back by popular demand

[investigator01]

I have had a rough start getting past the introduction process but that’s ok. (It builds character and foundation). To those in previous posts I ask that we could please clean the slate. I apologize if I came on strong or asked the wrong thing. I simply wanted some help with questions that I feel might be tough. That is also my opinion and to a seasoned member my questions may be easy. I did not mean to set off any type of attack pheromone with my wording. Again my apologies.

In light of another investigator requesting I post my questions I have decided to do so. Let me also be clear that I wish to learn as well. My questions are true and as I have mentioned before I do not intend to offend anyone. I have attended the church for over a year and although I am not considered a member I am also not some crazy trying to stir the pot or fill my free time. I will begin with the question I deem as the most simple. Any questions I post will have first the question and then the driving feeling behind the question. Thank you all.

1. Question:

Why does the LDS church believe they have the only remaining "priesthood keys” and that they are the only “true church”?

My feelings driving the question:

This has been told to me by many LDS members and also taught in our small groups.

My knee jerk reaction to that statement is that it is incredulous and presumptuous. That would mean that all other churches are void and hold limited or no value. Coincidentally some other religions believe the same thing also. That belief system is confusing and that also means some one is wrong if that statement is true. I also feel that God is not confusing but that man is which is why I am weary of such belief systems.

(1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints")

My belief is that God speaks to everyone differently and each “authority” holds a bit of the truth. (Romans 12: 3-8)

I truly don’t feel that God only speaks to one group and gives complete privilege to one entity. That would contradict allot of the Bibles teachings.

Any ideas? Is my logic wrong or have I been misinformed?

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree with you that God talks to us individually.

Now, the obvious questions are: how does He do that? I suspect that you would answer that He talks to us through the scriptures. You might also believe that He can talk directly to us through some kind of spiritual manifestation.

Mormonism pretty much agrees conceptually with this idea, but with two modifications.

1) We believe that God might add to the corpus of scripture from time to time. If He elects to do so, we believe He will do it through people who have the proper divine authority (or "priesthood").

2) We believe that these spiritual manifestations can be clarified and amplified if one has received the "gift of the Holy Ghost". That gift can only be given through the laying on of hands by a servant of God who has the proper authority. There is biblical precedent for this--see, e.g., Acts 8:9-24 (Simon Magus wanted the authority to give the Holy Ghost--even offered to pay for it--but was refused by Peter).

Mormons would agree with you that there is "a bit of the truth" (indeed, a lot of truth) in various places or denominations. But we would humbly suggest that that isn't quite what God intended.

Our position is that God set up a group of messengers who all had proper priesthood authority, all taught substantially the same gospel, and united their followers into one body of believers, as Paul (among others) exhorted. As those original messengers died (in our opinion, without the Lord designating proper successors for them), doctrinal disputes inevitably arose and that one united body fragmented into dozens, then hundreds, and now thousands of different denominations.

It is certainly radical, and presumptuous, and perhaps arrogant to claim to be the one true Church with all the doctrines and authority that Jesus wants His followers to receive; especially now when ecumenicism seems to be the order of the day. But "one true Church" seems to be what Jesus instructed His disciples to set up in New Testament times; and Mormonism does indeed claim to be a duly authorized modern-day reconstruction of that Church.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[investigator01]

Hello "Just a guy"

Fantastic answer. I agree that Jesus wanted a "true church" especially with all of the Idols and wretched things that were going on at that time. The Bible speaks very clear of that numerous times. I am totally on the same page with you there. My questions and feelings originally arose when it was presented to me that the LDS church was the "only true church". I would have a hard time claiming membership with a group that shared that as a common belief which is why it brought me concern. Something must have not been communicated or perceived correctly when this was being taught to me.

I have 1 small responsive question though. Could you please expand on your quote:

But we would humbly suggest that that isn't quite what God intended.

