Question about beliefs

[Tamrajh]

I am an active LDS member but I have some questions that I'd like answered and always forget about them when I'm at church. My Dad actually asked me the same question I've been pondering for years and it made me really want to get an answer.

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ? Why are black people still black? Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

Please don't take offense because I said black, I'm not trying to start anything about race or being PC. I'm never sure what the right word is to use so I go back to what I grew up with. Please focus on my question, not my language. I thank you in advance.

[Snow]

.

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ?

There not and they didn't. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment, not Jewish.

Why are black people still black?

Because skin pigment is permanent, not temporary.

Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

Maybe backwardness. Otherwise it's a mystery.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Snow
word change

[kayne]

in all reality the Jews are the most blessed because of the promises made to abraham and issac. and in fact those promsies are why each patriarchtical(spelling?) blessing attaches us to one of the 12 tribes. jospeh and ephraim if im not mistaken being the branch that takes adopted members that are direct blood relatives.

the jews are also free to accept Christ anyday they wish. they choose not too its their choice and their religion.

the jews also do deserve some punishment for being the ones getting Christ crucified You and your kids and probably some number of generations later are still gonig to suffer some pain for that one. yes its a roman punishment but it was the Jews that pushed the Romans into doing it. in fact the guy that gave the death order more than once said he could find no fault with Christ but the Jews kept on pushing it. consider this a political move.

the jews still being the chosen people are still of course naturally chased by Satan and i suspect the killing of Christ just scattered them to a ridiculous point. why there punishment is lasting for so long who knows though it does say more than once punishment can last to the third and 4th generation if the parents fall into iniquity which i suspect is what happened however if by the 3rd or 4th generation they are still in iniquity its likely not going to just magically change unless someone along the line has a change of heart.

blacks being blood relatives of cain is the likely culprit. also despite this even if some were worthy before 1978 the church had already in its short in history in a land of freedom of religion already suffered the wrath of the US military. i suspect they werent willing to take that fight yet but when MLK came along and finnaly broke the race barrier down for good it seemed like a good time to let blacks hold the priesthood. also The Lord forbid certain people from holding the priesthood this law was still in effect until He removed it.

why blacks are still black is yes for a few reasons. one is skin pigment. secondly them being black means they were closer to Satan and cain in the pre life they earned this trait in their pre life largely what you do in this life and how your life is here is indicated largely by how you were in the pre life. however do note their perfect frame is to be white and they will become white at some point. this a curse for being rotten scumbags at some point in their history of existence. you can see the effects of this clearly not to offend anyone but black crime is the highest of all the races. africa is an unhealthy rotting place of disease and early death and illiteracy and its primarly blacks. now of course some break this cycle and i am happy for them just as i would be for anyone else.

also the people that got cursed with dark skin obviously did have kids....this carried on to them.

again not to offend anyone but that largely answers the questions that cant be answered without possibly offending people as the entire subject of blacks and the LDS church strikes many the wrong way. though do remeber this curse will be lifted eventually.

[selek]

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ?

I'm sorry Tamrajh, but such thinking is not an artifact of LDS theology or doctrine.

Critics of the Church, Sons of Perdition, and the less-than-honest love to try and make us defend beliefs we don't actually hold- but the accusation simply doesn't hold water.

Going to the official teachings of the Church (and their lesson plan for Seminary) we find:

Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Resource Manual - 1 Nephi 16 - 22

Read 1Nephi 19:10–12 looking for the prophecies recorded in these verses, and discuss how they were fulfilled. Read 2Nephi 10:3–6 ; 25:12–15 looking for what led people to mock and crucify the Lord. Read 1Nephi 19:13–14 and ask:

• What would happen to the Jews who were at Jerusalem during the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ? Why? (see v.13 ).
• Were the descendants of the Jews at Jerusalem punished by God for the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ? (No; see Articles of Faith 1:2 .)
• Why would the Jews wander in the flesh for centuries, perish, and become “a hiss and a byword, ... hated among all nations”? (Because of their ongoing rejection of Jesus Christ and His gospel; see v.14 . Stress that the scriptures do not in any way encourage or excuse the persecution and hatred that others have heaped on the Jews.)

Read 1Nephi 22:5 , and then read and discuss the following statement by Elder BruceR. McConkie:

“Why was Israel scattered? The answer is clear; it is plain; of it there is no doubt. Our Israelite forebears were scattered because they rejected the gospel, defiled the priesthood, forsook the church, and departed from the kingdom. They were scattered because they turned from the Lord, worshipped false gods, and walked in all the ways of the heathen nations. They were scattered because they forsook the Abrahamic covenant, trampled under their feet the holy ordinances, and rejected the Lord Jehovah, who is the Lord Jesus, of whom all their prophets testified. Israel was scattered for apostasy. The Lord in his wrath, because of their wickedness and rebellion, scattered them among the heathen in all the nations of the earth” ( A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [1985], 515).

These verses and lesson plans make it perfectly clear: "the Jews" were not punished for the crucifixion of Christ.

Any travails they suffer (as with the rest of humanity) are for their ongoing, personal rejection of Christ- not because of some idiotic notion of "racial guilt".

Why are black people still black?

Because the "Mark of Cain" and "skin of blackness" mentioned in Scripture have absolutely nothing to do with skin color, pigmentation, or "race" as it is understood by the conventional laymen- despite less-than-honest attempts to conflate the two.

Yes, our forebearers (in many cases) fell into that trap and reflected the conventional wisdom of the time, but the educated and enlightened Latter-day Saint need not make the same mistake.

Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

The honest answer is that we don't know from whence the Priesthood Ban originated.

Joseph Smith ordained "black" members to the Priesthood- most notably, Elijah Able.

There are hints among the journals of the Brethren of that era that a revelation was received specifying the Priesthood be limited to those of "non-African" descent- but that revelation has been lost to time. Only oblique references to it remain, and it was never recorded in the official annals of the Church.

Contrary to popular belief, the priesthood is not a right- it is a privelege that the Lord can extend to whomever he feels is qualified- or deny on the same basis.

Contrary to what the apostates, Sons of Perdition, and racebaiters might pretend, the Priesthood has ALWAYS been very denied to the vast majority of humanity.

In Biblical times, it was even denied to all but a small tribe of God's chosen.

