Because you HAVE to

[pooter1]

Ive been thinking about another post I wrote.I told my son he could not have his girlfriend sleep in the same room with him because I could get in trouble with the church.I got some backlash with this post because some people thought I was blaming the church.I was so confused by this.It has come to my attention that I still believe that. There are things in the gospel that Im not for sure about but I keep "the rules" because I don't want to get in trouble. I do not like paying my tithing but I do it because Im suppose to.Im not sure I have a testimony of it but I do it. Is there anyone else out there like me.You do things because your suppose to and your told not to do it even if you don't believe it?

[Guest gopecon]

I think a lot of us keep some rules more out of obedience than out of true conversion to the principle. You will hear some people who say that if you have a bad attitude about something like tithing, its better to not do it at all. I respectfully disagree with that. If we are obedient to commandments, we will be blessed for that obedience. Yes it is better to do it cheerfully, but its better to do it than to not. Often when we are obedient we will strengthen and develop our testimonies of different principles in a way that won't happen if we sit around and wait to feel good about it.

[FunkyTown]

I agree. You do it because you have to.

I have never had the heavens open up to rain down blessings so great I wouldn't be able to take it in.

I've never been in a terrible position.

On the other hand, I have never been laid off and have rarely gone hungry, and never gone hungry for economic reasons.

I tithe because I'm supposed to, and because I think it's the right thing to do, and not because I have some cosmic experience of tithing that has confirmed my testimony of it.

[Gwen]

I see that approach as a first step. I don't think god wants us to actually "fear" him, do things to avoid getting in trouble. That may be a starting reason but I think the goal is for it to change. We should have a change of heart so that we desire to do the right thing for the right reason.

I can understand the struggle with your son. You want to keep the church standards (no unmarried sleeping in the same bed/room) but then you also love your son and want to respect his agency and what is important to him. While it is a fine line I do think you can do both. No sharing a bed in your house but that does not mean you have to fuss at him every time you see him about co-habbitation. If you visit him you have no right to tell them to change what they always do to accomidate you, he has that agency. If it makes you uncomfortable then don't visit, if it doesn't bother you and you have your house rules for church reasons only then visit all you like.

Back to the OP when I was a teenager I did a lot for the sake of doing it and didn't have any real testimony of it. As I've learned to seperate culture from doctrine there is less stress when doing things for the sake of doing it. I find, in the end, I agree with many of the doctrines. It's the culture, habits/opinions, and policy of the church (or members) that get to me. Some of those I follow for the sake of it but I'm not desiring or expecting to gain a testimony of it, I do it because I was asked. Other things I speak up on.

For example.... In your other thread there was an interview with Pres. Oaks quoted. I totally disagree with some of the advise given. I won't follow it. It's not doctrine but advise from someone in authority. Advise from a man, not a commandment from God. I don't feel obligated to follow it.

I have a sister who has a female partner. They wear wedding bands though they are not married. They have a fairly good relationship. I would never dream of saying something like this to her.

Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.”

I introduce them to ppl, to my children, go out places with them, etc. They don't ask to stay overnight in our home because they know it's against our religious beliefs and would not ask us to make that decision. But we are always welcome in their home. I don't think loving someone in private but denying them in public is true unconditional love. That kind of behavior is insulting to the person you claim to love, even God warns against doing that to him. If my sister were to say to me, "I'll see you but don't expect to meet my friends because I don't want them knowing I have family that are mormon" ppl here would freak out. Everyone would be upset about that but that's exactly what was advised to do with non member family. That makes me sick to think about.

I have a brother covered in tattoos and piercings. We go places, even had ppl ask if we are married. lol I have family that smokes, when they want to smoke they step away from me so I don't have to smell it. They respect my life choices and I give them the same. I don't deny them anymore than I hide that I'm LDS.

Things I do because I'm asked to if I want to or not.... being on the church cleaning roatation, accepting a call as librarian, sometimes teaching lessons or giving talks.....

As long as something doesn't go against what I feel to be an ultimate doctrinal truth then I will do them. I do believe god can make anything to our benefit. If I do what I'm asked I can learn and grow from it even if it wasn't an "inspired" request. I honor my temple covenants and then I do the best I can from there.

When I struggle with something that is doctrinal, after researching and confirming it is a doctrine, then I work on gaining a testimony of it. Do it until I understand it, until I know, until I desire to do it.

[Gwen]

I do not like paying my tithing but I do it because Im suppose to.Im not sure I have a testimony of it but I do it.

I agree. You do it because you have to.

I have never had the heavens open up to rain down blessings so great I wouldn't be able to take it in.

I've never been in a terrible position.

On the other hand, I have never been laid off and have rarely gone hungry, and never gone hungry for economic reasons.

I tithe because I'm supposed to, and because I think it's the right thing to do, and not because I have some cosmic experience of tithing that has confirmed my testimony of it.

