Men & Women: The differences

[annewandering]

There has to be a balance of 'power' in a marriage. Physically men can, and too often do, overpower women. But they are left with nothing without women. In this time, especially now, we probably could survive without men or with very few of them. Survive being the key word. We dont want to survive. We want to be eternal. To be eternal we have to both contribute to the marriage. Men contribute the power of the priesthood. It helps them catch up. ok just kidding. Vort dont worry.

[Hala401]

Well directing everyone back to the main point of my post.....about the punishment given to Adam and Eve...:)

So no one feels that that we are still living with the punishment that was given to Adam and Eve?? I think we are. Is it temporary for this earth's life? and if so what will change for women when Eve's punishments are removed?

Well, I'm probably going to get in trouble over this, I'm sorry.

I know a man who was the son of a Jewish rabbi, and who had gone to all the preparation to follow in his father's foot steps. He speaks a half dozen ancient languages and can read many more. I would say that this man's IQ could be close to twice mine. I have great confidence in this man's scholarship.

Some of the key scriptures in what we would call the Torah, according to him, don't say what we think. Much of the hate and vitriol we put in old testament founded beliefs are based upon flawed interpretation.

The most recent and most valuable information we know now days says that we are to love God, and to love one another. If you are in a relationship that makes you feel devalued, and punishable for displeasing a man, something is wrong.

[annewandering]

I see nothing wrong with that statement. at all.

[hopefulfaith]

you guys are good at going off on tangents

[Hala401]

Right...but she is choosing to interpret that verse in a particular (negative) manner and is saying that the men in the church "rule over" the women. So I am asking where it is she has specifically seen that this how the church teaches it. I am seeking expansion of her viewpoint beyond one solitary verse in the Bibel that can be intrepreted in a variety of ways, given her negative viewpoint on the subject. I am trying to understand where that viewpoint comes from.

I've worked on my own feelings of doubt and worthlessness for years; of being blamed for almost everything bad that happens. In modern secular parlance, those feelings are Dysfunctional and I had to go to secular sources to begin to understand and heal from those feelings. This was before my experience with the LDS, so I do not know if I had encountered them before the counseling, if said counseling would have been necessary.

It is still a process with me, and one of my roomates has advanced the idea that I am not wife material because I would easily be taken advantage of. I now see Heavenly Father as a loving, kind, teaching God now, but it was not always so.

[Misshalfway]

you guys are good at going off on tangents

Welcome to LDS.net. It's what we do best.

[Hala401]

you guys are good at going off on tangents

Not a tangent. I just question the translation of that particular passage. I lived through the years when the man took that passage literally. They were tough years and I came out very damaged.

Through the LDS Heavenly Father has healed so much.

You are not LDS are you? I invite you to think about that.

[hopefulfaith]

Right...but she is choosing to interpret that verse in a particular (negative) manner and is saying that the men in the church "rule over" the women. So I am asking where it is she has specifically seen that this how the church teaches it. I am seeking expansion of her viewpoint beyond one solitary verse in the Bible that can be interpreted in a variety of ways, given her negative viewpoint on the subject. I am trying to understand where that viewpoint comes from.

I've interpreted that part of the verse in context with the rest of the verses...pain in child birth, having to work hard to live... why would I interpret "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." as positive?

[hopefulfaith]

Not a tangent. I just question the translation of that particular passage. I lived through the years when the man took that passage literally. They were tough years and I came out very damaged.

Through the LDS Heavenly Father has healed so much.

You are not LDS are you? I invite you to think about that.

born and raised lds...even went on a mission... go to church every sunday....

just feel sad sometime that I won't be able to experience some of the same things as the men in church b/c I am a woman. So I just wonder is that a trial for women in this life or will it eternally be such. (and don't tell me that men feel excluded from childbirth b/c I know my husband is happily excluded from that one and he's not all that anxious to stay home and deal with kids all day)

[beefche]

born and raised lds...even went on a mission... go to church every sunday....

just feel sad sometime that I won't be able to experience some of the same things as the men in church b/c I am a woman. So I just wonder is that a trial for women in this life or will it eternally be such. (and don't tell me that men feel excluded from childbirth b/c I know my husband is happily excluded from that one and he's not all that anxious to stay home and deal with kids all day)

What things?

