Who is Jesus?

[Soninme]

If you believe you cannot be eternal if you have a beginning. then man cannot be eternal.

Please show me where I said this.

The from and for are synonomous when it comes to eternal in your view, right?

No.

Only God is "from" eternity, meaning He and only He DID NOT have a beginning. There never was a time when He was not.

I had a beginning, there was a time when I was not, but now that I have been created I will not have an end. That is the "to" eternity. If I was to draw a line starting here to eternity the line would have no end but it did start right here did it not?

You may need to explain to me then how we can be eternal and have a beginning, because I don't understand your logic.

Gen.1:26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

We were "made/created"(had a starting point before which we did not exist) in the image of God. God is spirit. We are made a spirit/being and as such we will exist to all eternity.

I don't know how to make it any more clear.

[Justice]

Please show me where I said this.

You said it here:

If something or someone is created then it/they "CANNOT" be eternal because they in fact had a beginning.

Man had a beginning (you re-stated it in your previous post), so therefore man cannot be eternal.

So, according to your view, man had a beginning but is eternal. You say "to eternity" now, as a clarification, but still eternal. If something is eternal it is eternal (speaking of when it "becomes" eternal). Since we now exist, and will never die, we are eternal, right?

You say God is eternal and that means He could not have been created, yet you say man was created and will be eternal. This is the heart of my question and quandry with your comment. Are you saying your statment only applies to us and not God? How do you reconcile this?

I believe there are more ways to understand "from everlasting to everlasting," and your understanding causes you to believe that something that is created cannot be eternal (the case of man contradicts your belief). I believe eternity is made up of eternal rounds, and once something exists in eternity, it is eternal. So, something can be "created" in one eternity and be "eternal" in all succeeding eternities. That makes both God and man eternal, as the Bible teaches, yet God will always be greater than man because God is the cause of man becoming eternal, or simply even "becoming" at all.

[Soninme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soninme

Please show me where I said this.

You said it here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soninme

If something or someone is created then it/they "CANNOT" be eternal because they in fact had a beginning.

Now Justice, why would you say I said something I didn't and quote only part of what I said when in your own post #66 you yourself quoted my exact words that clarified my statement?

This is what I said;

Originally Posted by Soninme

If something or someone is created then it/they "CANNOT" be eternal because they in fact had a beginning. So no, God can't create a being equal to Himself. That creation wouldn't/couldn't be eternal. (From eternity)

Note I finished with (From eternity).

If a being has a starting point or is created, then unless you use new math, that being cannot exist from eternity past, or "always existed". "Created/made" and "always existed" are opposites.

Man had a beginning (you re-stated it in your previous post), so therefore man cannot be eternal.

So, according to your view, man had a beginning but is eternal. You say "to eternity" now, as a clarification, but still eternal. If something is eternal it is eternal (speaking of when it "becomes" eternal).

Okay, if something becomes then there has to be a time when it was not, correct?

Since we now exist, and will never die, we are eternal, right?

Yes, we were created or became, if you will, (Gen. 1:26) and now we will exist to eternity.

You say God is eternal and that means He could not have been created, yet you say man was created and will be eternal. This is the heart of my question and quandry with your comment.

I guess I should have been more clear and said only God is from eternity but He has made mankind to exist to eternity.

I believe there are more ways to understand "from everlasting to everlasting,"

Okay.

I believe eternity is made up of eternal rounds, and once something exists in eternity, it is eternal. So, something can be "created" in one eternity and be "eternal" in all succeeding eternities.

Yes, if by "succeeding eternities" you mean to the eternities, because if it's "created" then it cannot have existed from eternity. Edited October 10, 2011 by Soninme

[Justice]

What exactly do you believe eternal life is?

[Soninme]

I believe eternal life is taught as obviously quantitative in that it lasts forever and ever, yet also qualitative or a quality of life.