[skippy740]

I served my mission in Tennessee back over 10 years ago. Tennessee, of course, is smack-dab in the middle of the Bible belt. Teaching about "the only true church upon the face of the whole earth" can sound egotistical and arrogant (if not done with proper context and spirit).

When we taught this as missionaries, this was part of the discussion on the restoration of the church, prophets and apostles, and the restoration of priesthood authority.

What I also had to remind people was that in order for the gospel and church to be restored, we needed a nation of religious freedom (USA) and competing gospel messages. Without this, Joseph Smith would not have asked God for help in choosing a church.

Personally, I think this part was part of God's plan. Martin Luther, with his protesting against the Catholic church, was inspired. And other religious leaders trying to find their way to practice the truth of the gospel as they could.

[Just_A_Guy]

In response to Investigator1:

To elaborate: God intended that, within the church, different people would have different gifts that would contribute to the whole (which I think is where Paul was going with the quote you provide from Romans).

But the Church itself ought to be doctrinally unified under "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". See, e.g., Ephesians 4:1-6, 11-16. Ensuring doctrinal conformity was a major theme in Paul's pastoral epistles.

Jesus' idea was not to go get a little truth from the Pharisees, and a little from the Sadducees, and a little from the Herodians, and a little from the scribes and Essenes. He set up a whole new institution that was intended to take all truth wherever it might have previously been found, and place it under one umbrella.

I do agree with Skippy that a lot of the founders of these other Christian denominations, who protested against improprieties that had crept into the Mother Church, were divinely inspired. But unity--underscored by doctrinal purity--remains the ideal.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

Apostasy and restoration: By Dallin Oaks

The Restoration of all things: By James Faust

The Morning breaks; the shadows flee By Bruce McConkie

[kgrigio]

Investigator, it may sound harsh to say that God has given all authority to one church, because in fact God does love us all, but God is a God of order and if every church had a bit of authority, who would be fully acting under the direction of God?

This is how I like to think of the authority question. I work for a global company. I can not, without the permission of the CEO go out and build a new factory in the name of the company. It isn't going to happen. I don't have the authority. It doesn't mean I don't mean well. It doesn't mean I don't have the money to do so (I really don't, but imagine I did), but without the authority of the CEO I can do nothing in the name of the company. The company must protect its name, it must protect its brand, it must protect its assets and finances and this excludes anyone from acting in the name of the company without express authority given by the company itself.

This is similar to how God acts. Like it or not, he is a God of order and he has established a means for "building his factories" or kingdom if you like. Imagine if anyone could build a factory, or dealer or showroom, etc... and slap the name of my company on it. Where is the credibility, where is the backing of the full faith and integrity of the company, or God in this case.

To me, this is one of the biggest deceptions that Satan whispers in our ear, that God doesn't really care how we get to him, as long as we are doing good. This is false. God has set a clear pattern of what we must do to return to him and that path can only be bound in heaven when it is bound on earth by those God has given the authority to do so. What it comes down to is gaining a testimony of this line of authority. Quite frankly it doesn't matter if you have concerns with this issue or not, if this is how God operates, then that is how he operates and it is you that need to bend your will to his. Only he can tell you and that is why you need to pray and ask about it and then follow through with the promptings you receive.

You may have already asked in prayer on this topic and haven't received an answer yet, but I would encourage you to have faith and put your trust in him. Test the pattern that God has used throughout the scriptures. For those churches that claim authority besides ours, trace that line back to where they believe they first got the authority and ask God if their line of authority is from him. For us, that would be praying about Joseph Smith and asking if he was a prophet and given the authority. In the end, reasoning it out in your head won't work, unless you couple that reasoning with the guidance of the Spirit in a true, honest, sincere desire to find the truth. Good luck.

[LittleWyvern]

I truly don’t feel that God only speaks to one group and gives complete privilege to one entity. That would contradict allot of the Bibles teachings.

Any ideas? Is my logic wrong or have I been misinformed?

Just wanted to add my 2 cents on this one.