Over the entire history of mankind, it could be argued that far less than 1% of humanity has been priveleged to hold the Priesthood.

It is, however, a fundamental tenet of Mormon faith that NO ONE- I repeat NO ONE- can or will be denied a blessing that the Lord wishes them to have.

Whether our Priesthood leaders erred in enforcing "the Ban" or not, God's justice will not be thwarted.

No one has been or can be denied a blessing and privelege that the Lord wants them to have.

Please don't take offense because I said black, I'm not trying to start anything about race or being PC. I'm never sure what the right word is to use so I go back to what I grew up with. Please focus on my question, not my language. I thank you in advance.

No offense is taken.

I'm an American mutt- with both Jewish and African American roots.

Forty years ago, I would have been denied the Priesthood based on my lineage. And yet neither I nor my forebearers hold a grudge or have an axe to grind.

It's kind of pathetic that critics of the Church (and those who wish to undermine the testimony of the faitful) have to reach more than three decades into our past to find anything to complain about.

Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[Guest Godless]

Kayne, I'd like to see some doctrinal basis for your assertions that the Jewish race is being punished for Christ's crucifixion and that black people are being punished for sins in the pre-existence. I'm fully aware of LDS beliefs regarding the curse of Cain and his seed, but I've never heard anything about people being punished for mistakes they may have made in the spiritual realm.

[selek]

. I'm fully aware of LDS beliefs regarding the curse of Cain and his seed, but I've never heard anything about people being punished for mistakes they may have made in the spiritual realm.

During the first half of the twentieth century, some members of the Church (including General Authorities) SPECULATED about "valiant spirits" versus the "less-than-valiant".

This speculation was NEVER a doctrine or official belief of the Church and was specifically repudiated in 1978 and afterward.

Ironically, those who wish to do so can find many "racist" statements made by previous generations of Latter-day Saint leaders, which are offensive (or even ridiculous) to modern ears.

These men were, inescapably, the product of their education and the beliefs of the time.

Despite what we may wish, Prophetic calling does not relieve men of the burden of being human, nor does it automagically invest them with infinite wisdom and "modern" sensibilities.

What has remained consistent, however, is that- compared to their contemporaries of any era- the members and leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have (as a whole) consistently been at the forefront of the movement to treat their brethren with the dignity and respect due their brethren as sons and daughters of the Most High God.

Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[kayne]

Kayne, I'd like to see some doctrinal basis for your assertions that the Jewish race is being punished for Christ's crucifixion and that black people are being punished for sins in the pre-existence. I'm fully aware of LDS beliefs regarding the curse of Cain and his seed, but I've never heard anything about people being punished for mistakes they may have made in the spiritual realm.

well the jews did kill Christ so.....to expect they went unpunished boggles my mind a bit. as to whether it is still on going or how long it lasted that i dont think we know for certain.

there is in moses somewhere it says cain was perditioned before he was born. this clearly indicates he was a whackjob killer before he was born. this is also where son of perdition gets coined.

also i think its abraham where he sees many of the great and noble spirits in the pre life preparing to be kings and prophets.

the temple endowment session....peter,james,john

lets not forget michael or adam or even Jesus or even Mary.

a number of patriachal(spelling?) blessings mention a persons premortal life. mine has a whole paragraph on it.

so there plenty of references to our status now and our status then.

[selek]

in all reality the Jews are the most blessed because of the promises made to abraham and issac. and in fact those promsies are why each patriarchtical(spelling?) bless

There is a movement in Jewish (and non-Jewish) thought that the Hebrews were chosen to be the exemplar and the standard bearers- the model for the rest of us to learn from.

That having been said, there is no evidence in LDS theology or belief to suggest that they (as a people) are more blessed or more damned than any other faithful (or faithless) believers of the Most High God. At worst, it could be argued that their plight is the "most public" example of rules and covenants that apply to humanity as a whole.

the jews are also free to accept Christ anyday they wish. they choose not too its their choice and their religion.

See above. Additionally, contrary to conventional wisdom, Christianity- in any of it's variant forms- is a MINORITY religion on this planet.

Anyone- at any time- can choose to accept or to deny Christ and his ministry.

There is no evidence that "the Jews" are being singled out for thier dissension.

the jews also do deserve some punishment for being the ones getting Christ crucified

This statement is complete and utter rot- and has not and will not be heard over a Latter-day Saint pulpit, let alone in official LDS publications or doctrines.

Those who deserve punishment for the crucifiction of Christ have been dead for two millenia, and undoubtedly have cause to lament their decision....but there is no evidence nor LDS theology which places that blood price on the hands of their descendants.

You and your kids and probably some number of generations later are still gonig to suffer some pain for that one. yes its a roman punishment but it was the Jews that pushed the Romans into doing it. in fact the guy that gave the death order more than once said he could find no fault with Christ but the Jews kept on pushing it. consider this a political move.

See Above.

<< Snip the rest of the psuedo-intellectual anti-Semetic nonsense>>

blacks being blood relatives of cain is the likely culprit. also despite this even if some were worthy before 1978 the church had already in its short in history in a land of freedom of religion already suffered the wrath of the US military. i suspect they werent willing to take that fight yet but when MLK came along and finnaly broke the race barrier down for good it seemed like a good time to let blacks hold the priesthood. also The Lord forbid certain people from holding the priesthood this law was still in effect until He removed it.

why blacks are still black is yes for a few reasons. one is skin pigment. secondly them being black means they were closer to Satan and cain in the pre life they earned this trait in their pre life largely what you do in this life and how your life is here is indicated largely by how you were in the pre life. however do note their perfect frame is to be white and they will become white at some point. this a curse for being rotten scumbags at some point in their history of existence. you can see the effects of this clearly not to offend anyone but black crime is the highest of all the races. africa is an unhealthy rotting place of disease and early death and illiteracy and its primarly blacks. now of course some break this cycle and i am happy for them just as i would be for anyone else.

This particular batch of especially noxious nonsense is neither doctrine nor belief of the Church and has been specifically repudiated by the Church itself. Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[selek]

well the jews did kill Christ so.....to expect they went unpunished boggles my mind a bit.

Incorrect. "The Jews" did not kill Christ anymore than "the Chinese" invented Spaghetti-O's.