As I said before humankind was created in the image of God. God is spirit. (John 4:24)

We are created spirits and as such we will exist to eternity. We are also given a physical body that will some day die but our spirit will continue forever either in the presence of God or not. (Matt. 25:46) (Rev.20:10)

Thanks

[Blackmarch]

sorry missed your response,

I'm afraid that I don't follow. Jesus is the Anglicised version of the Latin Iesus, taken from the Greek for Yeshua.

Yes, but thats not what people are generally aware of, and through tradition and time the name Jesus has become the name which we use to identify The Son of God, as well as the name that holds meaning in our hearts, rather than a more direct translation/crossover.

Elohim, OTOH, is transliterated Hebrew appearing instead of the more usual English equivalent "god."

You can scour the OT in vain for the royal pronoun. Pluraity was however used as a superlative, such as behemoth.

I'm pretty sure the the usage of the Word Elohim as a name-title for God the Father was introduced early on into the LDS community either by JS or one of the early leaders

as for the word itself its constructed like a plural, and i've heard that there are times its used as a plural, except when dealing with God himself its generally grammatically used as a singular. I understand that there is some debate on this over some of the technicalities or particulars.

[SteveVH]

No, you believe there is One God with 3 beings in one. That's much more confusing to me.

I was just reading through this thread and saw your comment. In order to have this discussion it would seem that you should understand what Trinitarians actually believe. What you have stated is not Trinitarian belief. We do not believe there is "One God with 3 beings in one". We believe in three persons in one being. The difference is this: We believe that God, in his essence, has a divine nature, rather than a human nature or an angelic nature. The three persons of the Trinity are all "divine" persons, from eternity. They did not acquire divinity; it is "what" they are, from eternity, no beginning and no end. We are called to "share" in God's divinity, not through an exercise of progression, but by a lifting up of our human nature through the gift of God. Our human bodies will become glorified human bodies through God's ability to change us. Jesus Christ assumed human flesh and became one of us, but he was first a divine being, and, while becoming human, remained 100% divine. So Christ had two natures in one person; fully human and fully divine. He was not half divine and half human.

From what I understand, the Mormon faith does not distinguish between the nature of God and the nature of man (between divine and human) which is where I think a lot of confusion comes when trying to understand the Trinity as consisting of one divine being. I have given this analogy before but will repeat it. It is much like the substance of water. Water can take the form of a liquid, a solid or a gas; completely distinct charactaristics, yet they all remain one substance; H2O. Ice is not rock just because it may share a charataristic of rock (hardness). The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all divine persons, distinct from one another in relationship (notice the terms are terms of relationship) yet one in their being or substance (divinity). It is why Jesus is referred to as the only Son of God. We become sons and daughters of God through adoption, as the Scriptures teach us. I will never be a son of God as Jesus is the Son of God. Even so, we will share in Christ's inheritance through nothing but the love and goodness of God.

Hope that helps a little.

Edited October 10, 2011 by StephenVH

[MrShorty]

Confusion comes from equating "Being" and "Persons". It has been said God is "one What" and "three Whos"

"Being" would be the "what" (God) and "Persons" would be the "who"( Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Hope that helps.

I find a lot of difficulty trying to use finite, human language to describe something as infinite, something so far removed from anything I can experience in mortality, so I'm still not sure I understand how you are describing it. On the one hand, since I have used the terms as equivalents, it can be difficult for me to see the difference between "being" and "person."

Even though it might be an imperfect analogy, the concept I get from your description is something like a team -- one team composed of three players. I know I'm trying to use a finite, human concept to describe something infinite and eternal, so it isn't going to be perfect, but this idea does make sense to me. However, I can certainly see where this picture leaves itself open to be interpreted as polytheistic.

[Soninme]

MrShorty

I find a lot of difficulty trying to use finite, human language to describe something as infinite, something so far removed from anything I can experience in mortality

You and me both, but I hope we keep trying :)

On the one hand, since I have used the terms as equivalents, it can be difficult for me to see the difference between "being" and "person."

Yes, we do use those terms as equivalents but to be accurate we probably shouldn't. Allow me to muddy the water some more.