Just because we claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ restored upon the earth doesn't mean we make an exclusive claim to the words or privileged of Christ. Even our belief that we are the only church upon the earth today that holds the Priesthood of Jesus Christ doesn't mean we make that claim.

I'll make 2 points. First, our message is to all who will listen. We proclaim the gospel to all who will hear, and all who are willing to meet the requirements God has set for joining His church may enter and partake of all the blessings the church has to offer. So, just because we say only our church has the proper authority to do baptisms, for instance, doesn't mean we hold such baptisms to be only available to an exclusive few. We offer it to everybody.

Second, we don't believe that our church is the sole holder and dispenser of truth. Sure, we have modern-day prophets that give us revelation and this is a source of truth, but we also believe truth can be found beyond the scope of the church, even in other sources. There's a couple of quotes from Joseph Smith that I love:

We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.

One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to recieve truth. Let it come from where it may.

Essentially, Mormonism aims to be a collection of all truth, wherever it comes from. The scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) and words of our modern-day prophets are our main sources of truth, but that doesn't mean truth cannot come from other places.

If our claims are true, it would be an awesome thing, wouldn't it? The original church of Jesus Christ, with all the organization, power, and prophecy that existed when Christ walked the earth, is back on the earth today, guided by Christ Himself and revelation from His prophets. I served a mission just recently (as in, I got home only 3 1/2 months ago) and it's an amazing thing to share. Don't think that we're sharing our religion because we're trying to prove everybody else wrong, we're sharing it because it has made us (yes, even me) so happy that we just can't keep it to ourselves.

[Traveler]

...

1. Question:

Why does the LDS church believe they have the only remaining "priesthood keys” and that they are the only “true church”?

My feelings driving the question:

This has been told to me by many LDS members and also taught in our small groups.

My knee jerk reaction to that statement is that it is incredulous and presumptuous. That would mean that all other churches are void and hold limited or no value. Coincidentally some other religions believe the same thing also. That belief system is confusing and that also means some one is wrong if that statement is true. I also feel that God is not confusing but that man is which is why I am weary of such belief systems.

(1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints")

My belief is that God speaks to everyone differently and each “authority” holds a bit of the truth. (Romans 12: 3-8)

I truly don’t feel that God only speaks to one group and gives complete privilege to one entity. That would contradict allot of the Bibles teachings.

Any ideas? Is my logic wrong or have I been misinformed?

It has always seemed logical that there is really only one true and living G-d who is our Father. It makes no sense to me that the universe was created and given order out of chaos by a committee of even slightly different opinions. In the same sense that there is “one” G-d there can only be one Kingdom of G-d.

One of the first things we learn about man from scripture concerns a fall from that society and kingdom of heaven. To assist man there is a mediator - the Son of the Father. Throughout history there have been many that claimed to be the Son. For example, Baal that we read so much about in the scriptures also claimed to be the Son of G-d.

Making a claim to be called or sent by G-d to speak for him is a very serious claim. I am very sure that G-d would not send competing spokesmen any more that he would accept competing G-ds for his authority. My final point in this discussion is very simple. We all like to call ourselves Christians and disciples of the Christ. We like to believe we would recognize Jesus, “hear” his words and come to him when he calls. But how is it that we would know him? Or know him and our Father as the only true G-d and his Son Jesus Christ? I submit to you, my friend, that if we cannot identify the prophets that are sent by G-d that we will not find it any easier to identify the Son should he come among us as he did 2000 years ago. And if we cannot recognize the prophets or the Son we will not be able to recognize and worship the Father in truth.

I have spent many years searching and I have found nothing better or more valid in a claim to come to man with a message from G-d for these last days. If you find greater prophets that you are willing to declare as I do the Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints then I would be most interested.

