Dating at BYU: an RM's roadblock

[LittleWyvern]

Well, here I go on my personal whine board again.

To the many of you who don't know me, I was an active member of this forum about 2.5 years ago, before I went on my mission. I have since came back home in June, and am now back at BYU (as I went to BYU for a year before going on my mission).

Of course, everybody know what an RM at BYU means. Dating! Marriage! Don't leave your YSA ward on Sunday without talking about it! I'm having a really hard trouble getting used to this sudden switch. I only got home in June, and already all my church leaders are telling me to get married. To give you an idea of my experience:

• 12-16 years old: Don't even think about dating.
• 16 - mission: Ok, you can go on dates, but only if you go on double dates, and are really careful, and go home before midnight, and bring a copy of For the Strength of Youth with you, and...
• mission - end of mission: "If you know the first names of any of the young sisters in your ward, ask to be transfered." - my mission president
• end of mission - now: Why aren't you married yet?

Now, I admit that I never really went on any formal dates during my 16 - mission years: the amount of youth in my stake then is what many of you are probably more familiar with as the amount of youth in a ward. It was hard going on dates with anybody, because if you liked somebody in your stake there, chances are they lived 2.5 hours away. I do regret this, though, and I think it's put me at a disadvantage.

This is where my whining turns to a request for advice: I feel I'm at a disadvantage in a field where everybody is a superstar. It's BYU! I feel like I just went from the minor leagues to the top level of the big leagues, and I'm still just the same old self that I was before. At home, I thought I was ok, that I'd be able to find dates because of the good qualities being a member of the LDS church provides. In my home city, that was unique. Cool, even. Now I'm thrust into a world where every guy is not only very much like me, but in most cases I feel that they are way beyond me. Yeah, I'm an RM, but just about everybody else is. Most of them served foreign missions, I didn't. Most of them are more mature, know a musical instrument (which I don't), have a cool hobby (uh... I'm majoring in computer science. Don't girls just love that?), or something that makes them stand out. I've only been at BYU for a week but I feel like I'm blending in like crazy. Add that to the fact that I've been kinda disadvantaged socially by not dating much during high school and I fade into obscurity.

And it really breaks my heart when I hear are these stories about young women not finding anybody who is a good honest LDS person. Every time I think "I'd like to meet you! I'm just not very findable!" I know it's my responsibility to seek out the young women but I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of spiritual giants.

So, the advice I'm looking for is where do I start? What do I do to really kickstart the dating process (keep in mind I'm more of a "dating for dummies" guy)? I've been trying to meet everybody that I can and going to a lot of different events but I never seem to make that connection where I can just ask somebody if they would like to do something random (that most probably involves ice cream at some point) and they judge that to be superior to doing mostly the same thing with all their other friends. Or, at least that's how I see it. I can see a few different answers to this question:

• I just plain need to swallow my pride, shape up, and improve my social skills before I can think about dating.
• I'm thinking too hard/trying to go too fast/etc.
• I have a horrible philosophy on dating.

Or, maybe the answer isn't any of those. Lucky for me this board is full of really smart people who are older than I am and who have a lot of experience in this field. I'm not looking for a cheat sheet, just a primer. Something I can base off of. Because right now I'm kinda lost.

And if you've gotten to this point, I'd like to personally thank you for reading this whole depressing thing.

[Guest]

Want me to set you up with my niece in Orem?

Seriously, relax. I dated a lot before I met DH, and even had a couple of relationships. When I met him, he was 24 and hadn't dated all that much. My experience dating and his relative inexperience didn't mean a lot. We met, we liked each other, we hung out and were friends, we started dating regularly, we fell in love. . . and eventually got married. Just be pleasant, show interest if you're interested, if you notice a girl who's interested in you, give her a fair shake. Go to activities. Serve. Magnify your callings. Have fun!

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

Eowyn said it, relax. Be yourself and be confident and comfortable in who you are, and sincerily listen and seek oportunities to meet the wonderful LDS women in the church. At the same time you have got to bite the bullet and ask the girls out, this shows confidence on your part. Yes, you will be rejected a few times but remember you could get rejected 50 times but the 51 time might just be the girl of your dreams, and she ends up crazy about you. So go to the singles dances and don't be a wall flower that a lot of people are. Ask the YW in your ward if they'd like to goto a church activity or ward FHE.

Don't sweat the time frame about getting married quicky. I think the church presures this right after missions to try and prevent people from straying into temptation. I could of almost written your post. Only two dates in highschool, no dances. Felt like there were so many men better than me after the mission. I took me awhile to realize I had a confidence problem and a fear of rejection. Once that was changed I saw things in a whole new light, rejection didn't bother me, I felt confortable with who I was and taking a chance on asking someone out. One thing I made a rule of was take the girl out at least twice. First dates can be rough and akward, you'll get to know someone and they you when you are both a bit more relaxed on the second date.

