"God once was..."

[mikbone]

We cannot keep all. God the Father expect/demands perfection. We cannot be perfect therefore it is ONLY though Christ life, death and resurrection-that is what it takes to make it to God. Thank the Lord!

Your right. In this life we cannot approach perfection.

But then again the lord said:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And

3 Nephi 12: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

It is probable that the Lord was not just talking about this life, but that he expects us to eventually become perfect. Let us assume that a person makes it to the Celestial Kingdom. Then though continued learning and obedience say perhaps in a millennia or billions of years that that son of God eventually becomes perfect.

Could that son then be considered as a possible candidate for further experience and and stewardship?

I believe so.

[DonQuijote]

God is an unchanging being in the sense that he will never "change his mind" or modify His word. He preaches the same gospel with the same ordinances & laws to every dispensation. The amount of how much of the gospel we are taught depends on the people and how much they are ready to obey.

For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round. DC 3:2

But both Heavenly Father & His Son do still continue to progress & increase in glory.

To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said. TPJS p.347

And no matter what anyone may say today, Joseph Smith very plainly taught that God was once a man like ourselves!

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power— to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me. Joseph Smith, King Follet Discourse April 7, 1844

Edited October 17, 2011 by DonQuijote
Added reference to last quote

[annewandering]

"Be ye there for perfect."

It just occurred to me, slow that I am, that we can become perfect just as God has commanded us to do. We follow the commandments, repent when needed and rely upon the atonement of Christ. With the Atonement we do become perfect. Is this not true? Yes it is. We do not become perfect alone. It is only through the Atonement that we can become perfect.

[Maureen]

You seem to be stumbling on the answer that Christ gave, or perhaps interpreting it to fit your beliefs. Look closely at Christ's response:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

First, Christ comments of the fact that this man called Him "good," which I'm sure has a meaning beyond what it's been translated to. I know many good people. It may be more related to perfect, complete, or some other high condition. It's interesting that Christ is referring that "God" or the Father is "good," not even Himself. This is a subtle stab at the Trinity in my view. In other scripture Christ says the Father is greater than He, again delivering the same message Luke 18.

And you may be interpreting this to fit your view. Jesus asks the man why he calls him good, mentioning that only God is good. Jesus does not say to the man he is wrong, that he is not God. He only asks him why he calls Jesus good. He is asking him to see if he recognizes Jesus as God. There is other scripture that shows Jesus as pronouncing himself God, specifically when he refers to himself as "I AM".

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” (John 8:58)

M.

[Justice]

Personally, I think this possibility simply strengthens the statement that He is "the same yesterday, today and forever"- that Creation and the role of the Savior is perpetuated cyclically throughout eternity.

My belief has always been that it doesn't matter if the Father was once the Savior of His eternity, or least among those who inherited eternal life. It really doesan't matter, and I'm being as solemn as I can when I state that.

As you have alluded to, I believe Christ is more than just a Person, but a role and idea. Heavenly Parents cannot use any other method to exalt their children, because it cannot be done another way. I believe Jesus CHrist, born on this earth, is the Savior over all He created in this eternity. It is impossible that He is the Savior of prior eternities.

Remember that the Savior was chosen either at or before the Grand Council to be the Redeemer of all Father's children born in this eternity. So, that means there was a time when He was not chosen, or He existed for a time before He was chosen. This is strong evidence, again, for the fact that the Savior is literal offspring of the Father, not just physically, but spiritually as well.

The problem we have is understadning eternity, and eternities, and eternal rounds... how they are made up and when one begins and ends. After over 30 years of studying and pondering over this topic, my limited understanding tells me that eternity is broken up into eternal rounds, or geenrations. That explains a lot of wording in scripture, and explains how one who is created can dwell in eterniy and be eternal in all subsequent eternities.

[Justice]

And you may be interpreting this to fit your view. Jesus asks the man why he calls him good, mentioning that only God is good. Jesus does not say to the man he is wrong, that he is not God. He only asks him why he calls Jesus good. He is asking him to see if he recognizes Jesus as God. There is other scripture that shows Jesus as pronouncing himself God, specifically when he refers to himself as "I AM".

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” (John 8:58)

I don't dispute any of this. Jesus is the "I AM" or "Jehovah" of the Old Testament.

It's that Jesus tells the man he must "do" something that I was trying to point out.

[Justice]

We cannot keep all. God the Father expect/demands perfection. We cannot be perfect therefore it is ONLY though Christ life, death and resurrection-that is what it takes to make it to God. Thank the Lord!