The Traveler

Edited September 7, 2011 by Traveler

[Blackmarch]

I have had a rough start getting past the introduction process but that’s ok. (It builds character and foundation). To those in previous posts I ask that we could please clean the slate. I apologize if I came on strong or asked the wrong thing. I simply wanted some help with questions that I feel might be tough. That is also my opinion and to a seasoned member my questions may be easy. I did not mean to set off any type of attack pheromone with my wording. Again my apologies.

In light of another investigator requesting I post my questions I have decided to do so. Let me also be clear that I wish to learn as well. My questions are true and as I have mentioned before I do not intend to offend anyone. I have attended the church for over a year and although I am not considered a member I am also not some crazy trying to stir the pot or fill my free time. I will begin with the question I deem as the most simple. Any questions I post will have first the question and then the driving feeling behind the question. Thank you all.

1. Question:

Why does the LDS church believe they have the only remaining "priesthood keys” and that they are the only “true church”?

My feelings driving the question:

This has been told to me by many LDS members and also taught in our small groups.

My knee jerk reaction to that statement is that it is incredulous and presumptuous. That would mean that all other churches are void and hold limited or no value. Coincidentally some other religions believe the same thing also. That belief system is confusing and that also means some one is wrong if that statement is true. I also feel that God is not confusing but that man is which is why I am weary of such belief systems.

(1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints")

My belief is that God speaks to everyone differently and each “authority” holds a bit of the truth. (Romans 12: 3-8)

I truly don’t feel that God only speaks to one group and gives complete privilege to one entity. That would contradict allot of the Bibles teachings.

Any ideas? Is my logic wrong or have I been misinformed?

1. because Christ personally himself has said so, and had to send Peter James and John to literally give the priesthood and authority to Joseph Smith., apparently christiandom lost it somewhere along the way after the apostles and those they ordained were gone.

Only one can be authorised of God, else confusion will reign in the house of God.

God speaks to many people individually in and outside of church, and may even deign to give inspiration to them concerning others, however at any one time he will only have a singular source be authorized to speak for God available to people.

being spoken to does not equal being given authority to, nor can an individual just take an authority upon themself, nor can that authority be kept if individuals fall into wickedness and do not repent.

[Jason_J]

I think the issue here is simple (at least to me). In New Testament times, Jesus Christ established only one Church (not many with conflicting beliefs). That one Church had apostles, prophets, bishops, deacons, teachers, etc. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be a restoration of that one Church. I don't really see it as arrogant to claim to be the "one true Church". Instead, I see it as a claim consistent with what the Bible teaches, namely, that Christ established one Church.

[investigator01]

WOW! I have got some home work to do. (Lol) Thank you all. This is the type of feed back I am looking for. I think for the most part we are on the same page with how we view this topic. I have a business related obligation that will consume my time for the next few days. I will be pressed for the time it will take to respond to all of your wonderful posts. For now I will offer a few comments to keep the ball rolling. I will check back in a soon as I get a free moment.

I would like to further clarify my feelings on this topic. I do not have any problems with Divine authority nor do I question or deny its meaning or purpose. My feelings are quite the contrary or I would not have the concern I do on this topic. I feel God has given “authority” to a select few of his choosing. There were some in the past and there are some now who hold this privileged position. I believe God has chosen who he deems worthy of holding this position not man. I believe that God also brings great spiritual reward to those who maintain the worthiness and qualifications to continue this awesome position. In contrast God also has a way of “weeding out” those who may have fallen short of his will or those who have used the authority as a tool for their own agendas. Both scenarios I feel are proven time and time again and anyone of the slightest attention to the topic could see this in color.