Definition of Being 1 a: the quality or state of having existence b (1): something conceivable as existing (2): something that actually exists (3): the totality of existing things.

So a bear and fish are beings, that would be what they are but we wouldn't properly say bears and fish are persons.

I believe within the one being of God there are three eternally distinct Persons because the Bible says there is only one God yet the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

No biblical writer uses the phrase 3 Gods.

Thanks

[Seminarysnoozer]

From what I understand, the Mormon faith does not distinguish between the nature of God and the nature of man (between divine and human) which is where I think a lot of confusion comes when trying to understand the Trinity as consisting of one divine being.

Hope that helps a little.

This is what you have wrong. I think we distinguish it better than most. We believe in the dual nature of man in this world, being both spirit and body. "The nature of man" is what is contributed to our current situation by the carnal body. What I think you fail to see is that when we die we keep living as a spirit. If the spirit lives on and the body dies, where did that spirit come from? That divine nature of our own spirit, you have failed to distinguish very well. You have to separate those two things to really make the statement you were trying to make. You were trying to say that the Mormon faith (better known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) does not distinguish between the nature of our spirit from the nature of God's spirit, that both spirits are the same species. ... not the nature of "man", the half spirit, half carnal corrupted body man.

We probably believe the same things as far as the "nature of man" but realize that is not who we really are, this is a temporary state, where we are both man and spirit together. In other words that is only half our nature and not the part that will live on past death. We will never be "man" again after this life. Do you believe the nature of your spirit is the same nature as your carnal self here? I think you might have to without realizing we are first children of God.

[Justice]

Thank you for trying to explain your belief. Dozens have tried, and used similar wording as you, but I don't understand. But, that's OK. You are free to belief God's make-up is whatever you want.

However, you touched on something that I can talk about. Something I believe must be a natural flowing truth if you believe in the Trinity.

We are called to "share" in God's divinity, not through an exercise of progression, but by a lifting up of our human nature through the gift of God.

Here's my concern with the Trinity belief. It's not that you believe what you do about God, because the words of the Bible can be interpreted different ways. But, these words say things about God that I don't believe, nor do I believe can be true.

Let's assume your belief about God being a Trinity is correct, and everything that goes along with it. We then are created beings, not children (offspring), not in any way equal to God, even if created in His image, and never having potential to be like Him. We are created from dust and became living when He breathed His Spirit in us.

So, God, in His infinite wisdom, knew what He was creating when He created each of us. He knew before He created each man, woman and child what we would be, because He in fact decided what each would be.

He created some men and women to suffer for an eternity. He knew if He created certain people certain ways they would be that way and have those given qualities. We are not accountable for being made the way we are. Adam and Eve were created knowing they would fall. Why punish them for doing what they were created for doing? Why punish or reward any of us because we are simply acting out life as the being God made us. All of our choices were pre-known and programmed in.

Our human bodies will become glorified human bodies through God's ability to change us.

Why did God make us sinful then change us? Why not just make us the way He wanted us?

And, the bigger question, why doesn't He change all men? Why must some suffer for eternity since they are simply the people they were made to be, and God refused to change them? Why are some given the privelidge of being able to worship Him for eternity based on what God made them and decided for them (since man has no say in his own salvation).

[Justice]

I posted this separate because I didn't want it to interfere with the other questions:

It is much like the substance of water.

A quick question about this, "the substance" of water (H2O) can only be gas, solid, or liquid, not all three at the same time. Is this how God is? Or, can He be all three at the same time?

[SteveVH]

I posted this separate because I didn't want it to interfere with the other questions:

A quick question about this, "the substance" of water (H2O) can only be gas, solid, or liquid, not all three at the same time. Is this how God is? Or, can He be all three at the same time?

The point is exactly that they (liquid, solid and gas) are distinct from each other yet they are all the same thing; water. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from each other in terms of relationship; the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Father, nor the Holy Spirit the Son or the Father. Yet they are all one God because they are of the only, one, divine substance. We are not of the divine substance. We are human. Angels are pure spirit. We are fundamentally different because we are created. God is not created but is, rather, the Creator. There is only one eternal, uncreated God who is the Creator, everything else, including us is created.

