Men & Women: The differences

[Hala401]

Her location says United States. I'm Eastern Time, so as late as you can get, and I'm online, though admittedly about to head to bed.

Her time stamp says 3:44 AM. I mean if she is using an anomomizer that is fine. I use it once in a while to watch UK TV. :)

BTW, are there LDS.org messages to show women how to be better LDS women and wives. It is a bit rough for a brand new LDS woman to understand the culture, especially one like me.

[Dove]

I was just looking at your time stamp. Are you in Europe? Is there that much difference in LDS culture between there and Portland, Oregon. It's 8:51 here. Also, are there talks about how to be a good LDS woman and proper wife?

I'm sure there are. I go to "classic" lds.org and type key words/phrases into the search engine. You can look up subjects in any of the material they provide. I.E., scriptures, conference talks and the like.

I would suggest looking up "woman's role," "motherhood" and "wife" to start with.....

[Dove]

Also, I'm mountain standard time, in Salt Lake City, UT. It's 10pm my time

[Hala401]

Thank you, Hala.

Yes, it is a long journey to forgive and to love. One I am working/traveling on.....

I would imagine the Marriage and Family life curriculum that you mentioned would be offered at BYU. You may be able to find it as an online course. It wouldn't hurt to look it up (sorry, I don't know the web address) at BYU and find out.

Ideally, woman are meant to stay in the home and raise children. However, with our economy as it is this is becoming less and less possible for families in our church. The brethren have identified this and counseled concerning it in past general conferences. LDSorg is a great place to search the current standing on this.

My own mom appealed to her Bishop and Stake Pres. when deciding to divorce my dad. I believe their support of her really helped her gain the courage to finally leave him. Yes, they were supportive.

Dove

I do so wish that I had been LDS in the 50's. I tried to escape my stepfather once and was put in a juvenile detention home. I was raped there. When they wanted to send me home, I went because even the beatings were not like rape. My parents were livid at me and for the next two years, I went to school, and then straight to my room, then to the kitchen to eat, and back to my room until time for school the next day. I could not have anyone over. It broke me, and I never did anything to make him mad again.

[Dravin]

Her time stamp says 3:44 AM. I mean if she is using an anomomizer that is fine. I use it once in a while to watch UK TV. :)

BTW, are there LDS.org messages to show women how to be better LDS women and wives. It is a bit rough for a brand new LDS woman to understand the culture, especially one like me.

The time stamps for posts on the board adjust themselves to the viewer's time settings. For example the time stamp for the above post shows to me as 11:59 PM. The post of hers you quoted when asking about the time stamp shows up as 11:44 PM for me, if it is showing up as 3:44 AM for you, and it was 8:51 PM when you posted your question about her time zone then your time settings for the board aren't set properly.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Dravin

[Dove]

I do so wish that I had been LDS in the 50's. I tried to escape my stepfather once and was put in a juvenile detention home. I was raped there. When they wanted to send me home, I went because even the beatings were not like rape. My parents were livid at me and for the next two years, I went to school, and then straight to my room, then to the kitchen to eat, and back to my room until time for school the next day. I could not have anyone over. It broke me, and I never did anything to make him mad again.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.....I'm so glad you are still here to talk about it....

Unfortunately, while my dad physically abused my two oldest siblings more than me (I don't remember ever getting beat by him, though I saw him do awful things to my brothers and sisters. I was the youngest and think perhaps he had mellowed in this by the time I came along.) I got the sexual abuse. What little I remember is quite traumatic to me...I believe I was quite young when it started. I had no idea this had happened until my mission. Tests showed sexual abuse. Then after my mission the Lord kept bringing it to my attention. I went through a process of memory recall and, because I kept screaming as the memories came back, the person guiding me cut it short.

The only thing I can say today is that I try to repent of the behavior problems it has caused me. I want to forgive my dad. For me, it's more about utilizing the atonement in my life and focusing on what the Savior suffered for me so that I can have healing. Trusting God is so important.

Dove

[Hala401]

I started my experience at the Kirtland, Ohio visitor's center, and the Atonement was a huge obstacle for me also. In the three months that I met the Sisters while still in Ohio, I left there weeping a few times because I knew that Heavenly Father would not accept me without my forgiving others who'd hurt me, and I simply could not do it, no matter how hard I tried. I so wanted the Atonement in my life, but I knew I was not worthy, not with what I had done. My sins were too serious and deep.

I started all this on March 13, 2011 and was in Ohio until June of that year. I cried so hard when I had to return to Oregon. I was heart broken. Then when I got to Oregon and found out that I would be meeting with Elders, I almost broke off teaching, I just was not going to face men again.

After we started meeting, one of the men who sat with the Elders made me so angry that I stared to walk out a few times, but one of the Sisters helped me to calm down and sit again. He was the one who said that I had to meet with the Elders to be properly taught and I do not know how I stood it. I was most disrespectful to him, even calling him buster! Somehow, the Holy Spirit calmed me enough to focus on God's will and ignore this guy. It was very hard for me. And I could not imagine how the Elders would keep working with me because I was so resistant.

