Violence: Worse than pornography?

[volgadon]

I don't care for Schindler's List, and it isn't the violence in the film which bothers me. The problem I have with the film is in how it glorifies Schindler instead of painting a more complex picture of his personality and actions.

[Blackmarch]

I watched part of Saving Private Ryan on some TV channel last night or the night before. We never saw the show, primarily because of its 'R' rating, but the TV cut had cleaned up some language and, probably, some graphic violence. My wife and older sons were watching it, and I watched on and off for an hour. It was at times riveting and seemed very realistic in its depiction of the savagery of war.

At one point, I told my sons that I would not watch any more. It was far too disturbing to watch men literally blowing each other's heads off. I told them I considered it a pornography of violence. God save me if I ever reach a point where I find such depictions entertaining. Yet I am fully aware than many people enjoy such shows, taking in a steady diet of violence. If I can say anything good about the movie, it was that the depictions of unspeakable violence and utterly ruthless killings was portrayed as vile and shocking; many movies portray such violence as a joyful, fun thing to behold.

I remember coming home from my mission to Italy in the mid-80s. Though I had been exposed to quite a bit of nudity in Italy, I was still quite sensitive to such things and assumed that I would be greatly bothered by overtly sexual imagery and positive portrayals of fornication. And indeed, such things were (and still are) bothersome to me. What surprised me was the realization that portrayals of violence were much more shocking to my soul, even than portrayals of fornication. I honestly believe that if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the porn, even knowing that it would canker my soul. Because the violence would destroy my very humanity.

Of course, that's like saying that cutting off your arms is better than cutting off your head. Don't take this as any kind of endorsement of pornography. On the contrary, the better you understand how much I loathe pornography, the more you will understand the surprising intensity of my statement that it does not seem to offend my spirit as much as the violence I see in some shows.

Anyone else feel this way, or have other thoughts on the matter?

I think at a certain point violence is pornographic- is sating the lust for killing & violence worse than sating the lust for flesh?

If it was actual real war footage, then I probably could stand it.. otherwise I would not want it, and there is no reason to duplicate it after a certain point.

[unixknight]

I think at a certain point violence is pornographic- is sating the lust for killing & violence worse than sating the lust for flesh?

The latter is natural. The former is not. That's how I see the difference.

...not that I disagree when you say that at a certain point it's like violence porn... I think on some level they're trying to reach ever greater heights of graphic content as a way of trying to shock the audience.

[MarginOfError]

Yeah, well, you're not the only one. My wife teases me about being a closet tree-hugger.

How did you fit the tree into your closet?

[Guest]

How did you fit the tree into your closet?

Closet trees are little.

[Dravin]

How did you fit the tree into your closet?

A miniature bonsai?

[Vort]

How did you fit the tree into your closet?

I live in the Seattle area. You can't get away from the trees, even in your closet.

[Guest fadedleaf]

I wouldn't worry too much about the animal thing. A lot of people will talk about how they would never hurt an animal, then go out and eat a bacon double cheeseburger. Farmers, butchers, hunters and the like have been killing animals since mankind first stepped east of Eden. If there were something wrong with you, there was something wrong with all of them and they did all right.

In heaven there will be an abundance of double bacon cheese burgers coming from a water fall! (I'm just kidding). I agree that there is a detachment of people buying food not thinking of how their meat ended up in the frozen food isle.

Growing up on a farm as a child gave me the opportunity to participate in the slaughter of many animals, but the experience wasn't something I dwell upon. My Native American grandmother used to pray to... well, I don't remember the name, but she would literally ask the dead animal spirit for forgiveness. Unfortunately, she grew ill and was moved to a nursing home; I never learned how to properly sanctify animal flesh.

I once stumbled upon a gathering of college age people watching a film in an old dilapidated movie theater. The the showing that night was one of farm animals being slaughtered and how we need to treat domesticated animals more humanly. With the audience in aghast the speaker then calmly drove away in her new, 20 mpg, black SUV with tinted windows, and I wondered how many animals that vehicle was directly and indirectly destroying.

Personally, I think killing animals for food, killing man for pleasure, and/or watching violent movies, are separate lines of thought.

[Vort]

Growing up on a farm as a child gave me the opportunity to participate in the slaughter of many animals, but the experience wasn't something I dwell upon. My Native American grandmother used to pray to... well, I don't remember the name, but she would literally ask the dead animal spirit for forgiveness. Unfortunately, she grew ill and was moved to a nursing home; I never learned how to properly sanctify animal flesh.

