]

The first comforter is the Holy Ghost. The second comforter is the Savior Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith revealed a "second anointing" (sometimes erroneously called the "second endowment") to a special, select group of the Saints. The endowment today tells us that if we are faithful, we will move from beyond the *promise* of great blessings, powers, dominions, etc. to the actual fulfillment of the promised blessings - the literal actual bestowal in the flesh. That is what the "second anointing" is.

Is is very holy and private, and none who receives this blessing in the temple is allowed to discuss it, except perhaps with a group of others who have also received the blessing. For example, in Nauvoo, there was a "quorum of the anointed" which, interestingly enough, consisted of both men & women.

What I find funny (ha ha) about this is that principle that all blessings and ordinances of the Church are the outward or exoteric aspect of the thing, and that in 99.99% of the cases are simply a presaging or preliminary type or shadow of the "real thing" or esoteric fulfillment of it. Which fulfillment is the domain of the Holy Ghost or perhaps Christ Himself.

So an exoteric ordinance that promises the actual fulfillment of another exoteric ordinance is a play on words, or a play on ritual, that I find very humorous.

HiJolly

Edited July 18, 2011 by HiJolly

[Guest mysticmorini]

What are you all talking about?

One of my elders told me that all the presidents of the church had seen Jesus Christ - is this what you're talking about? I assume I don't have to turn in my temple recommend if I don't believe this, right?

I don't know that there has been an official source claim this. Although, If you trully believe in Joesph Smith's story, the point kinda was that men still talk to God.

[Just_A_Guy]

Dahlia -

The ideas of having one's calling and election made sure (in other words: the possibility that one can be given an unconditional promise of eternal life) and second comforter (in other words: the possibility that a believer can see Jesus Himself) are both reasonably firmly ensconced in Mormon doctrine. Both of these have references in the Bible Dictionary appended to the LDS edition of the Bible.

As far as the question of whether each and every LDS prophet has seen Jesus: Off the top of my head, I can't think of any LDS prophet explicitly claiming to have done so since Lorenzo Snow in the very late 19th century. (And that was not initially a public statement; we know of it through a reminiscence recorded by his granddaughter.)

But IMHO: given that a) we know the prophet receives some form of revelation, and b) we know that some people in this day and age do see Jesus; it's not that big of a leap to assume that if anybody sees Jesus in this day and age, the prophet of His Church does.

[Just_A_Guy]

Dahlia -

The ideas of having one's calling and election made sure (in other words: the possibility that one can be given an unconditional promise of eternal life) and second comforter (in other words: the possibility that a believer can see Jesus Himself) are both reasonably firmly ensconced in Mormon doctrine. Both of these have references in the Bible Dictionary appended to the LDS edition of the Bible.

As far as the question of whether each and every LDS prophet has seen Jesus: Off the top of my head, I can't think of any LDS prophet explicitly claiming to have done so since Lorenzo Snow in the very late 19th century. (And that was not initially a public statement; we know of it through a reminiscence recorded by his granddaughter.)

IMHO: given that a) we know the prophet receives some form of revelation, and b) we know that some people in this day and age do see Jesus; it's not that big of a leap to assume that if anybody sees Jesus in this day and age, the prophet of His Church does. But, to respond to your question: No, it's not a condition of membership to believe that Tom Monson regularly sees (or even has seen) Jesus.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[HiJolly]

One of my elders told me that all the presidents of the church had seen Jesus Christ - is this what you're talking about? I assume I don't have to turn in my temple recommend if I don't believe this, right?

That's right, dahlia. No obligation on anyone's part to believe it. But I'll tell you, as one who moved to Utah 15 years ago, there are some people here who believe that anyone who doesn't believe it is a doubter and whose testimony is suspect. That's all baloney, of course, but there are people here like that -- even in my Sunday School class.

HiJolly