It is a miracle. I was baptized on Jan 31st, 2012, so I've had a lot of calming down to do. I feel bad because I am not a better, more sweet LDS woman.

[Dove]

Ahh, Hala, I appreciate you for who you are! I think of all that you've been through and respect how kind you've been here since I've been reading your posts....

You do seem like a "sweet LDS woman," to me!

Don't forget that not any of us are perfect.....We all need the atonement desperately in our lives. Every one of us. It is the atonement that saves us from eternal damnation.

I appreciate your humility and honesty. Please don't worry about measuring up to an ideal that most likely doesn't exist. i.e., we all fall short of the glory of God...we all are carnal....we all have faults and failings. Hence, the absolute requirement for the Atonement to save our lives...

[Hala401]

Ahh, Hala, I appreciate you for who you are! I think of all that you've been through and respect how kind you've been here since I've been reading your posts....

You do seem like a "sweet LDS woman," to me!

Don't forget that not any of us are perfect.....We all need the atonement desperately in our lives. Every one of us. It is the atonement that saves us from eternal damnation.

I appreciate your humility and honesty. Please don't worry about measuring up to an ideal that most likely doesn't exist. i.e., we all fall short of the glory of God...we all are carnal....we all have faults and failings. Hence, the absolute requirement for the Atonement to save our lives...

I don't want to hold you. I know it is late in Utah.

My LDS story is like a storybook to me, and I've seen things; had things happen that let me know that Heavenly Father was watching me very closely. I will do my best to please him.

Good night

Hala

[beefche]

Later on, I found out that Sister Missionaries are 40% more effective than Elders.

Where did you get that statistic?

[Hala401]

Where did you get that statistic?

Ask a Sister Missionary. I heard this from one of the Elders. It is not a secret.

[beefche]

I am not asking a sister or elder. If that is where you got it, then it isn't a statistic--it's an opinion. "Success" has to be defined and since there are significantly more Elders than sisters, I'm gonig to say by shear numbers alone, that statistic would favor the Elders rather than the sisters.

[Vort]

Ask a Sister Missionary. I heard this from one of the Elders. It is not a secret.

It's also not true. It is true that sisters can teach certain people that won't allow the elders in the door (though the opposite is also true). It is also true that the sisters are usually a couple of years older than the elders and, therefore, somewhat more mature, so one might expect the sisters on average to be more effective. But missionaries are effective in proportion to how much they dedicate themselves to the work and how hard they work. It is possible that, on average, sisters are marginally more effective missionaries than elders, but I don't believe it's an enormous gap. And at the level of the individual missionary, it's irrelevant. The best missionary our ward ever had was Elder Allred, a man, despite the fact that we have been blessed with a great many sister missionaries, many of whom were very effective.

[Traveler]

Ask a Sister Missionary. I heard this from one of the Elders. It is not a secret.

Hmmmm - I am not sure that it is in these things or kind of things that G-d would have us differentiate male and female.

The Traveler

[Hala401]

OK, you men are pushing me into a corner here, and I did agree to try to be respectful to men. I am not lying. I believe what I say, and I have heard it from more than one place. I don't have access to the MTC but perhaps a Brother can do it.

[beefche]

I am not a man, nor am I pushing you into a corner. I do not think you are lying, but what we are saying is that getting that type of statistic from a 19 year old or 21 year old who has no idea of the over 50,000 missionaries throughout the world is very, very unreliable.

As far as I know, no type of statistic is done regarding the missionary work other than the number of missionaries and missions there are. We cannot define success by number of baptisms as it is the Spirit who converts, not the missionary.

[Vort]

OK, you men are pushing me into a corner here, and I did agree to try to be respectful to men. I am not lying. I believe what I say, and I have heard it from more than one place. I don't have access to the MTC but perhaps a Brother can do it.

Not sure why you feel pushed into a corner. You expressed an opinion or idea and I disagreed with it. But I wasn't saying I thought you were a liar or a bad person. I just don't believe that sisters are 40% more effective than elders (or whatever the statistic was).

Also, this isn't about men vs. women. The fact that I'm male and you're female is (in my opinion) not relevant to the conversation. I would have said the same thing to a man. And I have been corrected by women before, many times, on this very forum. It's all good.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Vort

[Hala401]

Well, let me first say that I love the Church and the people in it. I haven't had a good relationship with men, and joining the Church has been a great healing and surprise to me. I am sorry for my impertinence.

It seems that there are several purposes for Missionary service in our church. Only one of them is to lead people to Jesus Christ. It seems as if another benefit of missionary service for the young is to help them mature in a Christ like way.

I am sorry if I was unfair in my analysis.

[Vort]

I am sorry if I was unfair in my analysis.

