Does God Love Everyone?

[Blackmarch]

What do I think that you are driving at? That the victims of Katrina, etc., were there because they chose to be there, hence it is their fault that they became a victim.

At least that is how it reads.

Not quite. what i'm trying to drive at is that God allows mans actions consequences to play out.

in the case of the katrina victims they were there because of consequences of actions of human beings.

To be able to indict God of one or tthe other one must remove human influence from the equation.

OR

One must be able to show and prove at what point does god interrupt the consequences for no reason?

Nor can God simply play favorites on a whim, without being just.

[Snow]

Hello Snow.

I have read a few of your posts, and I'm going to make some observations that I'd like to get your input in to. You've made a few posts that, on the surface, seem to mock some pretty basic doctrine. My suspicion is that you're using these posts as a means of getting people to develop their own testimony of things by challenging them. You've, in mocking tones, poked fun at a few things I feel are relatively basic ideas:

1) That Satan can and does tempt man.

2) That prayer can and does influence the world.

Your threads aside for a second, is it your honest assertion that prayer does not influence the world? And is it your honest assertion that Satan cannot tempt us? Or is this an attempt at understanding difficult doctrine?

I ask because I suspect you know that certain things such as:

The nature of the veil between life and death and the capability of those beyond.

The ways and means by which a disembodied individual interacts with this world.

The physical expression of the means by which prayer and faith changes the world.

I suspect you recognize that no clinical discussion of those things exists within the standard works, or even in things like the King Follett discourse.

Any discussion of the deepest understanding of those will necessarily fall in to the realm of conjecture. I could certainly quote a list of scriptures that say 'Prayer influences the world' and 'Satan tempts us', but I suspect you aren't looking for a list of scriptures that disagree with you. By understanding your intention in this discussion, I think we can have a more meaningful discourse.

Hi FunkyTown,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think that what I am attempting to do through my posting style, and the debates that ensue, is to slowly shape and fine tune my own world view, reconciling, the best I can, faith, dogma, and scripture with science, reason and experience. In doing so, I find the need to play the 'devil's advocate' to generate 1. interest on my part and 2. debate from others... when those debates make sense, I will sometimes revise my worldview.

Specifically to your questions...

1, Can prayers influence the world: as a believing Mormon, I feel compelled to accept that, yes, they likely do. On the other hand, I also believe God is benevolent, and God is just. So the quandary is how to reconcile a good, just God with all the suffering and evil in the world. It is illogical to believe that God helps middle class Mormons in Utah find their missing car key, or get home safely on an empty tank of gas, but lets innocent children be raped and tortured or families in Africa starve to death.

2. That Satan can and does tempt man: yes, as a believing Mormon I have to accept that, at least in theory, that is possible or actual. However, it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises. Besides which, evil beings plying their evil trade is not necessary to explain what goes on in the world.

So, how to I best reconcile reason and reality, dogma and experience?

Appealing to mystery is a waste of time.

So, I think I am a minimalist. God exists but is relatively distant. Satan exists, somehow, but has no immediate relevancy in my life. I think in terms of what (belief) is reasonable, useful and necessary.

That doesn't reconcile everything or satisfy all situations but, in my mind, it seems to be the most reasonable, the most necessary and the most useful belief I can, at present, think of.

[HiJolly]

Hi FunkyTown,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I think that what I am attempting to do through my posting style, and the debates that ensue, is to slowly shape and fine tune my own world view, reconciling, the best I can, faith, dogma, and scripture with science, reason and experience. In doing so, I find the need to play the 'devil's advocate' to generate 1. interest on my part and 2. debate from others... when those debates make sense, I will sometimes revise my worldview.

Specifically to your questions...

1, Can prayers influence the world: as a believing Mormon, I feel compelled to accept that, yes, they likely do. On the other hand, I also believe God is benevolent, and God is just. So the quandary is how to reconcile a good, just God with all the suffering and evil in the world. It is illogical to believe that God helps middle class Mormons in Utah find their missing car key, or get home safely on an empty tank of gas, but lets innocent children be raped and tortured or families in Africa starve to death.