Now, please keep in mind that we are using human languange and the human mind which is finite and are trying to describe the infinite God. No analogy we use is going to be perfect. In fact anything we say can only diminish who God really is. The point is that God is infinitely above us in every way, including his very nature.

[Vort]

The point is that God is infinitely above us in every way, including his very nature.

Then why worry about trying to describe his nature? If he is infinitely above us and ineffable, the LDS explanation must be exactly as correct as the Roman Catholic explanation.

[mikbone]

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

I hope the above will clarify this thread

[SteveVH]

Thank you for trying to explain your belief. Dozens have tried, and used similar wording as you, but I don't understand. But, that's OK. You are free to belief God's make-up is whatever you want.

Thank you.

However, you touched on something that I can talk about. Something I believe must be a natural flowing truth if you believe in the Trinity.

Here's my concern with the Trinity belief. It's not that you believe what you do about God, because the words of the Bible can be interpreted different ways. But, these words say things about God that I don't believe, nor do I believe can be true.

Let's assume your belief about God being a Trinity is correct, and everything that goes along with it. We then are created beings, not children (offspring), not in any way equal to God, even if created in His image, and never having potential to be like Him. We are created from dust and became living when He breathed His Spirit in us.

So, God, in His infinite wisdom, knew what He was creating when He created each of us. He knew before He created each man, woman and child what we would be, because He in fact decided what each would be.

I'm not really sure what the question has to do with the Trinity. It looks like we're back to the pre-mortal existence topic in which you believe that you chose to come to earth and acquire a mortal body in order to go through trials and tribulations which are necesary in order for us to progress to godhood. In other words, we chose to be what we are and God did not and is therefore not responsible for our behavior. This is opposed to the Christian belief that we were created by God at conception, with free will, and that is us who freely choose to either obey or disobey God. And so you are going to make the argument that God is therefore responsible for everything we do, including sin, and everything we will suffer, as if we had no choice in the matter; after all we cannot help who we are; we were created this way. I will try and answer this below.

He created some men and women to suffer for an eternity.

We have to stop right here. No, God did not create some men and women to suffer for an eternity. He created all men and women out of love for us, so that we might in turn love him and live with him in complete happiness for eternity. The Scriptures tell us that God desires that none be lost. He certainly did not create us for the purpose of suffering for eternity. He created us for the purpose of loving and being loved for eternity. Suffering for eternity is our choice, not God's.

He knew if He created certain people certain ways they would be that way and have those given qualities.

He created all men and women with the gift of free will. That is a good part of us being created in his image and likeness. We have free agency and the ability to choose to either love God or not love God; to live in relationship with God or to live apart from God. None of us are created with a nature that prevents us from choosing to love God. It would be an unjust God, indeed, who would create a flawed being without the ability to choose love and then punish that being for acting accordingly. It would be like punishing a dog for having four legs and a tail. The gifts of free will and intellect insure that this is not the case. We choose our own destiny.

We are not accountable for being made the way we are. Adam and Eve were created knowing they would fall. Why punish them for doing what they were created for doing? Why punish or reward any of us because we are simply acting out life as the being God made us. All of our choices were pre-known and programmed in.

Because they were not created to fall. They were created to love God. It was they who chose instead to disobey God and suffer the consequences of a life lived apart from God. God even warned them of those consequences. Yet, even in our sin, God chose to save us. That cannot be left out of the equation. We are not pre-programmed robots with no choice in the matter. It is all our choice, even today. We can choose to be in relationship with God or not. If we choose not to be in relationship with God we will suffer the consequences of that choice. We will live without God and that is called hell. It is not a punishment of God. It is getting exactly what we chose with our own free will.

Why did God make us sinful then change us? Why not just make us the way He wanted us?

God did make us exactly the way he wanted us. He did not make us sinful. God made us without any stain of sin whatsoever. But he made us with free will so that we may choose to love him. Within that choice is the option of choosing otherwise, which is exactly what Adam and Eve did and exactly what each of us do every time we sin.