No apologies necessary. I would just like to be able to converse freely with you without always being afraid I'm going to hurt your feelings.

[Hala401]

No apologies necessary. I would just like to be able to converse freely with you without always being afraid I'm going to hurt your feelings.

Thank you. Heavenly Father has healed me of so much. Perhaps he would consider giving me the healthy relationship with men that I so need?

[Dove]

I'm sure the church office building may know what the statistic is.....They keep good records of all the church's missionary work/baptisms/growth, etc.

Hala, I guess that on something so sensitive to others, a valid statistic would be important rather than hearsay.

[Dravin]

I'm sure the church office building may know what the statistic is.....They keep good records of all the church's missionary work/baptisms/growth, etc.

Hala, I guess that on something so sensitive to others, a valid statistic would be important rather than hearsay.

Actually it wouldn't surprise me if the sex of missionaries gets 'lost' as numbers get kicked on the way up the chain. HQ is going to get it's numbers from the mission field and generally as numbers get kicked upstairs they tend to get pooled. I'm sure HQ can give you quite a lot of statistics, but some statistics aren't worth cataloging, for instance the number of baptisms Missionaries with the last name Young have versus missionaries with the last name Smith. The raw data for such a comparison may be retrievable but it's an unknown statistic as there is no point in doing statistical analysis that has no real use.

Also as noted there is the issue of defining effectiveness*. But who knows, I suppose it's possible that somewhere in at HQ the stats are kept track of comparing Sisters to Elders, but some missionaries in the mission field likely aren't going to be aware of it.

*For example some metrics, such as baptisms or multiple lessons taught to an investigator, would make Temple Square sisters ineffective. If we go by referrals though they may be the most effective missionaries in the Church. This makes how one is going to define effectiveness a non-trivial matter to reaching a determination of effectiveness.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Dravin

[beefche]

Hala, I guess that on something so sensitive to others, a valid statistic would be important rather than hearsay.

Here's why I objected to that heresay. First, missionary work is hard--very hard. We ask that 19 year old boys leave home and friends (possibly the first time for many of them) and put themselves in a position to be ridiculed, harrassed, and threatened (in some cases). They already get a beating from the environment and from Satan. By saying Sisters are more effective by a whopping 40% just beats them down even more.

Further, I really, really, really, dislike this culture of women are better than men that seems so prevalent in the world and even in this church. By a bogus heresay which says that men are 40% ineffective at what is considered an obligation of the priesthood is just another way of saying that women are better than men.

So yeah, I am sensitive to my father, husband, and brothers constantly being told they aren't good enough and failures.

[Leah]

Here's why I objected to that heresay. First, missionary work is hard--very hard. We ask that 19 year old boys leave home and friends (possibly the first time for many of them) and put themselves in a position to be ridiculed, harrassed, and threatened (in some cases). They already get a beating from the environment and from Satan. By saying Sisters are more effective by a whopping 40% just beats them down even more.

Further, I really, really, really, dislike this culture of women are better than men that seems so prevalent in the world and even in this church. By a bogus heresay which says that men are 40% ineffective at what is considered an obligation of the priesthood is just another way of saying that women are better than men.

So yeah, I am sensitive to my father, husband, and brothers constantly being told they aren't good enough and failures.

I find that a lot of people latch onto statistics (and other things) that best fit their own agenda..whether it be all men are 'evil', poor victimized me, or something else....even when those "statistics" do not come with any documentation or basis in facts.

I am not buying this statistic without anything more than "I heard", to back it up.

[Hala401]

Here's why I objected to that heresay. First, missionary work is hard--very hard. We ask that 19 year old boys leave home and friends (possibly the first time for many of them) and put themselves in a position to be ridiculed, harrassed, and threatened (in some cases). They already get a beating from the environment and from Satan. By saying Sisters are more effective by a whopping 40% just beats them down even more.

Further, I really, really, really, dislike this culture of women are better than men that seems so prevalent in the world and even in this church. By a bogus heresay which says that men are 40% ineffective at what is considered an obligation of the priesthood is just another way of saying that women are better than men.

So yeah, I am sensitive to my father, husband, and brothers constantly being told they aren't good enough and failures.

Well, you of course do have some good points. First let me say, I am sorry and will try to be more sensitive.

I was just down scrubbing the kitchen floor on my hands and knees, and it occured to me that it would be benefical for me to spend more time in that position, but praying to Heavenly Father for guidance.

As I worked, I was disturbed by our exchange earlier, and as often happens when I am working, it came to me that perhaps my bile with males could be coming from my present experience with one of them, right now. So, I actually was guilty of generalizing about men.

And, you are right in saying that our current society emasculates men. A woman I know was so hostile toward men that the poor fellow, her husband, eventually just crumbled. From my family's experience with him, he was a prince of a fellow.

I must confess that I too have seen the feminist attitude about men in my own Ward and I have been playing into it. I repent of this, and hope that Heavenly Father will guide me further in this.