A certain segment of the Jewish leadership conspired to have Christ killed because he was a threat to their political and religious power.

That belief that this cabal- unlikely to have numbered more than a few dozen individuals- has somehow tainted every Jew, everywhere is both idiotic and racist on its face, and does not stand up to scrutiny by ANYONE actually familiar with Latter-day Saint theology or belief.

there is in moses somewhere it says cain was perditioned before he was born. this clearly indicates he was a whackjob killer before he was born. this is also where son of perdition gets coined.

I don't think you understand the scriptures you're "quoting", but why don't you cite them, just for argument's sake?

also i think its abraham where he sees many of the great and noble spirits in the pre life preparing to be kings and prophets.

the temple endowment session....peter,james,john

lets not forget michael or adam or even Jesus or even Mary.

a number of patriachal(spelling?) blessings mention a persons premortal life. mine has a whole paragraph on it.

so there plenty of references to our status now and our status then.

Again, you're extrapolating far in excess of your data, and butchering Latter-day Saint theology in the process.

The speculation that "blacks" were relegated to second-class status because of their pre-mortal behavior was not, never has been, nor ever will be the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It was specifically repudiated by Brigham Young (arguably, one of the most "racist" Latter-day prophets in our history):

Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Repudiated ideas/Neutral in "war in heaven" - FAIRMormon

The most well known of these was the statement made by Bruce R. McConkie in his book Mormon Doctrine. McConkie offered the following opinion:

Those who were less valiant in the pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin...but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, based on His eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.[5] These statements by 20th century leaders did not represent thinking that was unique to the Church, but instead reflected ideas which were much more prevalent in society during the 1950's and 1960's.

When the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978, McConkie retracted what he had said previously:

Forget everything I have said, or what...Brigham Young...or whomsoever has said...that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.[6] Modern Church leaders teach that everyone who came to earth in this day was "valiant" in the premortal existence. Elder M. Russell Ballard, talking of today's youth, said in 2005:

Remind them that they are here at this particular time in the history of the world, with the fulness of the gospel at their fingertips, because they made valiant choices in the premortal existence.[7]

Repudiated

Some members and leaders explained the ban as congruent with the justice of God by suggesting that those who were denied the priesthood had done something in the pre-mortal life to deny themselves the priesthood. President Kimball was reported as repudiating this idea following the 1978 revelation:

President Kimball "flatly [stated] that Mormonism no longer holds to...a theory" that Blacks had been denied the priesthood "because they somehow failed God during their pre-existence."[8]

Conclusion

The idea that anyone who came to earth was "neutral" in the premortal existence is not a doctrine of the Church. Early Church leaders had a variety of opinions regarding the status of blacks in the pre-existence, and some of these were expressed in an attempt to explain the priesthood ban. The scriptures, however, do not explicitly state that the status or family into which we were born on earth had anything to do with our "degree of valiance" in our pre-mortal life.

Kanye- your ideas and theories have been specifically repudiated by the Prophets of the Lord, not the least of which are Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, and Spencer W. Kimble.

I will take their word as authoritative over yours any day of the week, and twice on days ending in "y".

Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[Guest Godless]

well the jews did kill Christ so.....to expect they went unpunished boggles my mind a bit. as to whether it is still on going or how long it lasted that i dont think we know for certain.

Doctrinal basis? What boggles my mind is the idea that an entire race can be punished for the actions of their ancestors. It seems to mock the concept of personal accountability.

there is in moses somewhere it says cain was perditioned before he was born. this clearly indicates he was a whackjob killer before he was born. this is also where son of perdition gets coined.

I'm not talking about Cain. I'm talking about his descendents. Is there doctrinal evidence to suggest that every black person alive today screwed up in the pre-existence?

Edited September 2, 2011 by Godless

[kayne]

There is a movement of Jewish (and non-Jewish) thought that the Hebrews were chosen to be the exemplar and the standard bearers- the model for the rest of us to learn from.

That having been said, there is no evidence in LDS theology or belief to suggest that they are more blessed or more damned than any other faithful believers of the Most High God.

the whole 12 tribes of israel thing eh has nothing to do with the jews being a chosen people at some point eh? if they werent so blessed well every blessing wouldnt attach us to one of the 12 tribes now would it? seriously the jews were and probably still are the most blessed people around. however not accepting Christ in the last 2000 years has probably been the reason they arent so blessed these days. but considering an end day prophecy is the jews will accept Christ and He will come unto them and ask why His people killed him...i think just proves yes more than a few dozen jews wanted him dead. and also the amount of blessings He wants to give them are staggering.

See above. Additionally, contrary to conventional wisdom, Christianity- in any of it's variant forms- is a MINORITY religion on this planet.

Anyone- at any time- can choose to accept or to deny Christ and his ministry.

There is no evidence that the Jews are being singled out for thier dissension.

not even sure what your argueing with me about here...

This statement is complete and utter rot- and has not and will not be heard from the Latter-day Saint pulpit.

Those who deserve punishment for the crucifiction of Christ have been dead for two millenia, and undoubtedly have cause to lament their decision....but there is no evidence nor LDS theology which places that blood price on the hands of their descendants.

and those dead people is who i was talking about. as i said i have no idea how long that punishment lasted. maybe read my entire quote instead

Incorrect. "The Jews" did not kill Christ anymore than "the Chinese" invented Spaghetti-O's.

A certain segment of the Jewish leadership conspired to have Christ killed because he was a threat to their political and religious power.

That belief that this cabal- unlikely to have numbered more than a few dozen individuals- has somehow tainted every Jew, everywhere is both idiotic and racist on its face, and does not stand up to scrutiny by ANYONE actually familiar with Latter-day Saint theology or belief.

**** chinese and spaghett-o's bringing down western civilization as we know it

so only a few dozen wanted Christ dead? really? im fairly certain more than a few dozen wanted him dead somehow logic makes me think that. nor did i say every jew suffered this punishment certainly faithful ones wouldnt. but i guess next time ill say "and the jews that hated Christ of which i am sure more than a few dozen existed else rome wouldnt of have political pressure to do the crucifixation see above.

Kanye- your ideas and theories have been specifically repudiated by the Prophets of the Lord, not the least of which are Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, and Spencer W. Kimble.