I was 25 when I got marred, 4 years after my mission. A releative recently got married and she is about 30 and he 27. I know two good LDS women and one good LDS man nearing 40 and never married. You still have a lot of life to live, don't rush it and enjoy getting to know people for awhile.

Edited September 2, 2011 by FixingTheWrongs

[Vort]

You have the wrong attitude. BYU is not the Major Leagues, with you competing against the best of the best. BYU is a gigantic candy store with every possible type and flavor, all for just pennies, and you've been turned loose. There is plenty to go around! You are not competing with anyone!

Now, if you just walk the aisles looking at the candy, thinking how sweet it would be but fearing to do any actual work of reaching out and getting it...well, that's a shame. Your mission, should you choose to accept it (and you should choose to accept it): Buy a piece of candy by the end of next week.

Look over the girls in your ward -- use the shopping list^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B^B ward directory, if necessary -- and pick out a few that you like. Then ask one of them out. Go to a movie, or go to the Cougareat for [insert whatever it is the Cougareat has these days -- Subway sandwiches, maybe], or hike up to the Y (make sure you bring a picnic lunch), or heck, just walk around Kimball Towers and talk about the awesome BYU football victory at Ole Miss, the game at Texas, and the upcoming slaughter of the Utes.

Then, rinse and repeat next week. Ask the same girl, if you liked her and want to try something new. Or ask another. Whatever. The point is, have fun socializing with the wimminfolk. They're soft and they smell nice.

BYU is truly (and I am being serious) one of the most awesome, beautiful, heavenly places in all of God's green earth. Take advantage. Don't be like the New Yorker who has never gone up the Statue of Liberty.

[LittleWyvern]

Ok, I get it. Thanks so much for the advice. If I had told myself to relax, I wouldn't believe myself (because my perfectionist mind often goes "OMG YOU FAILED TRY HARDER STUPID"), but now that I hear it from a lot of smart people it helps me relax. I'll definitely use the advice, it all sounded simple and natural to do.

And Vort: please don't compare it to buying candy, I already have enough of a problem with actual candy.

[FunkyTown]

The first thing you should know is that you are in a good position.

Seriously.

Most guys who need help in the dating arena are too proud to ask for help. This results in them making the same mistakes everyone makes.

Couple of things to remember:

1) There are a lot of women. A lot out there. If one doesn't like you, it's no big deal. You will get shot down, and that's okay.

2) Women are people. They are not marble statues and they are not meant to be put on a pedestal. They are normal human beings and want to be treated like you would your best friend, only with flirting as well.

3) Don't be the creepy guy who does the 'You're hot. What's your name? What do you do? What type of music do you like? You're hot. Did I say that already? LOL' - This does not establish any type of rapport. We do not talk to our friends like that. Conversations are usually a series of statements. Say something - Something they can get in to a conversation with.

4) Have something to say. Be original.

5) Ask people out.

6) Care about your appearance.

7) Talk to women. Actually talk to them with no alternative goals.

There's more to it than this, but that's the basics. Some guys think that only the jerks get women. This is because jerks do not care what the woman thinks. This shows up as a kind of artificial self-confidence. Care what other people feel, but don't worry about what they think of you. What they think is ultimately irrelevant.

[Guest Godless]

My family is pretty firmly rooted in BYU, particularly the wimminfolk, and the consensus seems to be that a lot of women at BYU are looking for one quality in a man, and one quality only, and that's RM status. Fortunately, my mom avoided that mentality. Not sure about my sister as I have yet to meet her new husband. Point is, be yourself. Don't put too much stock into the RM thing. Ask any East Coast mormon, they'll tell that that's not what makes a man great. The fact that you can't play ten instruments and didn't serve a mission in Zimbabwe gives you an advantage. Women will see the real you, and not just a bunch of BS (and the RM package can be full of that sometimes).

• I just plain need to swallow my pride, shape up, and improve my social skills before I can think about dating.

Improving your social skills never hurts, but don't obsess over it too much. My social skills are horrible, but that didn't stop me from finding the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. Again, be yourself. You want women to love you, not your social skills.

I'm thinking too hard/trying to go too fast/etc.

Yeah, probably. Forget about the pressure. If you're not ready for dating, then that's okay. Don't let anyone try to guilt-trip you into finding a wife.

I have a horrible philosophy on dating.

