Israel and Britain Erupt in Protests

[HoosierGuy]

Things are really heating up in the western world because of the bad and shaky economy. People in Israel held massive protests in that country complaining about the high cost of living and housing and the gap between the poor/middle class and wealthy.

Meanwile riots are spreading in Britain over a shooting but there are other things contributing to the riots - bad economy, high cost of living, etc...

Israeli pocketbook woes awaken a dormant protest spirit(VIDEO) - CSMonitor.com

Israel is awash in the largest public protest movement in recent memory after more than 250,000 took to the streets over the weekend to demand reforms to ease the economic burden on the middle class.

The mass demonstrations, an odd jumble of everyone from leftists to ultra-Orthodox Jews, mark a new activist spirit among young Israelis who have grown increasingly indifferent toward their government.

And the British riots:

London Riots Rage On For Third Day

Violence and looting spread across some of London's most impoverished neighborhoods on Monday, with youths setting fire to shops and vehicles, during a third day of rioting in the city that will host next summer's Olympic Games.

Skirmishes broke out between police and groups of youths across Britain's capital, and also spread to the nation's central city of Birmingham – where police said dozens of people were involved in damaging shops across the city center.

[NeuroTypical]

Ha'aretz is saying the number is over 300,000.

[lizrenowden]

Things are really heating up in the western world because of the bad and shaky economy. People in Israel held massive protests in that country complaining about the high cost of living and housing and the gap between the poor/middle class and wealthy.

Meanwile riots are spreading in Britain over a shooting but there are other things contributing to the riots - bad economy, high cost of living, etc...

Israeli pocketbook woes awaken a dormant protest spirit(VIDEO) - CSMonitor.com

Israel is awash in the largest public protest movement in recent memory after more than 250,000 took to the streets over the weekend to demand reforms to ease the economic burden on the middle class.

The mass demonstrations, an odd jumble of everyone from leftists to ultra-Orthodox Jews, mark a new activist spirit among young Israelis who have grown increasingly indifferent toward their government.

And the British riots:

London Riots Rage On For Third Day

Violence and looting spread across some of London's most impoverished neighborhoods on Monday, with youths setting fire to shops and vehicles, during a third day of rioting in the city that will host next summer's Olympic Games.

Skirmishes broke out between police and groups of youths across Britain's capital, and also spread to the nation's central city of Birmingham – where police said dozens of people were involved in damaging shops across the city center.

Quick update on the rioting in the UK last night the rioting had spread to Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham and Bristol.

Latest here BBC News - Further riots in London as violence spreads across England

[FunkyTown]

According to all the news here, the riots are because a 29 year old was shot by police. Quote source saying this is because of the austerity measures/economy?

I'm not saying you're wrong. That would make sense. I just haven't seen anyone say that's what's causing the riots here.

[Jamie123]

According to all the news here, the riots are because a 29 year old was shot by police. Quote source saying this is because of the austerity measures/economy?

I'm not saying you're wrong. That would make sense. I just haven't seen anyone say that's what's causing the riots here.

You obviously didn't watch Newsnight last night or Daybreak this morning, or read any of the broadsheets either yesterday or today. Plenty of people in the press and on TV have been saying that the present governmental policies and the downturn in the economy are to blame.

The shooting was undoubtedly the spark that lit the powder keg, but I think the underlying causes must run far deeper than that one incident. There have been many controversial police shootings over the past few years that didn't lead to city-wide rioting.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Jamie123

[FunkyTown]

You obviously didn't watch Newsnight last night or Daybreak this morning, or read any of the broadsheets either yesterday or today. Plenty of people in the press and on TV have been saying that the present governmental policies and the downturn in the economy are to blame.

The shooting was undoubtedly the spark that lit the powder keg, but I think the underlying causes must run far deeper than that one incident. There have been many controversial police shootings over the past few years that didn't lead to city-wide rioting.

I freely admit I didn't watch Newsnight or Daybreak.