To properly sanctify animal flesh, pray to the Father with gratitude for providing the food. That will do the job, far better than petitioning the slaughtered animal's spirit for pardon will ever do.

[Clarity_over_agreement]

Pornography is worse than Violence.

In films we all know after vilolent scene the actors get up and have a dinner together after. We know its an effect.

After a pornographic scene that woman's virtue has still been ransacked.

[Vort]

Pornography is worse than Violence.

In films we all know after vilolent scene the actors get up and have a dinner together after. We know its an effect.

After a pornographic scene that woman's virtue has still been ransacked.

So as long as they use rubber genitalia or digital effects, that mitigates the evil effects of pornography?

Btw, I would guess that any porn actress's virtue has been ransacked long, long before the particular film was produced.

[Guest fadedleaf]

To properly sanctify animal flesh, pray to the Father with gratitude for providing the food. That will do the job, far better than petitioning the slaughtered animal's spirit for pardon will ever do.

Why would I need to do that? I'm just curious.

[Vort]

Why would I need to do that? I'm just curious.

Why would you pray with gratitude to the Father for the food you are to eat? To show gratitude, I suppose, and to acknowledge that God is the source of life, both physical and spiritual.

[Guest fadedleaf]

Why would you pray with gratitude to the Father for the food you are to eat? To show gratitude, I suppose, and to acknowledge that God is the source of life, both physical and spiritual.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just wondering where you are arriving to your conclusion. Or from which source are you driving your doctrine. Is this tenet? Must I pray to the Father? Would my mother Goddess be inferior?

[Vort]

I understand what you're saying, I'm just wondering where you are arriving to your conclusion. Or from which source are you driving your doctrine. Is this tenet? Must I pray to the Father? Would my mother Goddess be inferior?

You can pray to whomsoever or whatsoever you choose -- a tree, a lamp, a cloud, a particularly attractive idea. But to pray to an actual Being who will hear you and bring you to him if you seek him humbly, you must pray to the Father. There is no other being to whom you need (or ought) to pray.

This doctrine is taught uniformly throughout all scripture, indeed throughout all Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam. I realize that Catholics pray to beings other than the Father, but as far as I know, they are alone among Christians (in fact, among monotheists) in doing so.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I hear the Prophets constantly warn against pornography. I try to be on my guard browsing the Internet. Recently I had to set some strict rules for myself with YouTube. There is a lot of borderline pornography on that site that you can accidently view.

[Clarity_over_agreement]

Thats a good point Vort, assuming there is equal weight between rubber parts and fake blood I still hold that Pornography is worse than violence.

You must also consider the sexual nature of man (Im speaking of Males not of mankind). The sexual nature of a man can consume him if not checked in place. Now you might argue that a violent natured man has the same problem. This is true, however, male sexual nature is universal and violent nature is more rare. therefore as a general rule, sexual imagery is more dangerous to a man's soul than violent imagery

[Guest fadedleaf]

I thank you for your kind words; however, I feel that my question was still not answered.

When I asked of my Mother Goddess was inferior to your “Father” you mocked me by saying,

You can pray to whomsoever or whatsoever you choose -- a tree' date=' a lamp, a cloud, a particularly attractive idea [/quote']

Have I ever called your “Father” a tree, a lamp, or a particularly attractive idea? No. And I still won’t condemn your deities.

I also asked,

I'm just wondering where you are arriving to your conclusion. Or from which source are you driving your doctrine. Is this tenet? Must I pray to the Father? Would my mother Goddess be inferior?

Because you replied' date='

Why would you pray with gratitude to the Father for the food you are to eat? To show gratitude' date=' I suppose, and to acknowledge that God is the source of life, both physical and spiritual.[/quote']

I only inquired to see if there was a part of the scriptures you could refer me to.

However, I will state that my “particularly attractive idea” guided my people to this continent over 32,000 years ago. Even by Judo-Christian, Catholic, Islam, or LDS standards, my religion pre-dates yours (assuming from your profile you are still LDS). Early Celtic and Pagan religions all worshiped female Goddesses (some modern variations of these religions still do). The Ancient Syro-Palestine people worshiped goddesses, as did the women in ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, women of the ancient Hebrews, India, China, Japan, African Kingdoms, Rome. It would seem then if there are more people in agreement with a single entity female Goddess, though many name changes, than a single God. And I almost want to read in by implication from your statement that a Goddess can’t be responsible for the creation of the world, or can’t exist anywhere. I have to ask though, from which orifice did God create Adam? – Or are you of the belief God pulled Adam from clay. It’s odd to me (perhaps perception) that even today scientists still find it difficult to create life, and yet women have been doing it all along, just as they have been over, and over, and over. And who gave women the ability to procreate? – Man God did.