Just because we cannot keep all does not somehow annul the commandment to do so.

Because of the Atonement we can repent and change. Through repentance we can become more and more like Jesus Christ. We can follow Him more closely.

I do not suggest it is possible to be resurrected or exalted without Christ. What I do suggest is that Christ is the judge, and He has given us the criteria He will use to judge us by...

... our works.

[Snow]

2. In making it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom one inherits all that the Father has. What does that mean? One inherits all that the Father has? Do we really believe that or not? If one believes that we really have the opportunity to inherit all that the Father has then what of the Father's possessions including knowledge, history, achievements, glory, eternal nature, etc. do we not inherit? If we say there is a limitation in what we inherit then we do not inherit all that the Father has.

I suspect that you don't really believe that. For example, do you believe that you will inherit God's fatherhood? That you will become the father of Christ?

[mikbone]

I suspect that you don't really believe that. For example, do you believe that you will inherit God's fatherhood? That you will become the father of Christ?

In a sense yes.

We can't become the father of Jesus Christ. But consider this...

I am sure that Abraham is going to be a member of the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 132.:29).

If Abraham eventually creates spiritual children. He will probably have those spirit children enter into their own plan of salvation. He will have to create a world for them and provide a savior for them. Perhaps his firstborn in the spirit will become a savior for his spirit children like Jehovah did for Elohim. It this does occur, then Abraham will be the father of a Messiah, or a Christ. Granted not our Jesus Christ but still a savior...

Edited October 18, 2011 by mikbone

[Maureen]

I don't dispute any of this. Jesus is the "I AM" or "Jehovah" of the Old Testament.

It's that Jesus tells the man he must "do" something that I was trying to point out.

That may be so but, you also said:

It's interesting that Christ is referring that "God" or the Father is "good," not even Himself. This is a subtle stab at the Trinity in my view.

Which is what I was disagreeing with.

M.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I suspect that you don't really believe that. For example, do you believe that you will inherit God's fatherhood? That you will become the father of Christ?

I think that people who that make it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and at some point, it may take a while, will obtain all the privileges and glory that comes with everything done by those we are sealed to. I think possession equating to ownership is something that won't really apply in that setting. When my sister had a child, for example, last year, this was her first child, she let me help her with many aspects of the delivery and birth and I felt a small glimpse of what that type of joy must be like. Even though it wasn't my child it was felt in a similar amount of joy to when I had our children. I think that ability is what we are after in this life, that is what eternal joy is all about, to experience joy in the success of others.

Let me ask you a similar question .... Does God know what it feels like to deliver a child? All the joys, sorrows, happiness etc.? How is that possible? That is the reward for reaching the highest level. I don't know how it is done. I don't know how Christ could feel all our pain and sorrow. But I do believe it is possible. That is the glory of God, to not have to do everything with individual effort to experience the joy of others, that is how it is endless and eternal.

[Guest Magen_Avot]

Wow! It took me two days to reach the end of this thread, and I'm sure it will keep growing.

I want to thank JudoMinja for this thread, although there have been some confusing thoughts and a bit of "off-trackedness" IMO. I've never given much thought to whether or not the "As man is, " doctrine” is connected to the Father or Son. For me it is the Father.

For everyone concerned I think it would have been helpful to establish what it means to be a "god" in context to the doctrine quoted above.

To this end I submit that: Becoming a “God” is the same as achieving the Celestial Kingdom as the head of an eternal family (or Father and Mother; King & Queen; Priest & Priestess). (I know this could be a whole new thread but for the sake of time I’m keeping it simple).

I draw on the following points:

1) Families can be together forever

2) Heavenly Father is the head of His eternal family

3) Life on earth is patterned after heaven

4) Eternal progression

5) Eternal posterity

Because of Christ we can be joint heirs in all the Father has,… one aspect is Eternal increase. We do not diminish our Father by recognizing that he once lived on an earth and that he is our Father in a deeply personal way. Whether or not he was also a Christ is interesting but should not be a distraction from our purpose on this earth or our possible inheritance later.

In 1986 I was visited by three members of my family from the other side of the veil. I learned a few things from this: 1) Families are organized, 2) the Priesthood is essential and without it there is no family organization and 3) They are very engaged in the goings on with their family on this earth.