[Hala401]

I've interpreted that part of the verse in context with the rest of the verses...pain in child birth, having to work hard to live... why would I interpret "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." as positive?

Well, I suppose it would depend on your previous experience with men. The man who ruled over me was a brutal, angry, abusive, wounded man who only knew how to hurt me. Is that a Godly man? Is that what Heavenly Father wants?

I once knew a man, after my divorce, who was intellectual, smart, gentle, kind and while he was protective, he was never abusive. I would have married him without reservation. I'd have driven my own car, cooked his meals, kept his house with joy. If he'd told me not to go out because it was too late, too snowy, or for some other reason, I might have complained, even fought him, but I like to think that in the end, I would have obeyed.

Unfortunately, he had a stroke and died. There has not been anyone since.

[Vort]

What things?

Yes, I'm curious, too, what experiences men have in Church that are barred to women.

[Hala401]

Yes, I'm curious, too, what experiences men have in Church that are barred to women.

Um lets see, you guys get to take out the trash, do the set up at events, deal with guys who are weird, and lock up at night. As if I'd want to do that.

[Vort]

Um lets see, you guys get to take out the trash, do the set up at events, deal with guys who are weird, and lock up at night. As if I'd want to do that.

Setting up chairs is a deeply edifying experience.

[annewandering]

love it!!!!

[Iggy]

Um lets see, you guys get to take out the trash, do the set up at events, deal with guys who are weird, and lock up at night. As if I'd want to do that.

Hala, in my Branch the women set up for their RS meetings, evening meetings, stack the chairs after RS. We take out our own trash, vacuum the carpet in the RS Room, clean up and tidy the kitchen (which is off the RS Room) and mop the floor.

The men do drag out the tables from the closet and open the legs to set them upright, but it is us women who arrange the tables AND the chairs. We break down the tables and the men finally end up dragging them back into the closet.

Only once did we have a weird person show up at an evening meeting, uninvited. Us mere, helpless 'Lil Women Folk (said tongue in cheek) took care of him. After we handed him a bucket of cleaning solution, rubber gloves, cleaning cloths and barred his way from the restroom- made him clean up his disgusting mess. By the time he was done the Branch Pres and his 1st counselor were there and together they took the man to the men's homeless shelter in the next town. Our itty bitty town didn't have a homeless shelter.

It has only been since 2009 that our Branch has had a priesthood holder sit guard at evening meetings. My husband thought this Branch was foolish when he learned that it had taken them so long to implement that, until he met the sisters. We are not big, masculine females at all. We are no nonsense women. Most of us can either chop our own firewood-kindling, bake our bread from scratch, mop, sweep, mow lawns without power mowers.

When there are 5 women barring a homeless man from leaving the men's restroom

and are armed with brooms, two large mops and a rolling pin- what man in his RIGHT mind is going to argue???? He sure didn't. He cleaned up his mess and was absolutely relieved when the two men showed up and said they were taking him to safety in the next town.

And yes, the lone priesthood holder is responsible for making certain all the interior doors are shut, all lights are out, all water taps turned off, and all doors are locked when the evening meetings are over. BUT it us women who turn off the lights, shut the doors, turn off the water taps. HE has the key and he locks the doors.

[Dove]

born and raised lds...even went on a mission... go to church every sunday....

just feel sad sometime that I won't be able to experience some of the same things as the men in church b/c I am a woman. So I just wonder is that a trial for women in this life or will it eternally be such. (and don't tell me that men feel excluded from childbirth b/c I know my husband is happily excluded from that one and he's not all that anxious to stay home and deal with kids all day)

Hopefulfaith,

I relate a great deal to what you have said in your posts. Of course, to me, the obvious "thing" women will never be able to experience, as the men do, is holding the priesthood. My growing up years with my dad were hideous. If there was a dictionary with the definition of "one who abuses his priesthood authority," my dad's picture should be there.

However, as I grew up and found other, kinder and more loving priesthood holders (seminary teachers/Institute leaders/bishops) I was introduced to receiving priesthood blessings. This was a real stepping stone to me in not associating my father's abusiveness with the priesthood....I really gained a testimony of our Heavenly Father's love and knowledge of me as well as how inspired the blessings given me were.