The purpose to ask forgiveness from the slain animal is along the same ideology as LDS repentance. Part of the repentance factor, in LDS dogma, is to ask forgiveness from the offended individual. To ask to pardon one’s self for killing the animal is simply to invoke forgiveness from She who created the universe.

[kayne]

i cant say violence is worse then porn. though i will say violence will cross the line into porn but until it blurs that line with torture porn and other bizzarre lethal fetishes im not sure i could say violence is worse than porn. though violence is a bad thing but it is neccessary at times. that said even as a gamer i do agree games are starting to blur that line a bit its not too terrible yet but i do suspect its possible it will really blur the line sometime in the future. fortunently there are a ton of games that dont attempt to cross this line.

that said ive never understood the whole no R rated nonsense. yes yes the prophets have bashed R rated movies constantly and i do see there point at times. but perhaps its just me but as anyone read the book of revelation? really guys that book smokes some R rated movies and makes quite a few look G rated. the old testament? The Lord on a number of occassions is downright violent including destroying all but what 8 people? the book of alma is particullary brutal. the last bit of the book of mormon is certainly beyond R rated. probably even XXX rated at points even more so I was aware of this but my sister who knows the scriptures like the back of her hand pointed out there is even canniablism in the book of the mormon. i mean pretty much everyone dies at the end of that book and in brutal detail too. and lets not forget limbs getting cut off and slavery and murder and whoredoms all spelled out in great detail.

so i do wonder why R rated movies are bad yet our scriptures completely destroy many R rated movies. and of course life isnt PG-13 its XXX and we need to learn to be able to deal with that.

not saying you need to watch R rated movies all the time but I am saying i dont quite get this ban on them and i dont see why they are all bad.

there is of course romanticism which is the opposite effect a society that shuns this R rated filth to the extreme. they become too sensistised(spelling?) and unable to accept reality and always expect a white knight in shining armor to save them. so there needs to be balance somewhere.

however being here in utah for the past year i think utah falls under the romanticism extreme side which is just as bad as polluting your brain with porn or even torture porn.

[volgadon]

This doctrine is taught uniformly throughout all scripture, indeed throughout all Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam. I realize that Catholics pray to beings other than the Father, but as far as I know, they are alone among Christians (in fact, among monotheists) in doing so.

So do Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Jews, and Muslims. You will find that a religion without intercessors is the minority.

[Guest gopecon]

Kayne there are certainly stories in the Book of Mormon and Bible that if fully detailed on screen would be R rated, but they are there for a point. For one, it is a lot different to read that thousands of people were killed than to watch the horror of it on screen. Bad things happen in life, you can't hide from that fact. Celebrating and reveling in the horrors as some movies do is when we have problems. We are taught to seek after anything "virtuous, lovely, or of good report".

[Blackmarch]

The latter is natural. The former is not. That's how I see the difference.

...not that I disagree when you say that at a certain point it's like violence porn... I think on some level they're trying to reach ever greater heights of graphic content as a way of trying to shock the audience.

I don't think either are natural- they both pervert feeling and morality into something that is wrong and if followed to their ultimate finality, violence will end up at murder and lust ends up at adultery/fornication...... and generally they both cross paths at multiple points along the way.

I just think people are more comfortable with porn because it has a more subtle slope more often than violence does.

and yes they are trying for higher heights in both categories, because of a couple things -

it dulls the senses, so the masses will allow/want more... and once the senses are dulled to it it takes more to titillate.

Duly noted.

Actually I once had a chance to shake hands with a WWII vet... I was at an air show and was inside an actual B-17 from the war and it turned out the elderly gentleman behind me had been a B-17 ball turret gunner. That was an awesome moment.

OK now i'm jealous. Edited August 30, 2011 by Blackmarch

[JudoMinja]

fadedleaf- I'm confused. Your stats show that you are LDS, but you are referring to the animism of Native Americans as "my religion".... Do you simply mean that this was the religion of your ancestors, or do your stats need to be updated?