I did read the newspapers, though, and none said the austerity measures are to blame. Can you quote source? Note that I'm not disbelieving you. I just like to know why they're saying the austerity measures are to blame. I've heard everything from the random stop and search policy to the fact that this guy was another black guy shot by London Police. If it was the austerity measures, I'd love to read who is saying and why they feel that was the cause. Do we have interviews with rioters? A manifesto from some of their leaders? BBM messages that imply that?

[pam]

The news here in the states is also saying it's due to the 29 year old that got shot by police. That's what I thought it was all about.

[FunkyTown]

The news here in the states is also saying it's due to the 29 year old that got shot by police. That's what I thought it was all about.

Yeah. I'm looking for source on that.

Canadians rioted over a hockey game, so I am pretty sure there doesn't need to be any deeper, underlying causes.

This is why I'm interested in seeing Jamie's sources.

[Jamie123]

The news here in the states is also saying it's due to the 29 year old that got shot by police. That's what I thought it was all about.

It's rare that anything of this magnitude is "all about" any specific incident. I find it hard to believe that any youth said to himself: "A 21 year old got shot by the police - therefore I must break into high street stores and steal TV's". The shooting of Mark Duggan was certainly the flashpoint, but to say that was what it was "all about" may be as absurd as saying the entire First World War was "all about" the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

Canadians rioted over a hockey game, so I am pretty sure there doesn't need to be any deeper, underlying causes.

I disagree. Every time I lose a game of chequers I don't run around the house smashing furnature and throwing vases through windows. And if i did, I could hardly explain my actions by saying that my daughter had more kings than me. If a group of Canadians rioted after a hockey game, I'd suggest there was some underlying attitude or tensions amongst them that was the real cause.

This is why I'm interested in seeing Jamie's sources.

These aren't official sources stating verifiable fact. These are people who were interviewed voicing their opinions on what underlying tensions might have fuelled this burst of violence, initially sparked by anger over Duggan's shooting. Some like Theresa May are stressing "sheer criminality" (

) - which obviously has nothing to do with Mark Duggan - while others are talking about a "general hopelessness" amongst the younger generation as a result of the current social and economic climate. (Sorry I haven't found an online source for this last one - but I've heard it voiced several times on TV.) Edited August 9, 2011 by Jamie123

[pam]

It's rare that anything of this magnitude is "all about" any specific incident. I find it hard to believe that any youth said to himself: "A 21 year old got shot by the police - therefore I must break into high street stores and steal TV's". The shooting of Mark Duggan was certainly the flashpoint, but to say that was what it was "all about" may be as absurd as saying the entire First World War was "all about" the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

Perhaps rare but certainly not unheard of. Some of the biggest riots that have happened in the US have been from the beating of an individual or a person being shot.

Examples: The day Martin Luther King was shot, the Watts riots of 1965 and the 1992 riots in Los Angeles after the Rodney King incident.

While some of the underlying factors may have been racial tension, the individual acts that took place ignited the riots.

Therefore, I don't find it out of the question that the one incident could have ignited the riots happening in Britain right now.

[NeuroTypical]

If anyone would like a little background to what's going on, Stratfor is a great source. They're as close to apolitical as I've found - they get paid when they turn out to be correct, not when they advocate for any particular group of people. When they use the term "crisis", it is not to score political points or forward an agenda or make a group look bad, it is because they've consulted a dictionary.

Stratfor: Global Economic Downturn: A Crisis of Political Economy August 9, 2011

[Jamie123]

Perhaps rare but certainly not unheard of. Some of the biggest riots that have happened in the US have been from the beating of an individual or a person being shot.

Examples: The day Martin Luther King was shot, the Watts riots of 1965 and the 1992 riots in Los Angeles after the Rodney King incident.

While some of the underlying factors may have been racial tension, the individual acts that took place ignited the riots.

Therefore, I don't find it out of the question that the one incident could have ignited the riots happening in Britain right now.