And, the bigger question, why doesn't He change all men? Why must some suffer for eternity since they are simply the people they were made to be, and God refused to change them? Why are some given the privelidge of being able to worship Him for eternity based on what God made them and decided for them (since man has no say in his own salvation).

Again, you are assuming that we have no choice in the matter. When it comes time for judgment day what should we say: "You made me this way. It's your fault I did the things I did"? No. Every sin I have committed I have chosen to commit, otherwise it is not sin. And man very much has a say in his salvation. We can choose to accept the redeeming grace of God or not. God could not be more merciful. It is always up to us to choose the gift, however.

Bottom line is that we were created as free beings, not pre-programmed robots with no say in our eternal destiny. I can finally see, however, where many of your beliefs originate and it is with the believe in a pre-mortal existence. It is why you believe that the disobedience of Adam and Eve was a good and necessary thing and that none of you will suffer the pains of hell because you already made your choice before you were born. The worst you have to fear is a lower level of heaven. It is all really starting to fall into place and I thank all of you who have shared your beliefs with me. They make absolutely no sense with out understanding this fundamental belief from which most others originate.

Edited October 10, 2011 by StephenVH

[SteveVH]

Then why worry about trying to describe his nature? If he is infinitely above us and ineffable, the LDS explanation must be exactly as correct as the Roman Catholic explanation.

Why do we try and describe heaven when God has told us that "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart conceived of what God has planned for those who love him."? What we know has been revealed by God himself. We will spend the rest of our lives uncovering the depth of this revelation, until we see God "face to face".

There is a great danger in making God in our own image and likeness and then believing that we can grasp him.

[SteveVH]

This is what you have wrong. I think we distinguish it better than most. We believe in the dual nature of man in this world, being both spirit and body.

So do I, although it is not a dual nature, it is "human" nature. Human nature consists of body, soul and spirit. I suppose we would have to define each of those in order to understand each other properly, but I am very aware that we are much more than lumps of flesh walking around on a planet.

"The nature of man" is what is contributed to our current situation by the carnal body. What I think you fail to see is that when we die we keep living as a spirit.

I don't fail to see that at all. But what I think you are doing is equating "spirit" with "divinity". The angels are pure spirit, but they are not divine. Only God is divine. This is the distinction that is all important to understand. There are different levels of "spirit". All "spirits" apart from God, are created spirits. God is the uncreated, pure Spirit.

If the spirit lives on and the body dies, where did that spirit come from? That divine nature of our own spirit, you have failed to distinguish very well. You have to separate those two things to really make the statement you were trying to make. You were trying to say that the Mormon faith (better known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) does not distinguish between the nature of our spirit from the nature of God's spirit, that both spirits are the same species. ... not the nature of "man", the half spirit, half carnal corrupted body man.

We probably believe the same things as far as the "nature of man" but realize that is not who we really are, this is a temporary state, where we are both man and spirit together. In other words that is only half our nature and not the part that will live on past death. We will never be "man" again after this life. Do you believe the nature of your spirit is the same nature as your carnal self here? I think you might have to without realizing we are first children of God.

To be human means to be flesh and spirit. Our bodies are not just a shell in which our spirits live. Our bodies are very much a part of what it means to be human. That is why we will be joined again with our bodies. Our bodies will be glorified, but we do not receive "another" body. Our bodies will be, instead, tranformed and gifted with divine nature at the resurrection. They will no longer be subject to corruption, nor subject to the physical laws of nature. Our humanity will be lifted up and transformed. We will receive a "super-nature" (above nature) and become supernatural human beings.

[Justice]

The angels are pure spirit, but they are not divine. Only God is divine. This is the distinction that is all important to understand. There are different levels of "spirit". All "spirits" apart from God, are created spirits. God is the uncreated, pure Spirit.

Where do you get this?

And, the "only God is divine" part, I'll get to later.