There is nothing wrong with the tenants of the religious practices you are describing, per se. If you truly believe that it is the more correct path, then by all means follow it. There is certainly plenty of support for the idea of an earth Goddess, Mother or "Gaia". If you think it is right, follow it. However, for those who believe in the teachings of the Bible, it would be rather rediculous to pray to anyone other than our Father in Heaven. While vort did not lay out any specific references for you, he is certainly correct that the topic of prayer and who we should pray to is covered ed nauseum in the scriptures. I do not see why you would be confused about this, if you actually are LDS and have read the scriptures...

As for the "violence" of killing animals that brought this topic on, I think there is definitely a major difference between killing animals and killing human beings. Killing human beings is wrong, period. There are some rare exceptions regarding wartimes and the protection of home, family, and liberty, but it is pretty clear that killing human beings = sin. When the death of an animal has a purpose, this is not a sin. Animals are here for us for various reasons and some of those reasons include being killed and eaten. I think that situations involving animals can only be regarded as violent when someone is purposely going out of their way to maim, torture, or harm an animal for no good reason. If we are to cause an animal suffering, it should be as limited and humane as possible, and discontinued if it is becoming too extreme.

I originally brought the animals up though, because even though many have no problem eating a hamburger and disconnecting themselves from the actual source of that food, these same people would have a hard time seeing an animal in any real pain or suffering. I only have a problem with it if someone is actually being cruel to the animal. I have no problem causing an animal pain when that pain has a purpose- for example, setting a broken wing or euthanizing an animal to put it out of its misery or hunting. While killing an animal is not on the same level as killing a human, I still think that many situations involving animals could be considered violent or extreme in content.

[kayne]

Kayne there are certainly stories in the Book of Mormon and Bible that if fully detailed on screen would be R rated, but they are there for a point. For one, it is a lot different to read that thousands of people were killed than to watch the horror of it on screen. Bad things happen in life, you can't hide from that fact. Celebrating and reveling in the horrors as some movies do is when we have problems. We are taught to seek after anything "virtuous, lovely, or of good report".

well any book is more detailed than a movie and i think the same applies here. i still wonder how it is good in the scriptures but bad in a movie? yes i get the fact its history and it needs to be taught. but i still dont see how its good in one aspect but bad in another especially when a lot of movies cut the camera angles so you dont see the head come off something the scriptures make no bones about spelling out especially if you have an imagination.

[Guest fadedleaf]

fadedleaf- I'm confused. Your stats show that you are LDS, but you are referring to the animism of Native Americans as "my religion".... Do you simply mean that this was the religion of your ancestors, or do your stats need to be updated?

There is nothing wrong with the tenants of the religious practices you are describing, per se. If you truly believe that it is the more correct path, then by all means follow it. There is certainly plenty of support for the idea of an earth Goddess, Mother or "Gaia". If you think it is right, follow it. However, for those who believe in the teachings of the Bible, it would be rather rediculous to pray to anyone other than our Father in Heaven. While vort did not lay out any specific references for you, he is certainly correct that the topic of prayer and who we should pray to is covered ed nauseum in the scriptures. I do not see why you would be confused about this, if you actually are LDS and have read the scriptures...

As for the "violence" of killing animals that brought this topic on, I think there is definitely a major difference between killing animals and killing human beings. Killing human beings is wrong, period. There are some rare exceptions regarding wartimes and the protection of home, family, and liberty, but it is pretty clear that killing human beings = sin. When the death of an animal has a purpose, this is not a sin. Animals are here for us for various reasons and some of those reasons include being killed and eaten. I think that situations involving animals can only be regarded as violent when someone is purposely going out of their way to maim, torture, or harm an animal for no good reason. If we are to cause an animal suffering, it should be as limited and humane as possible, and discontinued if it is becoming too extreme.

I originally brought the animals up though, because even though many have no problem eating a hamburger and disconnecting themselves from the actual source of that food, these same people would have a hard time seeing an animal in any real pain or suffering. I only have a problem with it if someone is actually being cruel to the animal. I have no problem causing an animal pain when that pain has a purpose- for example, setting a broken wing or euthanizing an animal to put it out of its misery or hunting. While killing an animal is not on the same level as killing a human, I still think that many situations involving animals could be considered violent or extreme in content.