No one doubts that the shooting ignited the riots, just as the Rodney King affair ignited the Los Angeles riots in 1992 (and the other examples you mentioned). But I don't think this necessarily makes it the sole cause of the rioting.

To use an analogy, a fire can be ignited by a spark. But a fire actually requires two things: A combustible material and a source of oxygen. If either of these is missing then combustion cannot take place. So in effect the spark - the source of combustion - actually shares its status as "the cause" with two other elements.

To take another example, what "caused" World War II? Was it Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939? That was the flashpoint certainly, but it couldn't have happened without the rise of National Socialism in the 1920's and 30's, which was in turn fuelled by the economic crisis following the Armistice in 1918. Flashpoints like the Duggan shooting are usually easy to identify, but its the underlying causes of the events that keep Historians arguing for decades.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Jamie123

[FunkyTown]

No one doubts that the shooting ignited the riots, just as the Rodney King affair ignited the Los Angeles riots in 1992 (and the other examples you mentioned). But I don't think this necessarily makes it the sole cause of the rioting.

To use an analogy, a fire can be ignited by a spark. But a fire actually requires two things: A combustible material and a source of oxygen. If either of these is missing then combustion cannot take place. So in effect the spark - the source of combustion - actually shares its status as "the cause" with two other elements.

Bah hahah! I looked it up and it turns out you're right, Jamie.

BBC interviewed one of the rioters and I'll give you a word for word transcript:

"What is the purpose of these riots?" "Well, we're rioting against the government, or the conservatives, or whatever, innit. I don't really know. They don't respect us, so we don't respect them, innit."

My opinion based upon this sterling example of violent resistance? Well... Let's just say that if it's the austerity measures they're protesting about, I doubt they know how to spell austerity measures.

[HoosierGuy]

I heard an "old saying" last night that I never heard before - The British don't complain much unless they are hungry. So perhaps these riots do run beyond the shooting.

What I find interesting are the protests in Israel along with with the riots in Britain and the downgrade in the U.S. The reports from Israel say all kinds of people were protesting together - the left wing and right wing, young and old. The BBC video I watched interviewed people in Israel and the whole thing sounded like it could have taken place in the U.S.

[Mahone]

I heard an "old saying" last night that I never heard before - The British don't complain much unless they are hungry. So perhaps these riots do run beyond the shooting.

I don't think anyone in the UK believes the riots/looting are about the shooting anymore. That's what it started off as, with just a small band of people. Now, it's a free for all. A lot of youth saw this as an opportunity to run wild, break into shops, houses, steal expensive goods, loot and do things they'd never normally be able to do.

That's literally all it is now. There is no cause other than greed.

As for the British not complaining much, I'd say we are normally quite a reserved nation as a whole, but quite frankly this is a rare time where I'm ashamed to say that I'm British. I've never known anything like this to happen before - just two miles from where I live.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Mahone

[HoosierGuy]

Dr. Juan Cole's opinion on the subject.

London Riots: Its the Economy, Stupid (Not a Clash of Civilizations) | Informed Comment

The unfortunate riots in Tottenham in London tell us a great deal about the problems of immigrant communities, and what they say to us most eloquently is that people want to be treated with justice. They want to be treated in accordance with a rule of law, and not singled out for extra policing on the basis of racial profiling. The demonstrations were set off by the police shooting of an African-Carribean man, and came in part in protest against the constant pat-downs to which African-Caribbeans are subjected by police.

It is not completely clear what is driving the looting that has come in the wake of the rioting. It could just be opportunism (a wave of looting once swept New York City just because the lights went out because of a problem in the electrical grid). Some of the arson seems mindless, but then the US saw similar things in the late 1960s. When people hate their lives, they sometimes lash out, even at the few nice buildings in their neighborhood. The looting may also be organized crime (and some of the arson and sabotage may be intended to cover for looting and burglary by these gangs). The looting is not the main issue, in any case; it is rather the demonstrations and riots that have created the conditions of which looters have taken advantage.