Not really. Just don't get hung up on the fact that you're in the "big leagues". As I said, the RM package can be overrated. The right woman is out there waiting for you to find her. It may take some time, but it'll be worth the wait. Just be patient and be yourself. Edited September 2, 2011 by Godless

[MarginOfError]

And above all, don't do anything you're not comfortable doing. For instance, don't start dating girls just because your leaders are telling you that you need to be dating and getting married. Don't be afraid to stand up to them and say, "who and when I date and marry is my business and not yours, bishop."

[kayne]

i feel like i am in a similar boat as TC though minus the RM status and not at BYU but UVU.

that said I think i probably share TC's pain but maybe worse. I sincerely suck at socializing. I can do the Hi my name is kayne followed by someone saying hi my name is allie or whatever. and possibly a where are you from tossed in there. beyond that i suck at making up stuff to talk about. toss me into a crowd where everyone is far more social ill get lost.

if that personality test thread is at all accurate and i do fit that description nicely i apparently have a personality that royally sucks with people(i scored INTP the apparent worst of the worst in that area(yes i read all 16 types lol) lol add two parents that anti social folks and my genes are just screwed). add the object of flirting in there and we just make that even worse.

now 1 on 1 with perhaps something in the background i can manage a bit more though for a while i might come off as question man. unfortunently this doesnt come up much. though if i enjoy your company by probably 6th or 7th time i see you i will come out of my shell a bit more just the type of person i am i guess or if i see you a lot in general. this works to make friends if i see the person enough and has gotten me by in life....but dating where all guys are on top of all girls instantly....i do get buried in the process oh yes and the girls travel in packs mentality.

so yes i feel TC's pain. and i suppose i might add this to it. what are good conversation starters cause i clearly admit i fail in this area and im guessing TC isnt too hot either. i could say hi im kayne wanna go out on a date....somehow that sounds too forward and i suspect they want somewhat of a conversation first even if it is just 5 minutes even then what to talk about on a first date? or a possible second date?

and i admit i signed up for the dating institute class which appears to be about self improvement as well which i am glad.

perhaps this is TC's problem as well. i have never had a high sex drive or urge to date in mass. nor do i have a high social drive. perhaps this is part of our problem?

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

I forgot to mention that during the first few dates avoid activities where you cannot talk to one another for an extended time, like the traditional movie date. Two hours staring at a screen with blaring sound isn't going to let you get to know her better or her you. Go for a walk in a park or picnic, mini golf, dancing, art gallery, something where you can actually have a conversation as well.

Save the movie date for when you are in a more serious relationship and can hold hands and cuddle.

[MarginOfError]

I forgot to mention that during the first few dates avoid activities where you cannot talk to one another for an extended time, like the traditional movie date. Two hours staring at a screen with blaring sound isn't going to let you get to know her better or her you. Go for a walk in a park or picnic, mini golf, dancing, art gallery, something where you can actually have a conversation as well.

Save the movie date for when you are in a more serious relationship and can hold hands and cuddle.

I don't necessarily agree. If a person has trouble engaging in conversation, going to a movie can be a big relief. It can also provide material on which to base discussion when the movie is over*.

* Discussion that is based on a common theme or experience is usually a better relationship builder than small talk.

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

I don't necessarily agree. If a person has trouble engaging in conversation, going to a movie can be a big relief. It can also provide material on which to base discussion when the movie is over*.

* Discussion that is based on a common theme or experience is usually a better relationship builder than small talk.

Good point, you could look at it that way. I did what I was more comfortable with.

[JudoMinja]

I never dated much in my teen years because it just didn't interest me. I wasn't concerned about socializing as I had "better" things to occupy my time. I wanted to learn about the things I loved- so I dove into my studies and got involved in extracurricular activities I enjoyed. Then it was a straight shot to college where I slowly started getting distracted. My studies started seeming less and less important as they seemed to become easier and easier and there were a lot more people around who enjoyed the same things I did to spend time with. I started getting interested in actually dating, and I slipped up. I let myself get too desperate and put blinders on- went with the first guy to show an interest in me despite warning signs that it wasn't a good idea.

I've learned quite a bit from that experience and a lot of it pertains to my current outlook on dating as a divorcee and single parent. Be careful. Don't rush things. Don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Stay close to the spirit and listen to His promptings. This is important advice no matter your gender. There is going to be a lot of pressure on you to get out there and date, but don't let the pressure drive your decisions. Don't let yourself become impatient or desperate. There is plenty of time, and there are plenty of women. :) Since you don't have very much experience dating under your belt, remember that what dates you go on now will help you identify the things that are important to you in a potential spouse. Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.