I, too, have struggled knowing that for many years in my family, the men were placed on pedestals where they were honored and obeyed regardless of how evil their actions were. This was just plain wrong, imo. To this day, I can see where I have placed too much trust in people with authority (i.e., medical doctors) because of this teaching. I still hope that women will be listened to and heeded more. I believe progress can still be made in acknowledging women's inherent equality. (Traveler, I am using "equality" in a different way than you here.)

But, again, whether or not I hold the priesthood doesn't take away my agency as to whether or not I will support and uphold the righteous/unrighteous priesthood holder in his calling...I believe this is why a vote is given to support others in their callings. When we raise our hands to support that person, I believe it is in reference to our baptismal covenants of promising to support each other. Yet, they do ask if any are opposed. While I have never seen anyone raise their hand to oppose, that option is there. It is more about my commitment to support than anything else. Were I in a situation where I seriously doubted my ability to support another person in their calling, I definitely hope I would have the courage to raise my hand to that effect.

Dove

[Hala401]

In our ward of perhaps 100 people, I've run into a couple males who "thought they were all that". (Independence Day) One of them, I told that if I had not met the Sisters first (Kirtland Ohio) that it would never have happened for me. Muslim women do not talk to the men. Later on, I found out that Sister Missionaries are 40% more effective than Elders.

The men in our family were Bridge Trolls, but since becoming LDS, my experience is that the men are nicer than what I had previously experienced. So, I wonder if this idea of men as beasts come from just LDS women or if the same is true of the general population?

[Leah]

I've interpreted that part of the verse in context with the rest of the verses...pain in child birth, having to work hard to live... why would I interpret "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." as positive?

This still doesn't explain why you think the LDS church teaches that men "rule" over the women. You are merely casting your own opinion onto one verse in the Bible.

How does the natural physical pain of childbirth and having to work to live translate into men ruling over women?

Men and women are different. I don't think being different automatically translates into something negative or one party "ruling" over another or being unequal.

God made men and women different. I've never had any need to argue with that, so I am always curious as to why people feel constrained by their gender.

[Dove]

In our ward of perhaps 100 people, I've run into a couple males who "thought they were all that". (Independence Day) One of them, I told that if I had not met the Sisters first (Kirtland Ohio) that it would never have happened for me. Muslim women do not talk to the men. Later on, I found out that Sister Missionaries are 40% more effective than Elders.

The men in our family were Bridge Trolls, but since becoming LDS, my experience is that the men are nicer than what I had previously experienced. So, I wonder if this idea of men as beasts come from just LDS women or if the same is true of the general population?

Hala,

This idea that "men as beasts" may come from the examples set from the men who are. Everything I've stated on this thread about my experiences is true. I've related personal experiences about my father that have had a profound effect on my life. You, yourself have talked about an abusive relationship you were in from the past. It seems now that you are downplaying this topic, making light of it, and blaming the "LDS women" for even stating it, rather than considering that it may be true. Why?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not wanting to attack you or your comments. I just feel it is a disservice to all of us who have been subject to "unrighteous dominion" to then be told we're wrong for bringing it to light...

Also, I fully acknowledge the many righteous and humble priesthood holders who do fulfill their callings in a Christ-like manner. This isn't about male-bashing for me. It is about bringing attention to a very serious matter that should be able to be recognized, addressed and discussed.

I am so grateful for the conference talks that have been given which strongly condemn unrighteous dominion and abusive conduct. It's wonderful to have the support of our leaders in rectifying such a problem.

Dove

[Hala401]

Hala,

This idea that "men as beasts" may come from the examples set from the men who are. Everything I've stated on this thread about my experiences is true. I've related personal experiences about my father that have had a profound effect on my life. You, yourself have talked about an abusive relationship you were in from the past. It seems now that you are downplaying this topic, making light of it, and blaming the "LDS women" for even stating it, rather than considering that it may be true. Why?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not wanting to attack you or your comments. I just feel it is a disservice to all of us who have been subject to "unrighteous dominion" to then be told we're wrong for bringing it to light...

