National Pride and National Identity

[Jamie123]

There was a post recently in the YouTube forum about a video entitled "I am An American" which has set me thinking. I can't help but envy the Americans their national pride, which we don't seem to have so much in this country (or if we do, it's rarely stated so openly as it is in the US). There are exceptions of course; the Golden Jubilee celebrations in 2002 and the wedding of Prince William earlier this year - but at any other time displaying the Union Jack (OK...Union Flag) marks you out a a "far righter" and gets you nasty letters from the council. Which is sad.

Britain of course was never founded on a "brave principle" like the US. The UK was born in 1707 through a political compromise between the English and Scottish parliaments, which caused more anger at the time than anything else. Likewise the individual nations of the UK were never "founded", but grew slowly from the merging of smaller political units - either by conquest, or for protection against a common enemy (such as the Vikings). The country has periodically tried to "reinvent" itself - to make itself stand for something - but have these efforts ever really had the impact of the US Constitution, or the Declaration of Independence?

Maybe the British are realists and the Americans are starry-eyed romantics. (There was an American kid in my class at school who kept droning on about how great America was, and how Britain was rubbish, and he was a first class bore.) The Declaration of Independence sounds great, until you remember that it was framed by men who thought it was fine to keep Negro slaves in servitude and driving the Native Americans from their lands, while themselves enjoying their "certain unalienable Rights". OK - things have improved since then, but the truth was never so auspicious as the version Uncle Sam relates to Porky Pig. (You know the cartoon I mean.) But nevertheless....it's great that the Americans take pride in who they are, and sad that we don't.

Why does this bother me so much? Well, athouugh I'm ethnically British I wasn't born in the UK. I was born in Singapore where my father was serving with the Royal Air Force, and brought to Britain when I was less than 2 years old. Some ignorant people ask me why I should consider myself British and not Singaporean, which actually makes me very angry. The truth is that I'm more fiercely British precisely because I was not born here. Native Britons have their "Britishness" assured beyond question. They have never had to fight for it like I have (not literally but verbally) against the "you-should-be-Singaporean" brigade*. I have no identity as a Singaporean (I can barely even remember the country) so without my Britishness I would have no national identity at all. I would be a stateless person.

Being British therefore means something to me. When Americans (and other such people) start saying they're "so grateful to be better than everyone else" because (...First Amendment...blahdy blah...) I get hot under the collar, and start looking for counter arguments. (Usually the best I can come up with is that we can buy fireworks and most Americans can't.) But it makes me mader when some of our politicians try to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety" (Ben Franklin was a great guy) or "tolerance" or "diversity" (in their now horribly twisted senses) which puts us precisely in the firing line for this kind of criticism. I feel exactly like John of Gaunt in Shakespeare's Richard II:

England, bound in with the triumphant sea,

Whose rocky shore beats back the envious siege

Of watery Neptune, is now bound in with shame,

With inky blots, and rotten parchment bonds:

That England, that was wont to conquer others,

Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.

But anyway, I'm proud to be British, and I will not accept that America is "the only nation on earth" that has got it right - or is in danger of getting it wrong. I just wish a few more Britons would feel the same way, and try to put things right here instead of running off to America where (supposedly) the money is.

OK - sorry for the long post - rant over for the day!

* Which perhaps gives me some insight on the "Mormons are not Christians" thing that the LDS have to suffer.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Jamie123

[Jenamarie]

Hmm. Interesting post. :)

DH and I watch quiet a few BBC shows, and I know I've picked up on some "UK Pride" in some shows, Top Gear in particular. They LOVE harping on Brittain defeating the Germans in WW2, and I've seen the Union Jack displayed many times on the show. They don't seem to have a very rosey view of America, either. Of course they rail against all the speed cameras, and the ridiculousness that goes on in your parliment, but, to me, it seems to be born from a love of their country and "how great it *could* be" if the people in Pariliment pulled their heads out of their arse. Or at least, that's the vibe I get. :)

And "National Pride" has it's downside as well. There's a big pressure to "prove your patriotism" in some parts of this country. If you don't believe American is THE BEST NATION then there's something wrong with you. (I'm only speaking from my own experience here. Other American's experiences will [likely] vary) For example, the Pledge of Allegience has always given me the squiggies for as long as I can remember. I do NOT like saying it, and usually only stand respectfully when it's being said. Talk about opening yourself up to having people shooting daggers at you through their eyes! My first "allegience" is to my God and to my Family, as those are the things in life that are Eternal. Any country that will allow me the freedom to peacefully enjoy those two things is a country where I feel I could carve out a happy life. Yes, "I am an American", but I was a Child of God for long long LONG before that, and so were the members of every other country on this earth. :)

[dash77]

In my mind, creating a contry based on compromise it heroic and a much better choice that a bloody war. I am originally from Canada and I often compare the compromise and negiotation method (Canada) to the one of war (United States). Today, both countries are indepedent nations, one through compromise and negiotation, the other through an almost radical and unwillingness to negiotate. War can be viewed as brave, but having the ability to compromise to prevent war is probable more brave. There have been historians that have underscored that the war of indepedence and the American civil war could have been sidestepped with fruitful results -- such as what Canada did.

[Bini]

I come from a family of Brits. Most of them remain in the UK but one of my cousins now lives here in Utah. Only, I think he still believes he's back in the UK because everything he does revolves around being English. Haha. He's got the flag posted outside his home and his favourite attire is his Liverpool football jersies (that nobody gets around these here parts.. Lol).

[Jamie123]

And "National Pride" has it's downside as well. There's a big pressure to "prove your patriotism" in some parts of this country. If you don't believe American is THE BEST NATION then there's something wrong with you.