I will take their word as authoritative over yours any day of the week, and twice on days ending in "y".

i was unaware the church changed its views my apologies. but my thinking was apparently right i just didnt know the prophets completely did a 180. they dont normally do that. and in this case i wonder why it doesnt make much sense when a lot of stuff previously and even in the scriptures points to merit based on the pre life. never midn the fact marked with black skin is in more than one place done as a curse for being evil so the churches change on position seems to conflict with the scriptures. considering this...im not sure the church knows its stuff on the matter anymore so ill go with the scriptures that use dark skin as punishment to prove those folks probably screwed up to deserve it.

I'm not talking about Cain. I'm talking about his descendents. Is there doctrinal evidence to suggest that every black person alive today screwed up in the pre-existence?

your right maybe there isnt. but cain was marked. his descendents were marked. and i forgot we got flooded and killed. but at some point the mark returned and much like when cain got it it wasnt cause these were a good people. besides even if they did screw up they are here now with equal chance to accept the gospel isnt that good enough? though that said logic does tell us there were celestial,telestial,terrestial and sons of perdition in the pre life. so not entirely unreasonable to think your born with that same personality.

and considering abaraham saw many of the great and noble spirits im fairly certainly The Lord wouldnt send a future prophet to a place on the earth with no chance of getting to his intended destination which means He wont send you to the poorest place in the world with no way out and left to be an illiterate goon until you reach age 40 and magically your a prophet now. no read the book mothers of prophets you will quite clearly see The Lord gives us reward based on our pre life. and of course see a comment later in this post and my previous post which you never really argued that point.

Doctrinal basis? What boggles my mind is the idea that an entire race can be punished for the actions of their ancestors. It seems to mock the concept of personal accountability.

again the faithful jews likely werent punished. but that said a parents sins can pass to the child quite easily. a parent stuck in poverty likely creates a child in the same manner. a drunk for a dad will likely create a drunk for a child. its basic modern psychology. now these kids dont have to follow these footsteps but they are predisposed to it and more likely to do so. and again those marked with dark skin their kids obviously have it. so parents can in ways screw their children but the children are still responsible for themselves at the end of the day. your parents raise you they influence you to suggest otherwise is simply crazy and if they are murderers well that too will influence you.

I don't think you understand the scriptures you're "quoting", but why don't you cite them, just for argument's sake?

ok i cant recall where that one is though i swear its in the book of moses somewhere but here book of moses chapter 4 the entire bit about the pre life. if that doesnt prove what we did then affects us now i have no clue what will. Satan becomes Satan. Jesus solidifies himself as the savior. really what more proof do we need? a whole 1/3 of the host of heaven screwed themselves because of their prelife actions. this is far better proof than the bit about cain anyway. never mind all the other examples i pointed out prove my point. if you cant accept it im not sure why. Cain was probably a telestial(third world cant remeber which is which ever) person at best before he was born in fact theres no reason to think cain and him werent buddy buddy in the pre life. theres a lot of speculation yes its not too far fetched that to think cain wasnt already on good terms with Satan before he was cast out. while that part is speculation what isnt is our pre life affects our current life.

[selek]

the whole 12 tribes of israel thing eh has nothing to do with the jews being a chosen people at some point eh? if they werent so blessed well every blessing wouldnt attach us to one of the 12 tribes now would it?

Whether there were twelve tribes or 200, you still haven't provided any EVIDENCE to support your claims.

In point of fact, the simple fact that the faithful are being adopted/grafted into the Twelve Tribes demonstrates rather clearly that the initial designation of "Jew" and "Gentile" were both comparatively arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.

If we ALL ultimately wind up in one of the Twelve Tribes, then we're ALL entitled to those blessings and ALL (according to your "logic") equally cursed.

seriously the jews were and probably still are the most blessed people around.

Call For References. Please substantiate your claim with something authoritative and factual, rather than your unvarnished opinion.

...but considering an end day prophecy is the jews will accept Christ and He will come unto them and ask why His people killed him...i think just proves yes more than a few dozen jews wanted him dead.

The operative word there being "think". We've seen your opinion. Do you have any facts to back it up?

and those dead people is who i was talking about. as i said i have no idea how long that punishment lasted. maybe read my entire quote instead

I read your entire quote, and cited most (if not all) of it.

You didn't specify the Jewish leadership.

You didn't specify the Sanhedrin.

You didn't even specify "the Jews who wanted Christ dead."

You simply pontificated about "the Jews", which implies the Jewish people as a whole. Further, your argument implicitly and explicitly condemned not only those with blood on their hands directly, but their descendants over the last two thousand years, as well.

As I'm not the only one who took exception to your scurrilous screed, perhaps the problem lies in your words and your stance, rather than your audience.

so only a few dozen wanted Christ dead? really? im fairly certain more than a few dozen wanted him dead somehow logic makes me think that.

If logic brings you to that conclusion, then you shouldn't have any problem substantiating the claim, now should you?

And yet, I somehow expect either a ringing silence or a rant that will make the ADF take note.

nor did i say every jew suffered this punishment certainly faithful ones wouldnt. but i guess next time ill say "and the jews that hated Christ of which i am sure more than a few dozen existed else rome wouldnt of have political pressure to do the crucifixation see above.

Such specificity and clarity can only serve to make you look less foolish in future.

i was unaware the church changed its views my apologies.

On the contrary, despite what fools, apostates and Sons of Perdition would have you think, the Church DIDN'T change its views.

The idiocy and bigotry you tried to pawn off on the Church have NEVER been part of official Mormon doctrine or theology.

but my thinking was apparently right i just didnt know the prophets completely did a 180.

They didn't- as pointed out above.

they dont normally do that. and in this case i wonder why it doesnt make much sense when a lot of stuff previously and even in the scriptures points to merit based on the pre life. never midn the fact marked with black skin is in more than one place done as a curse for being evil so the churches change on position seems to conflict with the scriptures. considering this...im not sure the church knows its stuff on the matter anymore so ill go with the scriptures that use dark skin as punishment to prove those folks probably screwed up to deserve it.

And yet, despite the quixotic and stiff-necked obstibacy you demonstrate, you've yet to provide ANY evidence to support a link between "a skin of blackness" as described in Scripture and melanin-rich skin tones such as we seen in those of African descent.