Aside from caution, remember that this time is also about YOU. Figure out what you like, what you want to be doing, and then do it. :) Try new things. Enjoy yourself! Be confident about who you are. Focus on the things you love and consider important in your life. Then look for people (women ) who share your passions. Don't change yourself to meet someone else's expectations- set your own expectations for yourself and live up to them. Do what makes you a stronger, more confident, happier person.

Most importantly, stay focused on your spirituality and spiritual growth. Don't let it all fall apart now that you're back off your mission. Do those things you know the Lord would want you to do. Seek spiritual knowledge, understanding and experiences. Put yourself in places where you can feel the Spirit, and I am sure that the Lord will guide you into a wonderful relationship. Whether it comes quickly or slowly doesn't matter. As long as you are following the path of righteousness, you will not miss out on the blessings of eternity.

[NeuroTypical]

I'm not sure I'm the best place to go for advice. When I was faced with the problem you are, I grew a goatee, went to the U, and got married at 26.

It was probably overkill, but it sure kept all those "RM Only" meat-market people far away from me - and whenever I read a story like yours, it makes me happy.

[Dravin]

I'm not sure I'm the best place to go for advice. When I was faced with the problem you are, I grew a goatee, went to the U, and got married at 26.

Freaky, I grew a goatee, went to U, and got married at 27.

[JudoMinja]

When I was faced with the problem you are, I grew a goatee, went to the U, and got married at 26.

Freaky, I grew a goatee, went to U, and got married at 27.

Okay, new advice:

Grow a goatee.

[skippy740]

I'm going to give you a different perspective coming from an introvert (me). Ready?

You need to be attractive to attract what you want, not a chaser. Don't chase women (or sisters for that matter). You need to become comfortable in your own skin as it were.

Here are some tips to help:

1. Volunteer! Within your ward, get involved with activities - even with planning them. Being a volunteer is a step towards personal leadership, even if it's just helping a family move.

2. Get a calling that gets you to interact with others.

3. Do home teaching. You never know who you might meet doing home teaching! (My parents met because my Dad was a faithful home teacher!)

4. Sing in the choir! (It's not that hard... and they'll love to get more male voices, even if they have to train you.)

5. Learn to mingle with others. After you finish an activity, mingle with others and don't be in such a hurry to leave. You'll find yourself being much more friendly with others. Find something to comment on and start up a conversation.

6. Speak up in class! Teachers of all kinds love participation.

So basically, be a likeable person who does little things to get noticed! Have fun with it.

Besides, you shouldn't get married until you've got a paying job, right? So don't worry about marriage. Just get yourself more comfortable with others and enjoying the journey. The destination will take care of itself.

[MarginOfError]

Word of advice that might make me sound petty, jealous, and overly-critical (because I'm never ever any of those):

In my brief stint at a single's ward, the [vocal] girls always seemed to swoon over the guys that always raised their hand in Sunday School. To me, however, it seemed like they were giving really superficial answers. But the mere act that they were answering every time somehow made the more spir'chal.

So building on Skippy's advice to be attractive to what you want to attract, if you want a woman with deeper spiritual ponderings, make sure your contributions during classes are meaningful and insightful. That will catch the attention of the higher quality females than will just answering everything

[Dravin]

Okay, new advice:

Grow a goatee.

Don't forget be in your mid-late 20s.

[skippy740]

Yeah... you don't want to open your mouth just to end up inserting your foot in it. :)

[JudoMinja]

Don't forget be in your mid-late 20s.

Maybe he doesn't need to be... Did you guys wait and decide to grow the goatee once you hit your mid-late 20s? If he grows it now, he might get married sooner.

[Dravin]

Maybe he doesn't need to be... Did you guys wait and decide to grow the goatee once you hit your mid-late 20s? If he grows it now, he might get married sooner.

He may not need to be, but maybe the magic is mid-late twenties and school, or mid-late twenties and goatee. This calls for a study.

[JudoMinja]

He may not need to be, but maybe the magic is mid-late twenties and school, or mid-late twenties and goatee. This calls for a study.

Yes it does... we should take a poll. Then we need MOE to do a statistical analysis of the results.

[Guest Godless]

I'm going with mid-late 20's being a requirement. I've been rocking the goatie for about 4 years now (except when military obligations prevent it) and am only now looking at the prospect of marriage at the age of 25, soon to be 26. So I think age is definitely a factor, though perhaps attending the U is merely optional.

[mrmarklin]

Married at 21-22 years old?

Are you independently wealthy?

Real men can support a wife, can you?

Real men support their families by having a good paying job and career.

Real men have a place to live in for their families, and means to raise and educate their children.

When you can answer the above questions affirmatively, consider marraige. Until then your immaturity for the job speaks for itself.

Yeah go ahead and date, but don't get marraied until YOU are ready. There are plenty of fine young women waiting to marry a real man.