Tithing can be a very difficut one because of those reasons. Until you are in a bad situation you don't see the blessings. We miss them if we aren't looking.

When we get up at the beginning of the day and pray for safety do we remember it and consider it an answered prayer when we return home safely at the end of the day? I think most of us forget to see that blessing, we take it for granted. Tithing is the same way.

Something that opened my eyes about tithing happened when we were put in a situation that we were required to "prove" we couldn't afford more for something than we were already paying. We had to fill out a form that took most of our expenses into account but not "optional" things like tithing. When we got done with the form it said each month we were busting by about 10%. If you throw in the math of paying tithing then it should have been 20%. At the time things were very tight and we did bust many months but not to that extent. The times we went the most over is when we delayed paying tithing, out of concern of going over, and we almost always went over by 10%. Because things were always tight and we lived day to day I remember being upset and asking where those tithing blessings are. If we had not been forced to fill out that paper I would have never seen where the tithing blessings were. I was upset over blessings I couldn't see so I thought they weren't there when all along they are what kept us afloat.

When we have commands that have invisible blessings I think we should try to get our heart to a place where we do it because god asked us to and we desire to follow him rather than to avoid getting into trouble.

[NeuroTypical]

I hate ties. I absolutely despise stiff white collars and ties. They're uncomfortable. They itch. I have to pay to launder shirts.

But I wear a suit to church, because I'm supposed to. If you see me driving out of the parking lot after the block is over, you'll see me frantically pulling out my tie and unbuttoning the top buttons. But when I'm in church, I'm appropriately attired.

[Truegrits]

I wear only one pair if earrings to church, because I'm supposed to, I'm appropriately attired...

but when church is over I get to wear a third earring. Oh, wait...I do not get to wear an extra earring, even out of church...bummer! Not fair.

[pooter1]

I can't remember the talk or the quote maybe you can help me. It was about if you love keeping the commandments you are living the celestial law.If you do it because you have to you are living telestial law. I know where I fit right now.How do you learn to love what you are doing and not because its what you are suppose to do?

[beefche]

There is a whole lot to be said for simple obedience. Look at Adam. He gave sacrifices and had no idea why--but he was obedient. This type of obedience is linked to faith--real faith. You do something even though you don't know why because God said so.

I, personally, do not believe that we will do the things God asks of us in this life because we love to do it (or even because we understand it completely). That would mean we are perfect and not mortal and that is impossible. I think that with some things we can learn to do it with joy, but that many things are done simply because we have been taught to do so.

[Guest]

One of my favorite passages lately is from Alma (italics mine, and I apologize for the quick paste. I need to get going):

27But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than adesire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your cheart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own alikeness.

[Gwen]

There is a difference in "I do it because God asked me to and I want to obey God" and "I do it because I'm afraid God will punish me"

In my opinion.... do something for the first... wonderful... the second... priorities need to be re-examined.

[Backroads]

There is a difference in "I do it because God asked me to and I want to obey God" and "I do it because I'm afraid God will punish me"

In my opinion.... do something for the first... wonderful... the second... priorities need to be re-examined.

Ditto.

In reference to your other post... many of the responses agreed you would not get in trouble with the Church. You were comparing apples and oranges. The Church has no policy when it comes to house rules like that--so no, you can't blame the Church. That what was discussed there.

Here... the ideal is to do things because you want to, but we don't have all the answers, all the information. So here comes blind obedience.

There's a lot of stuff I do because the Church tells me so. I might not do it otherwise. But I can't think of anything from that category where I feel completely bitter.

I believe that if you are doing things out of obedience but whining and complaining and holding a grudge... that's where the "better off not doing them" comes in. There's other principles of faith you need to work on.

Lamen and Lemuel obeyed lots of things...

[RescueMom]

I don't pay my tithing because of 'fire insurance' or because I'm supposed to. I do it because I am a sinner who has only the atonement to cling too, I owe God, he's given me 100% of everything, the breath in my lungs, the hair on my head, the job I have, my house, my country, my kids, everythng including the Body of Christ that saves me from death, the Blood of Christ that saves my very soul from hell...I feel it an honor to give back to him.

He's given me 100% of the pie, and it's the best tasting pie ever, and he simply wants to sit with me and eat 10th of it.

[JudoMinja]

Following the commandments for any reason is good, because you are still following the commandments. It is better than being disobedient. However, we should all be striving to be obedient for the right reasons, because certain motivations strive us to do more and be better while others may garner only temporary half-way obedience.

For example, if we do what we are told because we are afraid of punishment, we may see others who are not being obedient and are not receiving any visible punishment. We only do what we think is absolutely necessary to avoid that punishment, walking the line and giving it a stinted effort. When we don't see any visible blessings coming for our obedience, we start thinking there may not be any truth to this afterall. We start wondering if we really will be punished and eventually give up on obedience.