2. That Satan can and does tempt man: yes, as a believing Mormon I have to accept that, at least in theory, that is possible or actual. However, it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises. Besides which, evil beings plying their evil trade is not necessary to explain what goes on in the world.

So, how to I best reconcile reason and reality, dogma and experience?

Appealing to mystery is a waste of time.

So, I think I am a minimalist. God exists but is relatively distant. Satan exists, somehow, but has no immediate relevancy in my life. I think in terms of what (belief) is reasonable, useful and necessary.

That doesn't reconcile everything or satisfy all situations but, in my mind, it seems to be the most reasonable, the most necessary and the most useful belief I can, at present, think of.

Thanks Snow. That does indeed match your comments and activity here.

I'm sorry Snow, but the best answers of all lie wrapped in mystery. Or perhaps paradox would suit you better. Probably not. :-)

HiJolly

[Snow]

Thanks Snow. That does indeed match your comments and activity here.

I'm sorry Snow, but the best answers of all lie wrapped in mystery. Or perhaps paradox would suit you better. Probably not. :-)

HiJolly

Of course if it's a mystery, it's not an answer. :)

[HiJolly]

Of course if it's a mystery, it's not an answer. :)

That's not true, Snow. The mysteries are taught to those who are ready for them by the Holy Ghost or by special messengers who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, as taught in both the temple and in the Book of Mormon.

The reconciliation between materialist and magic world-views is best done via embracing paradox and mystery. Myth helps a lot, not because it is more 'true' than science or materialism, but because we as humans work in mythic themes much more 'truthfully' than we do in 'fact'.

In the end, the human mind is overwhelmingly irrational, no matter how much we don't like that fact. We can help ourselves by using logic and reason, but we always fail to keep these 'pure' enough to avoid irrationality.

If that's not to your liking, it's not my fault nor is it God's fault.

So why not embrace mystery, myth, and the subconscious? The scriptures tell us how to do so without becoming deluded, if you can see it.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

It is illogical to believe that God helps middle class Mormons in Utah find their missing car key, or get home safely on an empty tank of gas, but lets innocent children be raped and tortured or families in Africa starve to death.

It is not illogical at all, Snow. You simply have not begun with the correct (truthful) postulates. All logic fails when the beginning postulates are not true.

Spanky is a cat.

All cats have fur.

Therefore,

Spanky has fur.

Garbage in, garbage out.

HiJolly

[Spartan117]

Logical fallacies are fun.

[Vort]

It is illogical to believe that God helps middle class Mormons in Utah find their missing car key, or get home safely on an empty tank of gas, but lets innocent children be raped and tortured or families in Africa starve to death. [...] it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises.

In what way are these things illogical? Can you demonstrate their illogic?

[skippy740]

From Bruce Almighty:

Bruce: How do you make so many people love you without affecting Free Will?

God: [snorts] Heh, welcome to my world, son. If you come up with an answer to that one, let me know.

Children starving and being raped &/or tortured is against the child's free will... but not the person committing such a crime, who is overpowering the child's free will.

The only thing WE have to give God IS our free will. That's why God will help us find our keys - because we are looking for inspiration from Him!

[Snow]

In what way are these things illogical? Can you demonstrate their illogic?

Can I demonstrate that it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises?

I'm only entertain serious questions today. Sorry.

[Snow]

That's not true, Snow. The mysteries are taught to those who are ready for them by the Holy Ghost or by special messengers who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, as taught in both the temple and in the Book of Mormon.

The reconciliation between materialist and magic world-views is best done via embracing paradox and mystery. Myth helps a lot, not because it is more 'true' than science or materialism, but because we as humans work in mythic themes much more 'truthfully' than we do in 'fact'.