And just to further demonstrate your profound Scriptural ignorance on the matter, the mark Cain received was a protection, not a curse.

Moses 5: 36-41

36 And now thou shalt be acursed from the earth which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand.

37 When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her astrength. A bfugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

38 And Cain said unto the Lord: Satan atempted me because of my brother’s flocks. And I was wroth also; for his offering thou didst accept and not mine; my bpunishment is greater than I can bear.

39 Behold thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the Lord, and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that he that findeth me will slay me, because of mine iniquities, for these things are not hid from the Lord.

40 And I the Lord said unto him: Whosoever slayeth thee, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And I the Lord set a amark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

41 And Cain was ashut out from the bpresence of the Lord, and with his wife and many of his brethren dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

The mark of Cain was a blessing, not a curse- a warning to those who might otherwise kill him.

The curse which Cain suffered was not the mark, it was his status as a fugitive and vagabond, shut out of the presence of the Lord.

Further, contrary to your "pre-ordained to be damned" nonsense, Cain was told explicitly that if he offered an offering in righteousness, he would be accepted.

Moses 5: 22-23

22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?

23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be aaccepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan bdesireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will cdeliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt drule over him;

As always, it was Cain's sin that condemned him- not his birth.

your right maybe there isnt. but cain was marked.

Yes, as demonstrated. But the Scriptures do not specify what that mark was.

It is a tradition and conceit of man that the mark was dark skin- not the Scriptures or the doctrines of the Church.

There is simply no Scriptural or doctrinal evidence that the Mark of Cain was "black skin" as those of a century past would like to pretend.

his descendents were marked.

Really? Where does that appear in Scripture? It's not in the Books of Moses or Genesis.

Another verse which undermines your "lineage determines punishment" nonsense can be found in Verse 42 of the same chapter.

42 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bare Enoch, and he also begat many sons and daughters. And he builded a city, and he called the name of the acity after the name of his son, Enoch.

Is there any faithful Latter-day Saint out there who doesn't know the story of the City of Enoch?

and i forgot we got flooded and killed. but at some point the mark returned and much like when cain got it it wasnt cause these were a good people. besides even if they did screw up they are here now with equal chance to accept the gospel isnt that good enough?

You still haven't demonstrated any evidence- scriptural, doctrinal, or factual- to back up your claims.

though that said logic does tell us there were celestial,telestial,terrestial and sons of perdition in the pre life. so not entirely unreasonable to think your born with that same personality.

While it is indisputable that our behavior has some bearing on our estate in mortality, the quotes I provided earlier utterly destroy your "logic".

Every soul born upon this Earth was valiant in the pre-Existence. That statement is authoritative, and is not open to your rather shallow inferences about skin color.

Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial refer specifically to the Kingdoms we will inherit AFTER the final Judgement, not to our pre-mortal state.

and considering abaraham saw many of the great and noble spirits im fairly certainly The Lord wouldnt send a future prophet to a place on the earth with no chance of getting to his intended destination which means He wont send you to the poorest place in the world with no way out and left to be an illiterate goon until you reach age 40 and magically your a prophet now. no read the book mothers of prophets you will quite clearly see The Lord gives us reward based on our pre life. and of course see a comment later in this post and my previous post which you never really argued that point.

Setting aside the incoherent nature of the preceding paragraph, no one in this thread has claimed that we are not foreordained to fulfill the calling the Lord has commissioned.

That's a red-herring, at best.

YOU were claiming that birth into a "cursed" lineage was a punishment from God, one which has been effectively decimated.

That you wish to change the goalposts now merely demonstrates how foolish your initial position was.

again the faithful jews likely werent punished. but that said a parents sins can pass to the child quite easily. a parent stuck in poverty likely creates a child in the same manner. a drunk for a dad will likely create a drunk for a child. its basic modern psychology. now these kids dont have to follow these footsteps but they are predisposed to it and more likely to do so. and again those marked with dark skin their kids obviously have it. so parents can in ways screw their children but the children are still responsible for themselves at the end of the day. your parents raise you they influence you to suggest otherwise is simply crazy and if they are murderers well that too will influence you.

And again, you're attempting to change the goalposts from your indefensible initial position to something more tenable.

Unfortunately, this, too was addressed by the Church and the Seminary lesson plan cited above.

Despite your initial claims (and subsequent verbal gymnastics) your position has been soundly defeated.

"The Jews" were not punished for Christ's crucifixion, and the "Christ Killer" libel has been definitively shown to have nothing to do with LDS belief, theology, or doctrine.

But thank you for playing.

Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[selek]

ok i cant recall where that one is though i swear its in the book of moses somewhere but here book of moses chapter 4 the entire bit about the pre life.

Shall I quote chapter 4 in it's entirety?

Moses 4*

The only bit I see in there about the Pre-existence is that Satan rebelled and Christ submitted.

Not one word, jot, or tittle about your "lineage" being based on your pre-mortal behavior.

To paraphrase the great philosopher Inigo Montoya, "I don't think that Chapter says what you think it says..."

if that doesnt prove what we did then affects us now i have no clue what will. Satan becomes Satan. Jesus solidifies himself as the savior. really what more proof do we need? a whole 1/3 of the host of heaven screwed themselves because of their prelife actions.

And yet every bit of your position must be inferred, guessed at, and read into the Scriputre.

The Scriptures you cited don't SAY any of what you're arguing.

this is far better proof than the bit about cain anyway. never mind all the other examples i pointed out prove my point.

Considering the facility with which you abuse your sources, you haven't proven anything but your abysmal grasp of Scripture.

Given that the Prophets of the Lord have explicitly and specifically refuted your position, you've proven nothing but your abysmal grasp of LDS Doctrine.

if you cant accept it im not sure why.

Because those "in the know" have repeatedly, explicitly, and steadfastly contradicted you.

This, therefore, falls under the "and twice on days that end in 'y'" situation that I mentioned earlier.

Cain was probably a telestial(third world cant remeber which is which ever) person at best before he was born

In your OPINION.

The Scriptures (as cited) flatly contradict you in letter, verse, and prose.

in fact theres no reason to think cain and him werent buddy buddy in the pre life.