If we obey because we are interested in dating someone else who is adament about the church... what happens when that relationship falls apart? Another example of misplaced reasons or motivation for following the commandments that is all too common. Sometimes, it leads one to gaining a strong testimony, but more often it falls to pieces.

There are many other reasons that can motivate us to live righteously. I don't think the Lord really cares what our motivation is, at first, because just living righteously is a good thing! Any good is still good. Any righteousness is still righteousness. The problem is that misplaced motivations do not bring about LASTING righteousness. So, if we do not find ourselves cultivating within our hearts the proper motivation, we eventually end up falling away.

I think we all have areas of the gospel where our motivation may not be all that strong, and many of us have several aspects of the gospel where our testimony is very strong and very centralized. Testimonies are built gradually in little pieces and segments, as long as we don't give up on our righteous living and can recognize the blessings we receive for doing so. When we hit hard times, do we lose our faith, or do we cling more tightly to it? That is what will determine whether or not we build in ourselves a lasting dedication to the gospel.

[MormonMama]

I hate ties. I absolutely despise stiff white collars and ties. They're uncomfortable. They itch. I have to pay to launder shirts.

But I wear a suit to church, because I'm supposed to. If you see me driving out of the parking lot after the block is over, you'll see me frantically pulling out my tie and unbuttoning the top buttons. But when I'm in church, I'm appropriately attired.

Lol! That's my DH. He came from a church where all the members and staff dressed casually. Shorts, t-shirts, that kind of thing. He HATES dressing up and gets out of his church clothes ASAP when church is over. I hate dressing up too, as a matter of fact. I'm totally a shorts, t-shirt, barefoot kind of person. But I dress up for church because I'm supposed to. I don't have to like it, but neither do I dwell on it. I just do it.

Two years ago our ward split and we found ourselves in a new ward with almost no one we knew from the old ward, and no one at all that we'd been friends with. I wasn't comfortable in the new ward at all, not with the new bishop, not with anyone. I hated it. I was miserable. But I accepted that I had to attend the ward I lived in the boundaries for. Now, I LOVE this ward. I have many friends here and I absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVE our bishop! If I had refused to accept the change and gone to a ward I wasn't supposed to attend, I would have missed out on the blessings that my new ward has brought to me. It took me almost two years to see those blessings (or maybe I should say it took me that long to recognize them).

Sometimes we just can't see the blessings right away. Sometimes we just don't even GET the blessings right away. Maybe on some things we won't even get the blessings in this life. We just have to trust that we are doing the right thing in following whatever the Lord asks or commands and that we will be blessed eventually.

He's given me 100% of the pie, and it's the best tasting pie ever, and he simply wants to sit with me and eat 10th of it.

I absolutely LOVE the way you put this! I think it's a great way to look at it!

Edited August 1, 2011 by MormonMama

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ive been thinking about another post I wrote.I told my son he could not have his girlfriend sleep in the same room with him because I could get in trouble with the church.I got some backlash with this post because some people thought I was blaming the church.I was so confused by this.It has come to my attention that I still believe that. There are things in the gospel that Im not for sure about but I keep "the rules" because I don't want to get in trouble. I do not like paying my tithing but I do it because Im suppose to.Im not sure I have a testimony of it but I do it. Is there anyone else out there like me.You do things because your suppose to and your told not to do it even if you don't believe it?

Of course, this life is a test of faith. If we understood everything then it wouldn't be a test of faith at all. The more we practice our faith the more it grows.

[applepansy]

I hate ties. I absolutely despise stiff white collars and ties. They're uncomfortable. They itch. I have to pay to launder shirts.

But I wear a suit to church, because I'm supposed to. If you see me driving out of the parking lot after the block is over, you'll see me frantically pulling out my tie and unbuttoning the top buttons. But when I'm in church, I'm appropriately attired.

I want to see the video. Probably looks just like my hubby and the rest of the men pulling out of the church parking lot.

[Guest Sachi001]

Ive been thinking about another post I wrote.I told my son he could not have his girlfriend sleep in the same room with him because I could get in trouble with the church.I got some backlash with this post because some people thought I was blaming the church.I was so confused by this.It has come to my attention that I still believe that. There are things in the gospel that I'm not for sure about but I keep "the rules" because I don't want to get in trouble. I do not like paying my tithing but I do it because I'm suppose to.I'm not sure I have a testimony of it but I do it. Is there anyone else out there like me.You do things because your suppose to and your told not to do it even if you don't believe it?

Jacob 2: 27:28

27Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none;

28For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

As the head of household you are supposed to lead as authority like a PH. Your house should be a house of order. Your son does not rule the home or do you? You oversee such, and since you live the Law of Chastity you should expect no less just because he is having a tantrum. He can get a hotel room, but don't sacrifice the sanctity of your home.