I do not suppose that all members agree with me. We have interesting ideas, and I don’t want to take away from different views. I am; however, saddened that there has been a softening of doctrinal points over the last couple of decades, especially the TV appearance that has been discussed even though I agree that it’s not a good topic for national debate.

Jerome1232, bravo for your comments. You are not alone in your thinking "that marriage and the family unit make great analogies for our relationship to God" And Dr. T,… I loved your questions and that you kept your cool so well in deference to some of the responses you got. I am sensitive to your beliefs and recognize that you hold our God with such a sacred esteem. I would want to convey to you that the LDS view (if we can seem to agree on it) discussed in this thread equally extols our esteem of God, as it brings a sense of awe and responsibility not arrogance.

Thanks for hearing an old and weary Elder.

[Guest Magen_Avot]

...and Snow. I don't want to sound mean spirited or anything, but every time I see your avatar,...

I, uh... well,... I'm tempted to poke it. :lol:

Edited October 18, 2011 by Magen_Avot

[Seminarysnoozer]

Wow! It took me two days to reach the end of this thread, and I'm sure it will keep growing.

I want to thank JudoMinja for this thread, although there have been some confusing thoughts and a bit of "off-trackedness" IMO. I've never given much thought to whether or not the "As man is, " doctrine” is connected to the Father or Son. For me it is the Father.

For everyone concerned I think it would have been helpful to establish what it means to be a "god" in context to the doctrine quoted above.

To this end I submit that: Becoming a “God” is the same as achieving the Celestial Kingdom as the head of an eternal family (or Father and Mother; King & Queen; Priest & Priestess). (I know this could be a whole new thread but for the sake of time I’m keeping it simple).

I draw on the following points:

1) Families can be together forever

2) Heavenly Father is the head of His eternal family

3) Life on earth is patterned after heaven

4) Eternal progression

5) Eternal posterity

Because of Christ we can be joint heirs in all the Father has,… one aspect is Eternal increase. We do not diminish our Father by recognizing that he once lived on an earth and that he is our Father in a deeply personal way. Whether or not he was also a Christ is interesting but should not be a distraction from our purpose on this earth or our possible inheritance later.

In 1986 I was visited by three members of my family from the other side of the veil. I learned a few things from this: 1) Families are organized, 2) the Priesthood is essential and without it there is no family organization and 3) They are very engaged in the goings on with their family on this earth.

I do not suppose that all members agree with me. We have interesting ideas, and I don’t want to take away from different views. I am; however, saddened that there has been a softening of doctrinal points over the last couple of decades, especially the TV appearance that has been discussed even though I agree that it’s not a good topic for national debate.

Jerome1232, bravo for your comments. You are not alone in your thinking "that marriage and the family unit make great analogies for our relationship to God" And Dr. T,… I loved your questions and that you kept your cool so well in deference to some of the responses you got. I am sensitive to your beliefs and recognize that you hold our God with such a sacred esteem. I would want to convey to you that the LDS view (if we can seem to agree on it) discussed in this thread equally extols our esteem of God, as it brings a sense of awe and responsibility not arrogance.

Thanks for hearing an old and weary Elder.

I come from a large family. I would sometimes play, when we were young, 'house' with my sisters. My younger brother would be forced to join in as the Dad of the pretend family. There was probably a lot of learning going on there that we didn't realize was happening in terms of our growing ability to make relationships and those interactions.

Wanted to ask you a question (or anyone who wants to respond); as an LDS member do we believe that we belong to one big family of brothers and sisters, a spiritual family, even before we came here?

I find it interesting that we put so much focus on this temporary, probationary arrangement as "family" more than our real family which is our brothers and sisters. I would be curious to hear, as you indicated "Families are organized" if we think that the overall organization of spiritual family is the real family and our earthly family is the sub-family (for lack of a better word right now). Or is it the other way around, our probationary family is the 'real' family organization and the spiritual family of brothers and sisters takes second place to that arrangement and organization. Kind of like when I see a fellow "sister" at church, I call her "sister" even though I know she is not my biological "sister". In the next life, I suspect that perception will change back to what it was before coming here, which is to call my sister a sister and mean it because that is the "family arrangement".

[annewandering]

Why do you not believe this is a real family that we bear and raise here? It seems pretty real to me. We have progressed since we came here. We not only have a spiritual family we have a physical family. Both are important but we had part in creating the later. We are all part of the spiritual family. but this physical family is so important that we do huge amounts of family research and temple work to connect our family together. Why dont we just gather names and do the temple work indiscriminately if its not important to have the family relationships? Why are we responsible for our family lines and not just every name we come across? It would be lots easier if we just did them all as we found them.