In the end, the human mind is overwhelmingly irrational, no matter how much we don't like that fact. We can help ourselves by using logic and reason, but we always fail to keep these 'pure' enough to avoid irrationality.

If that's not to your liking, it's not my fault nor is it God's fault.

So why not embrace mystery, myth, and the subconscious? The scriptures tell us how to do so without becoming deluded, if you can see it.

HiJolly

It's one thing to say that mysteries are knowable. It another thing to actually have the knowledge and then prove it.

Short of proof, it's dogma and thus uninteresting. Arguing dogma isn't very interesting as anyone can claim anything they want and there's no standard to measure truth and accuracy against. For example, you can no more demostrate the truthfulness of Mormonism as you can Zoroasterism.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Snow

[Blackmarch]

Id like to point out something that may be somewhat relevant to the discussion at this point - freedom and free will are not the same things and often get mixed up.

[HiJolly]

It's one thing to say that mysteries are knowable. It another thing to actually have the knowledge and then prove it.

Knowledge of the mysteries is indeed possible. *Sharing* the mysteries is only possible to the Holy Ghost, and none else.

Short of proof, it's dogma and thus uninteresting.

What an unbelievably hopeless statement. As long as you resist faith, you lose. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel for a very good reason. If you can't trust God because of His allowing rape, starvation and more, I can understand that. But what a loss to the people within your circle of influence!

HiJolly

[Snow]

What an unbelievably hopeless statement. As long as you resist faith, you lose. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel for a very good reason. If you can't trust God because of His allowing rape, starvation and more, I can understand that. But what a loss to the people within your circle of influence!

HiJolly

Did anybody say anything about not trusting God?

[rameumptom]

I think what the issue is, Snow is a very intelligent person. However, rather than use it to enhance a discussion or help others understand things, he uses it to display his intellect. He sets up a question that can only be answered with dogma and scripture, yet he does not allow any evidence unless one can physically view it through the lens of a telescope. He traps many unsuspecting victims in his circular trap.

I fear that it frustrates many, and worse, drives many from this forum or from faith in the gospel. They are left confused to their own level of intelligence, or to their own level of faith. Either way, it does a major disservice. And while Snow thinks it helps him to think things through, I've yet to see him come out and explain how it has helped him. After all, he's asked this question before and demanded the same evidence before. I don't see how it helped him resolve anything, except prove that his intellect can beat up on others' intellects.

Religion is an issue of faith, not proof. And until any of us comes to understand that, we will have questions just like Snow. When faith intervenes, and the Holy Spirit witnesses to it, then we can actually move forward in understanding. And if we do not understand all, we can hope that God will help us to someday understand. There is a reason the Book of Mormon warns about the learned who do not humble themselves before God. They end up as frustrated souls, who then feel it is their purpose to stir up everyone else around them.

[Snow]

I think what the issue is, Snow is a very intelligent person. However, rather than use it to enhance a discussion or help others understand things, he uses it to display his intellect. He sets up a question that can only be answered with dogma and scripture, yet he does not allow any evidence unless one can physically view it through the lens of a telescope. He traps many unsuspecting victims in his circular trap.

A little less of you fixating on me might be healthy Ram.

[Seminarysnoozer]

2. That Satan can and does tempt man: yes, as a believing Mormon I have to accept that, at least in theory, that is possible or actual. However, it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises. Besides which, evil beings plying their evil trade is not necessary to explain what goes on in the world.

So, how to I best reconcile reason and reality, dogma and experience?

Appealing to mystery is a waste of time.

So, I think I am a minimalist. God exists but is relatively distant. Satan exists, somehow, but has no immediate relevancy in my life. I think in terms of what (belief) is reasonable, useful and necessary.

That doesn't reconcile everything or satisfy all situations but, in my mind, it seems to be the most reasonable, the most necessary and the most useful belief I can, at present, think of.