Except for that bit from the Prophets specifying that everyone born in this mortality was valiant in the Pre-existence.

Whether or not Cain and Satan were "buddy-buddy" as you put it, the fact that Cain was born here proves that he was valiant.

Your (unprovable) attempt at guilt by association is irrelevant.

If you look at the Scriptures, Lucifer was the "Son of the Morning Star", one of God's best and brightest before he rebelled and fell. As such it is inescapable that he "rubbed elbows" with others of "the great and noble spirits" in the pre-Existence.

Would it surprise you if that Jesus and Satan were buddy-buddy" as well?

theres a lot of speculation yes its not too far fetched that to think cain wasnt already on good terms with Satan before he was cast out. while that part is speculation what isnt is our pre life affects our current life.

And that's the penultimate problem you face.

Your entire argument is based upon speculation, inferrence, and a disastrously poor grasp of both Scripture and Doctrine.

Your claims and pretenses are explicitly contradicted by the authoritative statements of the Lord's prophets.

Edited September 2, 2011 by selek

[MarginOfError]

I am an active LDS member but I have some questions that I'd like answered and always forget about them when I'm at church. My Dad actually asked me the same question I've been pondering for years and it made me really want to get an answer.

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ?

It may not be that they were punished for crucifying Christ, but that men used that as an excuse and justification to persecute the Jews to accomplish ulterior motives. The statements in the scriptures that say that the Jews will be persecuted because they killed the Savior could be considered prophecy, even if it is self-fulfilling prophecy.

But when it boils down to it, when the Jews suffer hardship "because they killed Christ," it is usually a human being making the justification, not God. And that human being is either a) trying to cover up his true motives, or b) an idiot who doesn't comprehend Christ's message.

Why are black people still black?

Genetics. It's probably worth noting that the Israelites were a pretty racist group. Most civilizations were, in those days. It shouldn't be that surprising that their narrative history attempted to marginalize and subjugate another race. The actual scriptural evidence that black skin is related to righteous or unrighteous deeds is nigh non-existent.

Most explanations the are speculated by modern leaders ought to be evaluated in the context of their time. Racism was alive and well in 19th century United States. It is certainly plausible that early church leaders sought to rationalize what was already comfortable. To think that their ascendancy into church leadership purified them of such biases and imperfections would seem silly to me, especially in light of some of the flaws we've witnessed in church leadership history.

Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

Probably for a lot of reasons. I tend to believe it was an interaction of two large contributors.

First, early church leaders may have been racist.

Second, subsequent church leaders developed a culture in which the words of previous prophets were taken at face value and not questioned. Also, they grew up in a time in which racism was the norm. Combine the two, and it's very hard, cognitively, for them to turn back on a practice that was established in their childhood.

While some will disagree with me, I think it makes us stronger to acknowledge that the failings of humanity may have afflicted some of our policies. Assuming that every action and policy of the Church was the inspired will of God, personally handed to the prophet of the time makes me extremely uncomfortable. I don't believe in a micromanaging God, but a God that is willing to let us make and learn from our own (sometimes horrific) mistakes.

[Blackmarch]

I am an active LDS member but I have some questions that I'd like answered and always forget about them when I'm at church. My Dad actually asked me the same question I've been pondering for years and it made me really want to get an answer.

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ? Why are black people still black? Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

there is nothing that says that they are being punished for christ's crucifixion... throughout the scriptures a people are punished for the sins they are currently committing. also God allows consequences to happen, and an individual may do something that affects people for generations to come.

Dark skin is mainly determined by genetics as well as a relationship to exposure to the sun and when a group of people have been in a very sunny area long enough darker skins tend to develop over many years

Please don't take offense because I said black, I'm not trying to start anything about race or being PC. I'm never sure what the right word is to use so I go back to what I grew up with. Please focus on my question, not my language. I thank you in advance.

we don't know why blacks were prevented from the priesthood... theres been a lot of speculation, and many people had their opinions, some more reasonable than others, but when it gets down right to it we don't know ultimately, nor have we recieved a revelation as to why.

[skippy740]

blacks being blood relatives of cain is the likely culprit. also despite this even if some were worthy before 1978 the church had already in its short in history in a land of freedom of religion already suffered the wrath of the US military. i suspect they werent willing to take that fight yet but when MLK came along and finnaly broke the race barrier down for good it seemed like a good time to let blacks hold the priesthood. also The Lord forbid certain people from holding the priesthood this law was still in effect until He removed it.

why blacks are still black is yes for a few reasons. one is skin pigment. secondly them being black means they were closer to Satan and cain in the pre life they earned this trait in their pre life largely what you do in this life and how your life is here is indicated largely by how you were in the pre life. however do note their perfect frame is to be white and they will become white at some point. this a curse for being rotten scumbags at some point in their history of existence. you can see the effects of this clearly not to offend anyone but black crime is the highest of all the races. africa is an unhealthy rotting place of disease and early death and illiteracy and its primarly blacks. now of course some break this cycle and i am happy for them just as i would be for anyone else.

also the people that got cursed with dark skin obviously did have kids....this carried on to them.

again not to offend anyone but that largely answers the questions that cant be answered without possibly offending people as the entire subject of blacks and the LDS church strikes many the wrong way. though do remeber this curse will be lifted eventually.

This is one of the most racist posts I've ever read. Someone needs to upgrade their testimony to post-1978.

Please compare your beliefs about blacks with Article of Faith 1:2:

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

If we're going to be punished for sins, we are going to be punished for our sins committed in THIS life, not for any "unworthiness" of the pre-existance... which has NEVER been doctrinal.

I suggest a review of the following, to help you upgrade your testimony to 2011:

Lesson Outline For Teachers | BlacksInTheScriptures.com

Lesson Outline For Teachers

Purpose

• To help class members understand that God is truly no respecter of person
• To help class members understand and become prepared to teach truths regarding skin color
• To help class members become more dependent upon continual in depth study of all scripture and reliant upon the spirit of the Lord to receive truth and help others

Note: This outline is designed to be a brief but significant introduction to the subject matter. For more thorough scriptural coverage, play segment 2 of the Blacks in the Scriptures DVD series.