[jdf135]

Elohim is the plural of "elohah" divine being or divinity. It can be used as gods or as the title of a certain divinity, so a good way to tell is to check the verb. In Genesis 1:1 it is singular. Bara, not bareu.

help me out here. the hebrew transliteration I have from the LDS electronic scriptures does not refer to the hebrew word bara

[volgadon]

help me out here. the hebrew transliteration I have from the LDS electronic scriptures does not refer to the hebrew word bara

?????

Bereshith bara Elohim eth has-hamayim wa-eth ha-aretz.

א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ. 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Listen to the second word.

[SteveVH]

Where do you get this?

And, the "only God is divine" part, I'll get to later.

I get this from the teaching of my Church, based upon Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I'll be happy to reserach this further, if you wish, but one Scriptural reference is this:

“For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.” —Ephesians 6:12

here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about the issue:

"328

The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels" is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.

Who are they?

329

St. Augustine says: "'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is ‘spirit'; if you seek the name of their office, it is ‘angel': from what they are, ‘spirit,' from what they do, ‘angel.'"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" they are the "mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word."189

330

As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190

Christ "with all his angels"

331

Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . ."191 They belong to him because they were created through and for him: "for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."192 They belong to him still more because he has made them messengers of his saving plan: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"193"

I'm happy to discuss this further, but I think it may be drawing us away from the topic of this thread. My reference to angels was in the context of who Jesus is, in the Trinitarian tradition and the difference between the nature of God (divine) and all things created by God, including both humans and angels. Creation will share in God's divinity, which is His nature, not ours. The point being that "spirit" does not translate into "divinity". There are no "spirits" who are divine in and of themselves, save the Holy Spirit.

Edited October 11, 2011 by StephenVH

[Soninme]

Originally Posted by Justice

I believe there are more ways to understand "from everlasting to everlasting,"

How is this understood in the LDS view?

[Seminarysnoozer]

So do I, although it is not a dual nature, it is "human" nature. Human nature consists of body, soul and spirit. I suppose we would have to define each of those in order to understand each other properly, but I am very aware that we are much more than lumps of flesh walking around on a planet.

I don't fail to see that at all. But what I think you are doing is equating "spirit" with "divinity". The angels are pure spirit, but they are not divine. Only God is divine. This is the distinction that is all important to understand. There are different levels of "spirit". All "spirits" apart from God, are created spirits. God is the uncreated, pure Spirit.

To be human means to be flesh and spirit. Our bodies are not just a shell in which our spirits live. Our bodies are very much a part of what it means to be human. That is why we will be joined again with our bodies. Our bodies will be glorified, but we do not receive "another" body. Our bodies will be, instead, tranformed and gifted with divine nature at the resurrection. They will no longer be subject to corruption, nor subject to the physical laws of nature. Our humanity will be lifted up and transformed. We will receive a "super-nature" (above nature) and become supernatural human beings.

In that joining though, we will no longer be "man" or "human".

Before you were saying that LDS believe that "man" and God are both divine. I am clarifying that we don't believe that. We do not believe that "man" is divine even though the spirit of man could be. We believe the spirit of man, which is who we really are, is the same species as God.

If you believe we will be transformed, then transformed to what? "Supernatural human beings"? What does that mean? Then you are no longer taking about "man". You are taking about us in our non-man state. I think if you are going to disagree with that view then you are obligated to define what is meant by "supernatural human beings" and where you get that view. What if, "supernatural human beings" is the same as being divine? .... then you would agree with our view, just that you are using a different term.

It seems, though, that you would agree with the idea that being human or being "man" is just a temporary state and not our real selves. This life is an temporary, fallen, corrupted state from our real selves, our spirit self.

[Spartan117]

Why do we try and describe heaven when God has told us that "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart conceived of what God has planned for those who love him."? What we know has been revealed by God himself. We will spend the rest of our lives uncovering the depth of this revelation, until we see God "face to face".

Revelation 19:11 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Ezekiel 1:1 - In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

Acts 10:11 - And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth

Revelation 4:1 - After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Acts 7:56 - And said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"