I also lean in this direction, maybe not as strongly. I think the range of good and evil choices in this world are set up by the influences of the body and the spirit. As a dual being, carnal influences (which Satan has power over) compete with spiritual make up (which Satan does not have direct power over). I agree that Satan doesn't have to have an immediate affect or relevancy in anybody's life because it is done through the carnal nature of our immortal body set up by the Fall of Adam.

God can be distant too, as this life is a test and we have learned all we can from God in the pre-mortal life save the value of this test experience gained from this life. So, we are supposed to be using the spiritual influences we have already obtained through our previous learning, we don't have to be fed new answers, just listen to the ones we already have. It is similar to taking a test in the classroom, the chalk board is erased, the text books are closed, but we still get some basic instruction for taking the test and can have some questions answered during the test, if needed.

[HiJolly]

Did anybody say anything about not trusting God?

"I have said nothing about Father..." Oh, wait... That wasn't Snow...

HJ

[FunkyTown]

Hi Snow!

I want to apologize for not getting back to you on this; I didn't want to say something half-baked when I've struggled with the same things. However, I wanted to address some points:

1, Can prayers influence the world: as a believing Mormon, I feel compelled to accept that, yes, they likely do. On the other hand, I also believe God is benevolent, and God is just. So the quandary is how to reconcile a good, just God with all the suffering and evil in the world. It is illogical to believe that God helps middle class Mormons in Utah find their missing car key, or get home safely on an empty tank of gas, but lets innocent children be raped and tortured or families in Africa starve to death.

This, on the surface, seems to be a silly thing. Why is God like a Genie for rich people in Utah, helping find lost keys and letting them find their way when they're driving down a lonely highway at night, but lets young children starve in Somalia? There are four potential reasons this could be:

1) God doesn't exist.

2) God doesn't care.

3) God is openly malevolent to certain people.

4) Suffering is an intrinsic part of human development for the eternities.

I'm not going to address numbers 1-3. Frankly, they're a part of the Zeitgeist now: Films, books and general thought have addressed these to death.

The fourth is intriguing. I'd like to call your attention to this article:

Don?t let food rot, distribute it free to the poorest: SC - Hindustan Times

It isn't just the East that lets food rot, either: In Canada and the US, grain is allowed to rot in order to guarantee a certain price for the farmers by not flooding the market. Every year, it happens. I would assume other first world countries do the same thing, but I don't have the numbers on them. If mankind cared enough to handle distribution problems, there would be enough food to feed the starving. The same can be said of nearly every other issue on the planet: Bad flu seasons can often be traced to the filthy conditions of animals on battery farms in China, Cancer is caused by a plethora of man-made conditions, such that it would be impossible to determine when something was due to someone's personal choice or when it was purely environmental.

That said, earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes are probably not man-made. Could be human influenced, but I feel it's highly unlikely and I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that. Since places like the Caribbean tend to get hit harder by Hurricanes, the Bible Belt tends to get hit harder by Tornadoes and geologically unstable places like California tend to get hit harder by earthquakes, we can do one of several things:

1) We can blame it on Satan. See Job for possibilities on this.

2) We can blame it on cosmic chance.

3) We can blame God.

4) We can claim it's part of the ineffable plan.

The first is silly. Blaming an evil being when God is omnipotent is absurd. If Satan does do these things, then it's because he is allowed to do these things.

The second is a possibility, but not really relevant to a belief in an omnipotent, caring and ominscient Deity.

3) An omnipotent, omniscient deity COULD be like a child setting fire to ants, but I don't believe it. You could claim an eternal being is using us like a cosmic television screen to alleviate the crushing weight of eternity. In this case, you'd be interpreting the randomness and acts of chance like a fireworks show that accidentally engulfs a sparrow, or a child playing with a sprinkler accidentally drowning an anthill in his back yard. Fair play. In that case, you've explained why some people are happy, some people are sad, some people face insurmountable difficulties and others have it easy. Rather elegantly, you've explained the universe as a giant television set running dramas, nature shows, comedies and thrillers all at once with the only viewer that counts watching.