Why is it important to have family units here? If it werent then there would be no point to chastity in and out of marriage. In fact marriage would be unimportant. Why bother if it doesn't matter who is in each family?

Chastity is important for a big reason. Children are to be born in a family unit. Why do we emphasize that so much if family is just a mortal thing?

[JudoMinja]

I want to thank JudoMinja for this thread, although there have been some confusing thoughts and a bit of "off-trackedness" IMO. I've never given much thought to whether or not the "As man is, " doctrine” is connected to the Father or Son. For me it is the Father.

This thread has definitely been all over the topic and gone many directions. I can see how it would be confusing, especially since I started it with some pretty free-flowing thoughts and wasn't really all that solid or concrete on my own ideas yet. I'm glad you've found it useful and thought provoking. :)

Mostly, I wanted to explore the nature of God before the creation of this earth and our mortality, hence the focus on the "God once was" portion of the couplet. Since the church takes no official stance on this, we have no clear revelations or scriptures about it, and it isn't really something necessary to understand for our own progression through mortality, it was more an exercise of "fun" speculation to get some ideas from others and get the thoughtful juices flowing. Just how much our own progression is a reflection of what God "was" depends on exactly how similar we think God's "progression" was/is to ours.

I would agree that family is key to understanding that. There are many, many lessons that can be learned from our relationships with our earthly families that pertain to our relationship with our Heavenly Father, the Savior, and everyone else in the eternities.

[Guest Magen_Avot]

I come from a large family. I would sometimes play, when we were young, 'house' with my sisters. My younger brother would be forced to join in as the Dad of the pretend family. There was probably a lot of learning going on there that we didn't realize was happening in terms of our growing ability to make relationships and those interactions.

Wanted to ask you a question (or anyone who wants to respond); as an LDS member do we believe that we belong to one big family of brothers and sisters, a spiritual family, even before we came here?

I find it interesting that we put so much focus on this temporary, probationary arrangement as "family" more than our real family which is our brothers and sisters. I would be curious to hear, as you indicated "Families are organized" if we think that the overall organization of spiritual family is the real family and our earthly family is the sub-family (for lack of a better word right now). Or is it the other way around, our probationary family is the 'real' family organization and the spiritual family of brothers and sisters takes second place to that arrangement and organization. Kind of like when I see a fellow "sister" at church, I call her "sister" even though I know she is not my biological "sister". In the next life, I suspect that perception will change back to what it was before coming here, which is to call my sister a sister and mean it because that is the "family arrangement".

Some very provoking thoughts. My wife and I have had some lengthy discussions on this topic and we suppose that one possible theory is that she and I come from different mothers in heaven. She is Native American and her people are rumored (by the other Pueblo tribes) to have come from the sky, but I don't know if that really has anything to do with anything. So I guess that I do believe that our probationary families do mimic pre-exhistant family schemes without further light and knowledge.

The family members that visited me were distinctly from my earthly lineage. I don't know what link or similarity our earthly geneology really has with our pre-existant geneology but it follows that there is a method or plan. We may or may not choose our parents but perhaps (if we consider God has plural wives: the other thread we are having a discussion on) then that might be reason to consign (fore ordain perhaps) us to specific liniages here.

(And,... what about Adam? and what about the multiple-Adam/Eve theory I mentioned earlier?,.. was it this thread?) This might bring more focus on the practice of Israel using Patriarchal and Matriarchal systems. The Patriarchal being somewhat 'macro' (chain of priesthood maybe) and Matriarchal being micro (right of kingship?). Christ's lineage through his mother to King David comes to mind. As just a theory though, I hope that made sense.

I'm not going to pretend I have 'the' answer but very interesting to think about. :)

Edited October 20, 2011 by Magen_Avot

[Seminarysnoozer]

Some very provoking thoughts. My wife and I have had some lengthy discussions on this topic and we suppose that one possible theory is that she and I come from different mothers in heaven. She is Native American and her people are rumored (by the other Pueblo tribes) to have come from the sky, but I don't know if that really has anything to do with anything. So I guess that I do believe that our probationary families do mimic pre-exhistant family schemes without further light and knowledge.

The family members that visited me were distinctly from my earthly lineage. I don't know what link or similarity our earthly geneology really has with our pre-existant geneology but it follows that there is a method or plan. We may or may not choose our parents but perhaps (if we consider God has plural wives: the other thread we are having a discussion on) then that might be reason to consign (fore ordain perhaps) us to specific liniages here.