I'm going to be as gentle a possible in my words. The only reason why I'm responding to you is because, thus far, you seem to be somewhat open to reason. The reason for my... passion... in regards to Biblical teachings stems from our current rendition of the scriptures, which was edited that way: hence, if we all have the same road map than everyone should arrive to the same place? - wrong. Biblical doctrine is clear in some respects, and than leaves gaping holes in the plot in others. The scriptures does, however, make clear its sexism against a goddess, even punishing those who want to worship her. If she's not real then who cares? - My neighbor worships her cat, and I don't care. The purpose for the "Anger of God" when worshiping a female deity is so that you won't; then, hopefully, if one abides by that rule they will obey the rest. Uniformity is the quickest path to becoming indentured, or bound if you will, by the iron bars erected in your brain. And I don't see myself by being bound by what I know, but simply what was left out, or was not told. In my opinion consciously leaving out information is as good as lying - there are many that will argue this point. I used to work in a billing department where not informing the customer was part of the job.

So lets move on,

it would be rather rediculous to pray to anyone other than our Father in Heaven. While vort did not lay out any specific references for you' date=' he is certainly correct that the topic of prayer and who we should pray to is covered ed nauseum in the scriptures. I do not see why you would be confused about this, if you actually are LDS and have read the scriptures...[/quote']

Two things:

1. Is asking Jesus for forgiveness not praying to someone other than God the Father? In the Church do we not believe in the Trinity? Do we not confer the Holy Ghost onto those who are baptized? - Why not confer a single God instead? I have heard people ask Heavenly Father to guide them, true, but who does God send? - The Holy Ghost. The Church also accepts John 14:6, which specifically states NO ONE can come before God but through the Son. This ideology is repeated several times in the BoM. I therefore implore everyone, LDS or otherwise, to give thanks for the Atonement, which several already do.

2. Is it ridicules to think that God made the world by Himself? In LDS theology we are taught that Jesus created the world we live on; I'm willing to accept that. In Elders Quorum I have heard it taught that you and I may have helped shape the world in our pre-mortal life (I'm not sure if this is doctrine or conjecture).

The second part of answer 2, I don't buy the whole "God did it by Himself" theory. If we open to Genesis Chapter 1 we will find the story of creation, "In the beginning," blah blah blah blah... 26. "And God said, Let us make man in our image.." Stopping right here I want ask, "Who is God talking to?" I know the dogma answers: Jesus, other angels, us, the Trinity. But heaven forbid we have the notion that He was talking to His Spouse. And I ask, If I want make a baby would I not ask a my wife? Going on to 27 we find, "So God rested man in his own image..." In the "old world" anything a woman owned was her husbands by right. If the Goddess created man then by implication it was God's property. Mind you, if I believe in the BoM then I have to concede the Bible is incomplete. As a testimony that completes Biblical scripture, so did the Goddess help to create man. Then moving on in Genesis the whole world is populated before the flood. My goodness how many children did Adam and Eve have? The answer is compacted mammals, such as human beings, can only interbreed so many times before deformities arise. It would seem that someone had the ability to rearrange DNA so that human race can exist. God did it? - Maybe. I'm not insulting His power, but I do assert that not everything has been made clear.

Who was on equal terms for God to speak so reverently to? Were the angels on equal footing as God? - No. The angels do as God commands unequivocally. Are we, in our pre-mortal life, on equal terms as God? - Again, No. If you picked Jesus you get one point (a possible idea). My personal belief is that if there was no one else on the whole planet then God was talking to the Goddess. Even in the Gospel Principles manual it says, "Man as a Spirit was begotten and born of heavenly parents," the concept doesn't preclude that fact that people can't be born here on Earth. And it certainly doesn't preclude that the Goddess gave birth to your soul. What would be the consequences of early Christian monks that edited (rewrote/ made-up) certain parts of Biblical scripture? What would have happened if Constantine, whom some give credit as being the real father of Christianity, told the women of Rome that half of all creation is theirs? The riot would have tore down the walls long before the Goths came.

So where is the Goddess? My grandmother once told me, "Look at the faces of all Her daughters walking the Earth and you will see Her." But again, this is a stupid Native idea that most America won't embrace.

I think my soapbox is wore out, so I'll step down now. I know I will get a lot of grief for doing this. Many people will pick me apart. But I was asked a question and I did my best to answer it, and that is all one really can do. I choose to worship the Goddess, in addition to Heavenly Father, because I have faith (my own, everyone is free to choose) she does exist.

Nevertheless, after all I've said, I do agree with what I consider to the the most important parts of the scripture: the atonement, redemption, Jesus was (and is) the Christ, God lives, and I believe in Joseph Smith's vision. I just do not, and can not, believe that everything is told.

Edited August 31, 2011 by fadedleaf
I apologize for hijacking.