4) These acts could be preparing us for what God wants from us. In LDS thought, adversity prepares us for the eternities. I don't know what that means - If the eternities will be filled with pitfalls such as this. I do know that God 'Wipes away all tears' in the eternities. What does this mean? Obviously, there will be tears in the eternities. How does that fit with our concept of Heaven?

The only thing I can do is say "This is my work and my glory: To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." What that will mean in the eternities, I have no idea. I trust God, however, and believe in Him. I hope for some understanding of this, of what Prayer can do. The truth is: I don't know. I pray because I'm told to pray and because I do love God.

2. That Satan can and does tempt man: yes, as a believing Mormon I have to accept that, at least in theory, that is possible or actual. However, it makes no logical sense that magical, invisible beings can enter my brain and manipulate it to think certain things... or ghosts, not having lungs and a voice box, can make audible vocal noises. Besides which, evil beings plying their evil trade is not necessary to explain what goes on in the world.

So, how to I best reconcile reason and reality, dogma and experience?

Appealing to mystery is a waste of time.

So, I think I am a minimalist. God exists but is relatively distant. Satan exists, somehow, but has no immediate relevancy in my life. I think in terms of what (belief) is reasonable, useful and necessary.

That doesn't reconcile everything or satisfy all situations but, in my mind, it seems to be the most reasonable, the most necessary and the most useful belief I can, at present, think of.

This one, I feel is a little simpler.

The question is:

What is the origin of thought?

If it's the brain, and things like schizophrenia, brain damage and the like suggests it might be, then Satan would have to physically alter the brain - Either chemically, or biologically - To bring thoughts in.

However, it is a truism that we all can point to times when we feel we weren't acting like 'Ourselves'. We have exploded in anger and thought, "Who was that guy?". We have been wicked and blamed it on loneliness, fear or the like. In the end, we have felt like we weren't in control.

I'm not going to point to the extreme examples:

This morning, I read the Metro and an 18 year old stabbed his girlfriend(A mother of 2) to death because she was disappointed he didn't make garlic bread for supper. He turned himself in, saying "I'm not a bad person, but sometimes **** happens."

A few years back, a man with no history of violence turned to the person on the Greyhound Bus next to him, murdered him and ate bits of him while people scrambled to get off the bus.

Those could be explained as someone 'Snapping' - Of the human brain switching circuits and suddenly somebody becoming a psychopath.

The more true examples, we've all had: We've all said and done things that we feel we never should have. Maybe we yelled at a loved one. Maybe we made ourselves look like jerks in front of that girl/guy we liked.

The other option is that the origin of thought is the soul.

This isn't as crazy as it sounds, with things like strokes and such obviously changing what we say or do.

What if the brain were merely a complex engine that allowed the interpretation of this world to the soul, and interpreted the soul's instructions to this world. This would allow physical limitations to run interference with the soul's instructions, could mark the Soul by changing its experiences and could act as a buffer. In this case, all Satan would have to do is whisper - Kind of like someone whispering in your sleep.

And, believe it or not, there's some evidence this could be the case:

World?s Most Precise Clocks Could Reveal Universe Is a Hologram | Wired Science | Wired.com

In New Scientist last month, I was reading about how the Universe might merely be a projection - Like a hologram - From someplace else, billions of miles away. I'm not saying this is the definite truth - They're looking at testing this now. If this experiment pans out, it would suggest that our physical reality right now is an expression of something deeper very far away.

Whatever we are a projection of could be interpreted as our soul.

Again, I'm not saying it is: But with there being some evidence that the universe is a projection of something else, it would go a far way to explaining the 'All things were made spiritually before they were made physically' thing. It would also explain how something that doesn't seem to have a physical presence could know what we're doing and influence our actions.

[Matthew0059]

Snow, I believe it all really does make sense, and our job right now is to not kick against the pricks but accept what truths we've been given and continue in the faith by nurturing the priciples of charity within our own souls. All truth will be given in its due time. Agency is the answer! That is the answer that God has given to us- that because of the existence of agency, this earth we are on exists.