Object Lesson 1

Ask for a volunteer (Caucasian) wearing a white shirt. Ask class members what color is the shirt. Ask them to now imagine a color scale with white on one end. Now ask what is on the other end. (Black) What color is in the middle of that scale? (Gray) Now ask the class what color is the volunteer’s face. They can’t say white, because there’s a stark difference between their face and the white shirt they’re wearing.

Now ask, if you were to gradually darken volunteer’s face, what color would it become? (Brown) Yes. We are all just different shades of brown. There are no actual black or white people. Those are terms of separation created by man and used to justify elevating ones self and to degrade his brother.

Now show the unity wristband and the different shades of brown and deliver its message. There are no black or white people. We are all simply various shades of brown. We are truly all one and are commanded to be of one heart, of one mind and to be one.

Alternative Object Lesson

Pass around several unity wristbands and ask class members to find the shade closest to their skin color and then pass it on to those sitting near them. Once they’ve all had a chance, explain to them that all of the colors in the wristband are in the “brown” color scale. This demonstrates that there are no black or white people, that we are all various shades of brown. Blacks and whites are terms of separation created by man and used to justify elevating ones self and to degrade his brother.

Scripture Discussion and Application

SKIN COLOR

• 1 Samuel 16:7

Discuss how the Lord is teaching Samuel not to look on the outward appearance to judge one’s worthiness. And that the Lord does not see as man does, as He only looks upon the heart, but man judges by outward appearances. Ask - if the Lord is teaching the prophet Samuel not to look upon the outward appearances to judge worthiness, would it be in keeping with His own law if the Lord were to change someone’s skin color (Suggest Cain, Ham or Lamanites) encouraging man to focus on the outward appearance to judge one’s worthiness? Encourage each in attendance to think about this single gospel principal for themselves in relation to perceived skin color references in all of the standard works.

• Alma 55:4-8

Discuss how Moroni had to search among his people for a descendant of Laman because none of them stood out because of their skin color. This is much like not needing to conduct a search for African Americans in a Salt Lake City ward. There are so few and stand out so much so that searching would not be necessary. Discuss how Laman and the small number of Moroni’s men had to identify themselves as Lamanites because the Lamanites could not look at them and tell whether they were Nephites or Lamanites. Also, even in their presence, the scripture says “and they received them with joy” they could not tell that they were being deceived by Nephites posing as Lamanites.

• Jeremiah 8:21 & Jeremiah 14:2

Read, discuss and follow each footnote for the world “black” demonstrating that they refer to the spiritual state and not the literal color of skin (LDS edition of the standard King James Bible). Help class members to recognize that the footnoting of Hebrew Idiom reminds us that the Bible text is a translation from an ancient time and foreign language. That it was not given after the manner of our language, and that many times there is no direct translation from the original language. So it is critical to increase scripture study and prayer in order to come to clearer understanding. (See and read D&C 1:24)

• 2 Nephi 5:21

Read and ask what is meant by “skin” in this passage? Depending on their answers, remind them of the law taught by the Lord to the prophet Samuel in 1 Samuel 16:7. Read the following quote by Bruce R. McConkie given to CES instructors in August 1978, just two months after the revelation extending priesthood to all worthy males:

“Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and light line upon line and precept upon precept (2 Ne. 28:30; Isa. 28:9-10; D&C 98:11-12; 128:21). We have now had added a flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness, all the views and all the thoughts of the past.

Explain that with the additional light and knowledge, we received a new edition of the LDS scriptures 3 years later in 1981, which helped to clarify all that was misunderstood, and if they’d follow each new footnote added, that they will find that there are no loose ends, that all have been accounted for.

Follow new footnote “d” on the word “skin” to 2 Nephi 30:6. As you or a volunteer read this passage aloud, encourage the class to ask themselves individually, “what does the Lord want me to understand about “skin” that He inspired a new footnote to be put on the word and directed me to this passage?

• 2 Nephi 30:6

Read and point out that before the 1981 edition, the word “pure” was actually “white”. Then point out the new footnote on the word “scales” and follow it to the bottom of the page where it states clearly that “TG darkness spiritual, TG spiritual blindness”, indicating that the “skin” being spoken of is spiritual and not a literal, physical skin color, which is consistent with everything we’ve covered thus far.

• Jacob 3:8

Read and ask – What is taking place when we are brought before the throne of God? (Judgment) After receiving verbal response, ask if the Lord is going to judge us on our physical appearance? After receiving resounding “no’s”, explain that the skins being spoken of in this passage cannot be literal then, and must be spiritual. Read passage again. Explain that this is consistent with all that we’ve read thus far.

• 3 Nephi 2:15

Read and ask class members what does “skin” mean in this passage? Ask them to follow the new footnote on the word “white”, where they will find 2 Nephi 5:21, 2 Nephi 30:6 and Jacob 3:8. Explain again that there are no loose ends. All that made us believe that the Lamanites actually had a darker physical skin than the Nephites, now all have new footnoting or word changes to help us to understand that the passages are actually referring to spiritual darkness or spiritual blindness.

Special note for instructors

It’s important to be spiritually sensitive to your audience when teaching this issue. There will most likely be at least a few who struggle as they attempt to reconcile this new light in the scriptures with all that has been taught on these issues prior. You’ll want to manage your time to leave at least 10-15 minutes for this segment of the class which is design to help adjust the unrealistic expectation for church leaders to be perfect. We have found that the following help to ease their anxiety:

The Lord knew that errors would be made and that leaders would even sin. And if its ok with the Lord, who are we to judge? Christ was the only perfect one to walk the earth and all others must use the blessings of the atonement to overcome our human frailties.

D&C 1:24-28 – Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these acommandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their blanguage, that they might come to cunderstanding.

And inasmuch as they aerred it might be made known;

And inasmuch as they sought awisdom they might be binstructed;

And inasmuch as they sinned they might be achastened, that they might brepent; And inasmuch as they were ahumble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive bknowledge from time to time.

One of the difficult struggles Joseph Smith had came from Saints who were so married to their traditions, that they could not fully embrace the marriage to the Lamb of God.