Having thought it over a bit more, I wonder if "America is the Best Nation" isn't really akin to "My Mother is the Best Mother". We say it to uplift our own mothers, not to put other people's mothers down. The fault comes not in saying it but in expecting everyone else to believe it.

[RescueMom]

All-Consuming Patriotism

Love of country is surely a strength, but carried to excess it can become the cause of spiritual downfall. There are some citizens whose patriotism is so intense and so all-consuming that it seems to override every other responsibility, including family and Church. I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict. Their excessive zeal for one aspect of patriotism is causing them to risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the Church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our 12th article of faith [A of F 1:12] makes all of us subject.

http://http://lds.org/liahona/1995/05/our-strengths-can-become-our-downfall?lang=eng&query=tolerance

[RMGuy]

Served in England. Given the choice between there and here (the US) I would pick there everytime. Why?

Better Humor

Better Chocolate

Better Scenery

My rule, be proud of where you are and who you are.

-RM

[Madriglace]

My national identity is deeply engrained .. I have yet to find a family line that came through Ellis Island ... my ancestors have been here (US) since the beginning and have served in every war the US has been involved in and I am so proud of my heritage.

How ever if you look at our history from a gospel perspective ... things here had to be set in order and conditions in place for the restoration of the gospel ... we did not have time to sit and talk ... and compromises had to be made. We declared our independence in 1776, the constitution was signed in 1787, Joseph Smith was born in 1805 and the gospel was restored in 1830. The founding fathers left slavery alone because of the urgency they felt to get the constitution signed to preserve the union that they had fought so hard to form. They knew that the slavery issue would come up again. The Lord uses the conditions at hand to accomplish His work.

As much as I love traveling, and have had the priviledge of seeing some truly wonderful parts of this world (even if the Canadian border people hate me) ...for me the US is the only game in town.

[Dravin]

Served in England. Given the choice between there and here (the US) I would pick there everytime. Why?

Better Humor

Better Chocolate

Better Scenery

My rule, be proud of where you are and who you are.

-RM

Fish and chips, I'd trade every McDonald's in the US for some decent chippers.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Dravin

[Bini]

I think both sentiments can be used to express appreciation of what you have or to express the idea that what you have is better than anyone else. Though I suppose the mother thing requires a bit more effort for the latter, everyone is expected to think their Mom is the best. But if something like this happened:

Person A: My mom got me cheese cake and a clown for my birthday party. Your mom only got you a made at home Duncan Hines piece of crap.

Then the parallel shines through a bit more.

Fish and Chips my man, I'd trade every McDonald's in the US for some decent chippers.

Too bad they don't serve 'em up in newspaper anymore..

[RMGuy]

Fish and chips, I'd trade every McDonald's in the US for some decent chippers.

with Ribena to drink and a Mars bar for afters.........

I'm homesick now

-RM

[Just_A_Guy]

Reminds me of an anecdote in this month's Reader's Digest. Something to the effect of an American military officer telling a British friend about certain American military traditions, and the Brit replies:

"My boy, Americans don't have traditions. They have habits."

[Dravin]

with Ribena to drink and a Mars bar for afters.........

I'm homesick now

-RM

I never had Ribena, but then my chipper experience was in Dublin (my understanding is that the fish and chips are analogous though). Though it's possible it was available and I just didn't notice it.

[RMGuy]

I never had Ribena, but then my chipper experience was in Dublin (my understanding is that the fish and chips are analogous though). Though it's possible it was available and I just didn't notice it.

Tell me you had a Mars bar though? Please tell me you didn't miss out on that? I had a companion that used to say that if they didn't have Mars bars in the CK then he wasn't going...lol!

-RM

[Dravin]

Tell me you had a Mars bar though? Please tell me you didn't miss out on that? I had a companion that used to say that if they didn't have Mars bars in the CK then he wasn't going...lol!

-RM

No I didn't. I was only in Dublin a few days and other sweet things caught my attention like Aero bars (which I remembered from Canada), good shortbread, Butler Chocolates, Twix Fino, and some lemon wafer cookies from some Slavic shop.

[Jamie123]

Too bad they don't serve 'em up in newspaper anymore..

Jean and I went to visit Boughton-on-the-Water last month (where part of my mother's family comes from). It's a wonderful place - stone cottages built along the Windrush River - which is shallow enough to paddle in, and has lots of pretty stone footbridges over it. We got fish and chips and sat under a tree to eat it.

If the Mormons' Celestial Kingdom has anything to compare with that, it must be worth the sacrifice!

They do still sell fish and chips in paper - just not in actual newspaper with newsprint on it (which someone at some point seems to have decided was poisonous - though I don't remember hearing of anyone dying of it). But I agree Bini - fish and chips tastes FAR better out of paper than off a plate!

Edited September 16, 2011 by Jamie123

[Dravin]

Jean and I went to visit Boughton-on-the-Water last month (where part of my mother's family comes from). It's a wonderful place - stone cottages built along the Windrush River - which is shallow enough to paddle in, and has lots of pretty stone footbridges over it. We got fish and chips and sat under a tree to eat it.

Sounds like a nicer spot than a bench on the boardwalk running alongside the river Lifey in the middle of Dublin (which is not a pretty sight at that point being channelized and dirty). Makes me wish I could have got out of the city more so things like you describe above could have been an option.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Dravin

[Saldrin]

hope this gets a chuckle.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

Winston Churchill

[RMGuy]

hope this gets a chuckle.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

Winston Churchill

“I am prepared to meet my maker. Whether my maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.”

― Winston Churchill

I love Churchill quotes.

-RM

[Just_A_Guy]

"Winston, you're drunk."

"Nancy, you're ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning."

[Vort]

"Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."

(Yes, I realize the exchange probably never occurred, but it's too good to pass up.)