What is your point in starting this thread?

[Seminarysnoozer]

This one, I feel is a little simpler.

The question is:

What is the origin of thought?

If it's the brain, and things like schizophrenia, brain damage and the like suggests it might be, then Satan would have to physically alter the brain - Either chemically, or biologically - To bring thoughts in.

However, it is a truism that we all can point to times when we feel we weren't acting like 'Ourselves'. We have exploded in anger and thought, "Who was that guy?". We have been wicked and blamed it on loneliness, fear or the like. In the end, we have felt like we weren't in control.

The other option is that the origin of thought is the soul.

This isn't as crazy as it sounds, with things like strokes and such obviously changing what we say or do.

What if the brain were merely a complex engine that allowed the interpretation of this world to the soul, and interpreted the soul's instructions to this world. This would allow physical limitations to run interference with the soul's instructions, could mark the Soul by changing its experiences and could act as a buffer. In this case, all Satan would have to do is whisper - Kind of like someone whispering in your sleep.

Satan did physically alter the brain by his temptations in the Garden of Eden. He secondarily caused a carnal corruption of the brain and our whole body for that matter.

If the soul, (I am assuming you are meaning our spirit self, cause some call the soul the combination of the body and spirit) is the origin of thought, then we would remember all that we learned in the pre-mortal life. Spontaneous thought and random what-if thoughts can be altered by affecting frontal lobe inputs. This seems to be the problem with schizophrenia and even bipolar disorder, manic episodes. I think the spirit can react to those brain generated thoughts, like I think you are saying but I would say that most thoughts originate from the brain's wiring. I'll give one example, hunger. Do you think your spirit originates the thought, 'I wonder what I am going to have for dinner tonight?" The thought about food starts very young when the veil is thin, so-to-speak. Even with a thin veil the body's generated thoughts overpower the spirit.

I don't think Satan talks to our spirit. He talks to our body which then can overcome spiritual influence in our dual being. But, that "talking" could certainly just be the corrupt state of our bodies, the "natural man" which is an enemy to God, the natural inputs that came about from the Fall, from Satan's influence. This could also be magnified by the degradation of the body, further away from the original creation over time by what happens with genetic mutation etc., thus increasing his carnal influences over time, greater in the later days. God had to clean up that natural pulling away once, in Noah's day and again now our carnal influence pulls away from spiritual influences stronger over time. The process of living in this world is a downward slope, man does not become more like God every day, he moves away. So, in that sense Satan put the ball in motion to change chemistry of the brain over time, I am sure not specifically with that intent.

[ConvinceTheWorld]

blaming these consequences on God is the exact same as "intentionally committing sin and then blaming God because you feel bad inside"

Again, another random but similiar comparison would be - You are walking barefoot in your house and stub your toe! Now would you curse and blame God because you forgot to raise your foot?

Edited September 12, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[Snow]

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts FunkyTown.

[Backroads]

blaming these consequences on God is the exact same as "intentionally committing sin and then blaming God because you feel bad inside"

Again, another random but similiar comparison would be - You are walking barefoot in your house and stub your toe! Now would you curse and blame God because you forgot to raise your foot?

I personally found a lot of truth in this metaphor.

May I expand on it by asking if we curse God because someone else left a heavy object around for us on which to stub our toe?

[SteveVH]

My explanation for the existence of evil in the world will probably not fly with any of you, but it in my faith tradition it is due to original sin which corrupted human nature. We now must deal with concupiscience (the tendency toward sin). As this thread has demostrated, there is no doubt that sin and evil have entered our world. From where did it come? God certainly did not will it. He permits it because he will never interfere in our free will, but does not will it. We certainly have not chosen to be saddled with this situation. Who on this thread would not, if it were possible, push a button that would once and for all rid the world of evil, sin and corruption? So from whence does sin and evil come? It is from our fallen nature and the very reason that we require a Savior.