There are many “denominations” on the earth but all seem to share the common belief that there is a God. What does that say? Well it says more than I could type in one evening. The bottom line is that God has touched them, he has touched you, and he has touched me and so on. That is where there is no confusion because it is God not man at that level. At that level is where our unity as believer’s co exists. Here is where man comes into the picture. Man is inspired and driven by God’s love. Man also feels touched by how God has touched him or her individually. Man therefore is compelled to interpret his or her experience and the feelings regarding the experience. The interpretation may or may not be correct but it will undoubtedly move onto communication to others. Here is where the link can become weak. There is an exercise in Psychology that will prove this point time and time again. If you line up 15 people in a line and tell the first person something like: “tomorrow we will begin work at 10:30 at the water tower” the statement is quietly passed along through all 15 people until the 15th person is reached. I guaranty you by the time it reaches the 15th person they will not repeat the statement as it was originally intended. You could have something like: “We will not work tomorrow because the water tower closes at 10:30” This may or may not be a good example but that is sometimes what happens when man tries to interpret Gods will. That in my opinion is how some things can get so far out of line. They are touched by man which is why Iam always checking that there is water in the pool before swimming. The other half of that is that God is a brilliant being and none of us will know the full truth on this earth. We are limited and covered by a Vail that will only be lifted when he is ready. With all of that said I will always feel strongly that God does not give all or even more to one group, person, entity or organization (as many of you have also agreed). I feel it would be foolish to sustain a belief that God is sectional and not universal which is where my passion arises. I feel God places those deemed worthy in our lives to help clear the fog off of the lens sometimes.

My favorite quote: “Good people do not go to heaven, forgiven people go to Heaven”

I am really tired so hopefully all of this makes sense. Talk to you all soon. God bless.

[LittleWyvern]

Well, reading your post it seems like you already understand the concept pretty well. :)

One thing I would add though, is prayer. We could type posts all day but one of the best ways to know if what we say is true or not is by praying and asking God if what we're saying is true. In other words, don't take our word for it, go to the source of all truth and ask Him. I know that what's been written in this thread is true, but I also know that God will let you know. He doesn't want you to be confused or in the dark, He loves you! So, what I would do is pray and ask for a confirmation. That assurance and knowledge is better than all the world's eloquence and logic.

Although, I think you probably already know that.

[investigator01]

Hello “Little Wyvern” Great comments and feedback I agree 100 percent and feel the same way. Sometimes the most complicated things can be made very easy with the mere approach of simplicity. I love that. Great comments everyone. I have received a lot from this. I am short on time this week so I would like to summarize and soon move on to a new thread and question:

I understand now what some have meant by the “True Church” The Church Christ has intended. It is also now my understanding that the LDS church and most members believe that they are not the “ONLY true church” but that there are also others (denominations or whatever you wish to call them) that hold the same “true Church” standards as Christ had intended. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Vort]

It is also now my understanding that the LDS church and most members believe that they are not the “ONLY true church” but that there are also others (denominations or whatever you wish to call them) that hold the same “true Church” standards as Christ had intended. Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is incorrect. The LDS Church is the only true and living Church on the face of the earth. Other churches may be filled with wonderful, even Godly, people, and may teach many precepts of truth about God and good living. But the authority of the Priesthood to act in God's name and to make covenants with God exist only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It, and it alone, is the kingdom of God on earth at this time.

[skippy740]

To properly clarify: We believe that we are not the only GOOD church in the world. There are many good churches led by godly people who encourage and do good works.

We do believe and assert that we are the only TRUE church upon the face of the whole earth, exactly for the reasons Vort mentioned.

[LittleWyvern]

In other words, a good way to think of "true" in this case is "complete." While we do believe that there are other churches that have truth in them, we also believe that our church is the only church that has the complete set of doctrine, ordinances, and authority that God has so far revealed. We do believe that there will be more truth revealed to the earth as we are ready to receive it, but that truth will be revealed through the channels God has set: i.e. the leaders of the Church. So, you are correct in the sense that other churches do share some of the truths and standards we have, but incorrect in the sense that no other churches have the same power and authority that our church does. Jesus Christ only established one church with all the power and authority, and if there were more than one church of Christ that would only serve to create confusion and division. The LDS church is all about ending those two things.