[slamjet]

So how did this go from a police shooting to an economic issue?

This all reminds me of the L.A. riot that I lived thorough. It went from bad to worse to horrible by a bunch of folks who went out and created mayhem just because. All the while screaming "Rodney King!" Problem is, the rioters were attacking their own as well as some of them waving the Mexican flag. It didn't end until the National Guard came in and parked themselves around town. Unless the police over there are allowed to get rude (you know, not politically correct) and really crack down, it's gonna keep on going.

[Mahone]

Unless the police over there are allowed to get rude (you know, not politically correct) and really crack down, it's gonna keep on going.

Eventually, the army will be called in. The police, admittedly, are a little worried about having to be politically correct, due to incidents in the past where they weren't so PC and the results of those incidents. Currently they are using more scare tactics than force - putting CCTV images of those involved in the rioting out in the public domain for identification, making hundreds of arrests and getting them into court the next day, lots of forceful speeches on TV etc.

If it gets to the point where the army have to be called in, they won't be so reserved when it comes to force.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Mahone

[john doe]

One Brit blogger thinks they are race riots. I didn't think they had those over there. These riots were about race. Why ignore the fact? – Telegraph Blogs

[FunkyTown]

One Brit blogger thinks they are race riots. I didn't think they had those over there. These riots were about race. Why ignore the fact? – Telegraph Blogs

I'm uncertain on this particular link. I'm looking for a follow-up on this now that it was proven that the bullet lodged in the police radio was police issue and not fired from the starter pistol they found with the guy.

Fears London riots will spread based on forensics of Duggan death - GlobalPost

It's starting to look like they saw the gun, fired - Which is completely acceptable for police - And then panicked when they found out it was a starter pistol and planted evidence that Mark Duggan did it(EDIT: Fired a bullet that lodged in a police radio). If they'd just said 'He had a gun. We fired', then there would be a lot of concern. Planting evidence makes the whole thing suspect.

Edited August 10, 2011 by FunkyTown

[Jamie123]

It's starting to look like they saw the gun, fired - Which is completely acceptable for police - And then panicked when they found out it was a starter pistol and planted evidence that Mark Duggan did it(EDIT: Fired a bullet that lodged in a police radio). If they'd just said 'He had a gun. We fired', then there would be a lot of concern. Planting evidence makes the whole thing suspect.

I read somewhere it was a starter pistol, but one modified to fire actual bullets. However, there are so many stories flying around at the moment it's hard to know what to believe. (One eyewitness even reported that the police shot Duggan after they had him pinned to the ground.)

[FunkyTown]

I read somewhere it was a starter pistol, but one modified to fire actual bullets. However, there are so many stories flying around at the moment it's hard to know what to believe. (One eyewitness even reported that the police shot Duggan after they had him pinned to the ground.)

No problem. This is London we're talking about. Pull out camera footage from that time and show it to the world. Then, you can know.

[john doe]

I'm uncertain on this particular link.

I just tried it from another computer. The link works fine. Maybe it's your browser?

[FunkyTown]

I just tried it from another computer. The link works fine. Maybe it's your browser?

No, no. I'm uncertain that link is accurate. It talks about how it's racial riots, while other blogs are saying they're mostly youth from a wide variety of backgrounds:

Who are the rioters? Young men from poor areas ... but that's not the full story | UK news | The Guardian

I'm going to hold my piece on whether it was racially motivated until someone who is actually rioting comes up with a vaguely intelligent answer as to why the majority are rioting. So far, I've only seen the stupidest of people. The smarter ones seem only to be motivated by greed, so don't want to get a message out.

[Jamie123]

It's not funny I know, but I couldn't help smiling about the girl with the wedding dress. What's she going to say when she shows her wedding pictures to kids in years to come? "Mommy stole that lovely dress from a London boutique during a riot, while Daddy was throwing petrol bombs at the police!"

Mind you, given the way some paernts carry on these days, that wouldn't surprise me!

Edited August 10, 2011 by Jamie123