(And,... what about Adam? and what about the multiple-Adam/Eve theory I mentioned earlier?,.. was it this thread?) This might bring more focus on the practice of Israel using Patriarchal and Matriarchal systems. The Patriarchal being somewhat 'macro' (chain of priesthood maybe) and Matriarchal being micro (right of kingship?). Christ's lineage through his mother to King David comes to mind. As just a theory though, I hope that made sense.

I'm not going to pretend I have 'the' answer but very interesting to think about. :)

Thanks, that is exactly the line of thought I am curious about. I have posted other threads a while back about these kinds of questions that I think the answer is just not available. The questions pertain to the importance of earthly lineages. Are they really temporary, or are they important to be maintained in the next?

My feeling is that they will have very little significance in the next life. The reason I say that is because in all of our history if you go back far enough I would bet there is some great great great etc. grandparent that came about because of a sin, such as rape or murder, war, one village pillaging another and taking slaves etc. If my viking ancestor, for example, raided an English town and now I have in my lineage that blood, it was as a result of some evil doing. We really are going to be stuck with that lineage forever, because of some evil doing? That has never made sense to me.

Or, as another example, if some ancestor had a disease that made him short, some deficiency of some kind and so when looking for a potential mate he finds someone his size, then from that point on there is "short" genes in the lineage because of the disease that forced him to pick a mate of that size. Or it could be the opposite. Or because of war there aren't very many options and so the ancestor travels to another land to find another group and therefore one's genes are tied into the events of war, etc.

I really have a hard time believing that our appearance and "genetic" make up will be eternally affected by all the evil doing in this world. I tend to believe that most things in this world are temporary and probationary. If we are good with a little stewardship then we will be given greater things.

[apexviper13]

St. Irenaeus: "God became what we are in order to make us what he is himself," "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is."

Clement of Alexandra: "yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god."

Justin Martyr: "[by Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest."

St. Gregory of Nazianzus: "become gods for (God's) sake, since (God) became man for our sake."

Hyppolytus: "Thy body shall be immortal and incorruptible as well as thy soul. For thou hast become God."

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why do you not believe this is a real family that we bear and raise here? It seems pretty real to me. We have progressed since we came here. We not only have a spiritual family we have a physical family. Both are important but we had part in creating the later. We are all part of the spiritual family. but this physical family is so important that we do huge amounts of family research and temple work to connect our family together. Why dont we just gather names and do the temple work indiscriminately if its not important to have the family relationships? Why are we responsible for our family lines and not just every name we come across? It would be lots easier if we just did them all as we found them.

Why is it important to have family units here? If it werent then there would be no point to chastity in and out of marriage. In fact marriage would be unimportant. Why bother if it doesn't matter who is in each family?

Chastity is important for a big reason. Children are to be born in a family unit. Why do we emphasize that so much if family is just a mortal thing?

This are my questions too.

The partial answer is that, as in all things we do here, it is important for our salvation and the test we face. Just because something is important in this life doesn't always make it eternal.

If I take a test in math and I get a question that says something like: "Jack travels down a train going 40 miles per hour, Jane gets off the train 2 hours into the trip, Jack travels another 2 hours, how far away is Jane from Jack?" That doesn't mean that I will encounter that exact situation in the real world. I won't be traveling on a train someday and run into a guy named Jack and see Jane get off the train after 2 hours.

This life is a temporary state where we are given temporary responsibilities and stewardships so that we can be worthy of greater things. If a couple cannot have children in this life because of medical reasons are you saying then that their eternities will be affected by that problem? I don't think you would. Therefore, it is not a reflection of the glory and "eternal family" that we all can have. Like all things, we show where our heart is and so we do these things to express what we want to have in the eternities. I take stewardship over my 2 boys and 2 girls, not because I want to have 2 boys and 2 girls forever, but because I value the family and want to have greater stewardships in the next life.

[Guest Magen_Avot]

Thanks, that is exactly the line of thought I am curious about. I have posted other threads a while back about these kinds of questions that I think the answer is just not available. The questions pertain to the importance of earthly lineages. Are they really temporary, or are they important to be maintained in the next?