Also, I fully acknowledge the many righteous and humble priesthood holders who do fulfill their callings in a Christ-like manner. This isn't about male-bashing for me. It is about bringing attention to a very serious matter that should be able to be recognized, addressed and discussed.

I am so grateful for the conference talks that have been given which strongly condemn unrighteous dominion and abusive conduct. It's wonderful to have the support of our leaders in rectifying such a problem.

Dove

I am sorry if you feel that I was minimising your experiences. I did not mean to.

Something I can not explain however, is that I was like so totally bitter and consumed with hatred for my step father that it was destroying me and I knew it. Somehow, Heavenly Father has healed me of my anger, and hatred for him and I thank him for it.

I am sure that if I had a man in my life, I would be really ready to protest any abuse or what I felt was unfair treatment. I am such a new LDS member that I really know very little about LDS culture. This term Unrighteous Dominion sounds really unpleasant to me.

So, if you have a father or husband that is doing that, can you appeal to the Bishop or RS President? I was not raised to be, "a sweet Mormon girl", and I must admit that the Sisters most often admonished me to be sweet.

I have heard a comment or two that makes me wonder about LDS women who attend college. Apparently there is some sort of Marriage and Family life curriculum that women take, and I have been quite jealous that I will never experience that. I would have liked to go into marriage, armed with the tools to be a better wife than I was.

I think that perhaps being in the LDS culture, life may be more like women experienced pre-WWII where most women stayed home and most women worked? I am just asking questions here, trying to understand.

[Dove]

PS~ Here are some links to conference talks speaking of this.....

Personal Worthiness to Exercise the Priesthood - general-conference

Priesthood Power - general-conference

Priesthood Power - general-conference

Only upon the Principles of Righteousness - Liahona May 2012 - liahona

These are just a few of what I found.

[Hala401]

PS~ Here are some links to conference talks speaking of this.....

Personal Worthiness to Exercise the Priesthood - general-conference

Priesthood Power - general-conference

Priesthood Power - general-conference

Only upon the Principles of Righteousness - Liahona May 2012 - liahona

These are just a few of what I found.

I was just looking at your time stamp. Are you in Europe? Is there that much difference in LDS culture between there and Portland, Oregon. It's 8:51 here. Also, are there talks about how to be a good LDS woman and proper wife?

[Dravin]

Her location says United States. I'm Eastern Time, so as late as you can get, and I'm online, though admittedly about to head to bed.

[Dove]

I am sorry if you feel that I was minimising your experiences. I did not mean to.

Something I can not explain however, is that I was like so totally bitter and consumed with hatred for my step father that it was destroying me and I knew it. Somehow, Heavenly Father has healed me of my anger, and hatred for him and I thank him for it.

I am sure that if I had a man in my life, I would be really ready to protest any abuse or what I felt was unfair treatment. I am such a new LDS member that I really know very little about LDS culture. This term Unrighteous Dominion sounds really unpleasant to me.

So, if you have a father or husband that is doing that, can you appeal to the Bishop or RS President? I was not raised to be, "a sweet Mormon girl", and I must admit that the Sisters most often admonished me to be sweet.

I have heard a comment or two that makes me wonder about LDS women who attend college. Apparently there is some sort of Marriage and Family life curriculum that women take, and I have been quite jealous that I will never experience that. I would have liked to go into marriage, armed with the tools to be a better wife than I was.

I think that perhaps being in the LDS culture, life may be more like women experienced pre-WWII where most women stayed home and most women worked? I am just asking questions here, trying to understand.

Thank you, Hala.

Yes, it is a long journey to forgive and to love. One I am working/traveling on.....

I would imagine the Marriage and Family life curriculum that you mentioned would be offered at BYU. You may be able to find it as an online course. It wouldn't hurt to look it up (sorry, I don't know the web address) at BYU and find out.

Ideally, woman are meant to stay in the home and raise children. However, with our economy as it is this is becoming less and less possible for families in our church. The brethren have identified this and counseled concerning it in past general conferences. LDSorg is a great place to search the current standing on this.

My own mom appealed to her Bishop and Stake Pres. when deciding to divorce my dad. I believe their support of her really helped her gain the courage to finally leave him. Yes, they were supportive.

Dove