[Windseeker]

Here is where man comes into the picture. Man is inspired and driven by God’s love. Man also feels touched by how God has touched him or her individually. Man therefore is compelled to interpret his or her experience and the feelings regarding the experience. The interpretation may or may not be correct but it will undoubtedly move onto communication to others. Here is where the link can become weak. There is an exercise in Psychology that will prove this point time and time again. If you line up 15 people in a line and tell the first person something like: “tomorrow we will begin work at 10:30 at the water tower” the statement is quietly passed along through all 15 people until the 15th person is reached. I guaranty you by the time it reaches the 15th person they will not repeat the statement as it was originally intended. You could have something like: “We will not work tomorrow because the water tower closes at 10:30” This may or may not be a good example but that is sometimes what happens when man tries to interpret Gods will. That in my opinion is how some things can get so far out of line. They are touched by man which is why Iam always checking that there is water in the pool before swimming.

Hi Investigator, I had some thoughts as I read about your concerns. I found this and thought it was relevant.

http://mormonhistory.org/content/view/458/110/lang,en/

It is the only religious system that professes to have been established by direct divine authority. All the dissenting church organizations in Christendom may be traced to mere human origin. They are the works of men. It matters not whether their founders were good or bad. God had no direct hand in their establishment, for the men who made them did not believe in present revelation. To their minds Deity was dumb to the world. God had ceased to speak to mortals. Jesus no longer communicated His will. Angels made no more visits to this lower sphere. A radical change had taken place in the dealings with men of Him who is unchangeable. Therefore, the churches which they built up were human, not divine.

Members of the LDS faith believe the same as you do "In contrast God also has a way of “weeding out” those who may have fallen short of his will or those who have used the authority as a tool for their own agendas."

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212–13.)

With all of that said I will always feel strongly that God does not give all or even more to one group, person, entity or organization (as many of you have also agreed). I feel it would be foolish to sustain a belief that God is sectional and not universal which is where my passion arises. I feel God places those deemed worthy in our lives to help clear the fog off of the lens sometimes.

My favorite quote: “Good people do not go to heaven, forgiven people go to Heaven”

I am really tired so hopefully all of this makes sense. Talk to you all soon. God bless.

We believe that it's a pattern well laid out in the bible that revelation comes thru prophets to the people.

Amos 3:7 - Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Each of us are entitled to personal revelation and can be touched and inspired. There are countless examples of such ie. John Milton, Victor Hugo, William Shakespeare, The writers of our Constitution, Christopher Columbus, Newton, C.S. Lewis, Charles Darwin, Confucius,Emerson, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King..etc But while all of these were great men they did not receive the blessings the Lord would have for them as members of his true established church.

In this life they were not given the gift of the Holy Ghost and the promise of constant companionship that you receive as a member of the Lords true church.

I feel I’m given more as a member of his organized Church then others are simply because I’ve placed myself here. It’s like I’ve left the stairs and gotten on the elevator of truth. I’m lead by a Prophet of God and there are Apostles on this earth who give inspired talks and council directly from God. I not only have access to my own revelation and heavenly guidance but also to be directly blessed by revelation on my behalf given to other worthy people such as hometeachers and Bishops, and Elders Quorum presidents. I have opportunities to receive inspiration to serve others. God has placed these people in my life and by being a member of his true church I'm better placed to get the guidance and assistance my family and I need

One of my favorite Quotes –

Ralph Waldo Emerson (May 25, 1803 – April 27, 1882)

“Men have come to speak of the revelation as somewhat long ago given and done, as if God were dead." … "the need was never greater of new revelation than now." … "I look for the hour when the supreme Beauty which ravished the souls of those Eastern men, and chiefly of those Hebrews, and through their lips spoke oracles to all time, shall speak in the West also.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Windseeker

[investigator01]

Thank you all for your posts. It appears that in the end we would agree to disagree on this topic in its general form. At any rate I did not come there to argue but to gain a true perspective of the churches views. This question has been answer for me. Thank you.