Second on your tithing. I'm sure there are many who squirm when the subject comes up. However to be obedient is not enough. You must give with joy in your heart, or don't insult the Lord with an attitude of resentfulness. This is related in Abel freely and with joy of love toward his HF by giving a tenth of his finest flock vs. Cain who gave a tenth of his crop. However what displeased the Lord the most was how resentful Cain was to give his tithe. It's like someone give you a gift but does it in a snarly way that they had to get you one. You would not appreciate such, right?

Gen 4:3-7

3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4And Abel, he also brought of the afirstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto bAbel and to his coffering:

5But unto aCain and to his boffering he had not crespect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be aaccepted? and if thou bdoest not well, csin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be dhis edesire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Sachi001

[Dravin]

However what displeased the Lord the most was how resentful Cain was to give his tithe.

Actually what probably irked the Lord the most was how Cain gave his tithe by the commandment of Lucifer and thus to please him (Lucifer) rather than in any kind of effort to be obedient to the Lord's commands filled with joy or resentful. Angel here is keeping the commandments at the Lord's behest.

And I think you may be reading a bit much into her statement that she doesn't like to give tithing, that doesn't mean she does it resentfully. To use a domestic example I don't like taking out the trash that doesn't mean I do it grudging or resentfully.

To the OP:

There are three levels of obedience.

3. Fear of punishment, the "I'd do this because I don't want to go to Hell/Terrestial Kingdom/Telestial Kingdom/get excommunicated/disciplined..." Think the child who does his chores because he doesn't want to be grounded.

2. Desire for reward, the "I do this because I'll have blessing poured down upon my head." Think the child who does his chores because his allowance is tied to it and he wants that spending money.

1. Love of God, the "I do this because God wants me to." Think the child who does his chores because he knows his parents desire it of him and he desires to make them happy by following those desires.

These three levels are mentioned in the Gospel Princples chapter on obedience: Gospel Principles Chapter 35: Obedience

Higher up the chain is better. So 1>2>3. That said, these levels are separate from having an individual testimony beyond knowing that it is what is being asked of us (obviously one has to have some level of testimony* that it's a commandment else there is no reason to fear punishment, expect reward, or believe the Lord desires it of you). I think it's easier to work up the chain the more comprehensive your testimony but it isn't required. Simply having a testimony that, "It's what God wants of me" is enough to operate based on #1.

* This can be tangential testimony. For instance, if I have a testimony that President X is a prophet of God and that his counsel and teachings are in line with the will of the Lord and he tells me to do or not do Y then that's a workable minimal testimony.

Edit: One reason I think #2 is better than #3 even though they are both selfish reasons is how they tend to influence our perception of God. His desire is not to punish us but to bless us. #1 leads itself to the most accurate conception of a being with wisdom and knowledge to be trusted and loved.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Dravin

[applepansy]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days. I just have to say I don't see the point in doing something "because I have to." If I don't believe in my Heavenly Father and my Savior then what's the point. Either I do whatever is asked in faith or its a waste of time.

[Dravin]

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days. I just have to say I don't see the point in doing something "because I have to." If I don't believe in my Heavenly Father and my Savior then what's the point. Either I do whatever is asked in faith or its a waste of time.

If you don't believe in your Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ then, from your point of view, you don't 'have to' pay tithing as there is no commandment (or real reason) to do so. If one pays tithing because they have to (because God commands it) then faith is operative. The faith would be why she feels she has to pay tithing and why she doesn't feel she has to offer sacrifices unto Zeus.

I suppose there are cultural LDS who are worried about not keeping up appearances and thus 'have to' in that sense and thus faith isn't operative, but I don't think that's the case here (or at least I hope such isn't the case).

Edited August 2, 2011 by Dravin

[Truegrits]

Either I do whatever is asked in faith or its a waste of time.

I do not believe following our leaders counsel, even though we may not fully understand (or neceassarily agree with it) is a waste of time.

Our faith can grow from the doing of it, even if we did not begin that way.

[pooter1]

I have such a strong testimony in other areas that I feel the areas that Im not so sure about have to be true as well and then I go by faith that this is so, even if I don't have a testimony of it yet.

[applepansy]

I do not believe following our leaders counsel, even though we may not fully understand (or neceassarily agree with it) is a waste of time.

Our faith can grow from the doing of it, even if we did not begin that way.

I understand what you're saying. So do you believe that following a commandment because you "have to," and not because of faith, will still give you the blessings associated with that commandment?

[FunkyTown]

I understand what you're saying. So do you believe that following a commandment because you "have to," and not because of faith, will still give you the blessings associated with that commandment?

EDIT: I have removed the contents of this post as not being faith promoting. It was ultimately irrelevant, and I don't want to put stumbling blocks in front of people's faith.

Edited August 3, 2011 by FunkyTown