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].” Joseph Smith

Brigham Young had great concern about the members falling into blind obedience or failing to seek their own spiritual confirmation regarding the pronouncements of church leaders:

“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

Conclusion

Encourage each class member to study and pray about each of the passages of scripture covered today in order to receive what God would have them know and understand. Remind them of our sacred covenants to help edify those around us and to help share the joy of the gospel with others, and that as they seek the Lord to know these truths, He will fill their lamps with oil that they might light that pathway to the gospel for others. Let them know that there is a wealth of information on the Blacks in the Scriptures website that they can simply read to aid in their study.

Share your testimony of your own personal journey to understand these truths and the witness of the spirit that came to you.

[skippy740]

we don't know why blacks were prevented from the priesthood... theres been a lot of speculation, and many people had their opinions, some more reasonable than others, but when it gets down right to it we don't know ultimately, nor have we recieved a revelation as to why.

And we won't. For two reasons:

1) It's simply not necessary. Why? Because the truth of the matter is not going to help people on their path towards salvation & eternal life.

2) Too many people believe that their church leaders are perfect, and our testimonies are fragile. Joseph Smith made many errors, and the Lord even called him to repentance many times. Brigham Young made many errors. Bruce R. McConkie writing Mormon Doctrine... was an error in and of itself. Our leaders are not perfect, but their overriding desire was to help us grow closer to our Heavenly Father.

Our church has evolved over many, many years. When Joseph Smith first organized the church, we didn't have tithing as a "commandment". The Word of Wisdom was simply good counsel.

These things took TIME. If the church was restored back then as it is today, I don't think the members of the church back then could've handled it.

[Snow]

secondly them being black means they were closer to Satan and cain in the pre...

Racism is not welcome here. Please take it elsewhere.

[Traveler]

I am an active LDS member but I have some questions that I'd like answered and always forget about them when I'm at church. My Dad actually asked me the same question I've been pondering for years and it made me really want to get an answer.

If we believe that we will each be punished for our own sins and not those of other people, why are the Jews still being punished for crucifying Christ? Why are black people still black? Why were they denied access to the priesthood for so long if they were worthy members?

Please don't take offense because I said black, I'm not trying to start anything about race or being PC. I'm never sure what the right word is to use so I go back to what I grew up with. Please focus on my question, not my language. I thank you in advance.

One thing we need to establish before the factors of your questions can be addressed is - What constitutes divine punishment or rewards? For the most part it would seem that people confuse punishment with reward. For example is wealth or poverty punishment or reward? Perhaps it is dependent on perspective and would be better answered based on if someone is interested in entering heaven or not.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

Bruce R. McConkie writing Mormon Doctrine... was an error in and of itself.

It certainly caused some controversy....but the second edition was done at the behest of the First Presidency and with the assistance of Spencer W Kimball.

[Guest gopecon]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount the writings of an apostle (Mormon Doctrine for example) just because there were a couple of notable errors in the first edition. Overall the book is a great reference tool. We don't discount all of Paul's epistles even though there are teachings that are outdated (those about women in church).

[bytor2112]

The Jews have had a rough go of it to be sure. There is ample scripture evidence to support that they have been a "hiss and a byword" because they rejected the Gospel and crucified the Messiah.

13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.

14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.

9 Nevertheless, the Lord has shown unto me that they should return again. And he also has shown unto me that the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, should manifest himself unto them in the flesh; and after he should manifest himself they should scourge him and crucify him, according to the words of the angel who spake it unto me.

10 And after they have hardened their hearts and stiffened their necks against the Holy One of Israel, behold, the judgments of the Holy One of Israel shall come upon them. And the day cometh that they shall be smitten and afflicted.

11 Wherefore, after they are driven to and fro, for thus saith the angel, many shall be afflicted in the flesh, and shall not be suffered to perish, because of the prayers of the faithful; they shall be scattered, and smitten, and hated; nevertheless, the Lord will be merciful unto them, that when they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer, they shall be gathered together again to the elands of their inheritance.

I am one of those who does believe that our pre-mortal choices did have an impact on who we are in this life. Just as their were "noble and great ones" and also varying degrees of intelligence, their were surely those whom the Lord knew would choose wrongly in this life as well....hence different degrees of glory.

[bytor2112]

While some will disagree with me, I think it makes us stronger to acknowledge that the failings of humanity may have afflicted some of our policies. Assuming that every action and policy of the Church was the inspired will of God, personally handed to the prophet of the time makes me extremely uncomfortable. I don't believe in a micromanaging God, but a God that is willing to let us make and learn from our own (sometimes horrific) mistakes.

I think this is an excellent point and really, really wish that it was a more common belief in the church. I read Rough Stone Rolling a while back and it so strengthened my testimony to know that Joseph Smith was not perfect ( alot more so than I) but stumbled along the mortal path as we ALL do. I do not believe in a micro-managing God....we wouldn't really need personal revelation if he too care of the thinking for us.

[skippy740]

well the jews did kill Christ so.....to expect they went unpunished boggles my mind a bit. as to whether it is still on going or how long it lasted that i dont think we know for certain.

there is in moses somewhere it says cain was perditioned before he was born. this clearly indicates he was a whackjob killer before he was born. this is also where son of perdition gets coined.

also i think its abraham where he sees many of the great and noble spirits in the pre life preparing to be kings and prophets.

the temple endowment session....peter,james,john

lets not forget michael or adam or even Jesus or even Mary.

a number of patriachal(spelling?) blessings mention a persons premortal life. mine has a whole paragraph on it.

so there plenty of references to our status now and our status then.

Think about this: has there ever been a patriarchal blessing that said "you were less valiant in the pre-existance and the Lord has little hope for you in this life"? What kind of a blessing would that be? It certainly wouldn't be inspiring or an inspired blessing.

Everyone that has received a patriarchal blessing that talks about their pre-mortal existance and how valiant we were and how righteous we desired to be.

[mnn727]

Kaynes explaination (post 3) reflects much 19th Century Protestant thought on the matter of the Jews. However nothing in actual Mormon Doctrine supports his/her views. Although many 19th Century Mormons including some Apostles dragged their old Protestant ideas with them when they converted. (remember all of the early members including Apostles were Converts)

As far as 2 and 3 Kaynes thoughts are also very old on this matter.

Let me share what Apostle Bruce R McConkie said after the ban was lifted in 1978:

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.... It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

Edited September 2, 2011 by mnn727