My feeling is that they will have very little significance in the next life. The reason I say that is because in all of our history if you go back far enough I would bet there is some great great great etc. grandparent that came about because of a sin, such as rape or murder, war, one village pillaging another and taking slaves etc. If my viking ancestor, for example, raided an English town and now I have in my lineage that blood, it was as a result of some evil doing. We really are going to be stuck with that lineage forever, because of some evil doing? That has never made sense to me.

Let me just add that the reason I was visited was because I had just been adopted as an adult to two non-biological parents. (I am the first such case in the US and the second one was a person I baptised on my mission - go figure) That night I was visited by three angry fellows who were fighting with each other to speak and I had to interrupt them and make some points. They went away angry, but I was to be the first Melkizidek Priesthood holder in the entire line. After three days I was visited by three members of the new lineage and they were there to welcome me in. Only one spoke. I've always been interested in why '3' came up but it seems to be a reference to presidency.

While I do believe that our earthly family ties are significant to the hereafter, there will need to be some alterations due to the fact that not all will achieve the celestial kingdom. I believe the law of adoption will be heavily relied upon...

But that may be another thread.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me just add that the reason I was visited was because I had just been adopted as an adult to two non-biological parents. (I am the first such case in the US and the second one was a person I baptised on my mission - go figure) That night I was visited by three angry fellows who were fighting with each other to speak and I had to interrupt them and make some points. They went away angry, but I was to be the first Melkizidek Priesthood holder in the entire line. After three days I was visited by three members of the new lineage and they were there to welcome me in. Only one spoke. I've always been interested in why '3' came up but it seems to be a reference to presidency.

While I do believe that our earthly family ties are significant to the hereafter, there will need to be some alterations due to the fact that not all will achieve the celestial kingdom. I believe the law of adoption will be heavily relied upon...

But that may be another thread.

Yes, good point. thanks

[james12]

The questions pertain to the importance of earthly lineages. Are they really temporary, or are they important to be maintained in the next?

My feeling is that they will have very little significance in the next life....

I really have a hard time believing that our appearance and "genetic" make up will be eternally affected by all the evil doing in this world. I tend to believe that most things in this world are temporary and probationary. If we are good with a little stewardship then we will be given greater things.

Seminarysnoozer, I might agree in part and disagree in part. I agree that we will not be "stuck" in an evil lineage forever. Willford Woodruff in speaking on the law of adoption enthroned the importance of the parent child relationship but did not quite do away with adoption. He said,

When I went before the Lord to know who I should be adopted to (we were then being adopted to prophets and apostles), the Spirit of God said to me, "Have you not a father, who begot you?" "Yes, I have." "Then why not honor him? Why not be adopted to him?" "Yes," says I, "that is right." I was adopted to my father, and should have had my father sealed to his father, and so on back; and the duty that I want every man who presides over a Temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father." He goes on to say, ""But," says one, "suppose we come along to a man who perhaps is a murderer." Well, if he is a murderer, drop him out and connect with the next man beyond him." (GC April 6, 1894)

I think the sealing is tied to the next phase beyond this current earth life. There is something special about a father and mother that should be honored. In some cases clearly a son or daughter will not be sealed to parents but in most cases the sealing will take place. I take this to mean that posterity plays an important role in progression. However as you stated, righteousness is key.

I disagree that our earthly lineage is relatively unimportant. In a previous thread I questioned the distinction between earthly brother and sister vs. heavenly brother and sister as we near perfection, but certainly the parent to child relationships on earth are vital. Theodore M. Burton in a May 1975 conference address said,

One thing we often fail to realize is that our priesthood comes to us through the lineage of our fathers and mothers. The Lord explained it in these words: “Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers. …” (D&C 86:8.) “Oh,” I can hear some of you say, “there must be something wrong with that statement, for I am the only member of my family who has joined the Church. How could I have received the priesthood from my parents?” In this scripture the Lord was not talking about your priesthood line of authority. He was talking about your inherited right to receive and use priesthood power. This readiness to listen and believe is an inherited gift which enabled you to recognize and accept the truth.....This means we receive a right to priesthood blessings from our blood ancestry. I hope you can understand that priesthood with its accompanying blessings is dependent to a great degree on family relationship."

Priesthood power to some extent is dependant on blood ancestry. Does that mean I will continue to have some murderer in my lineage throughout eternity and thus miss out on priesthood power? I don't think so, they will be dropped out. However, neither does that mean that ancestry is unimportant.

Now skipping to the end of the second state I pick this whole idea back up with God our Father and his Son. We see Christ completing his atonement and resurrection. A perfect Son, even the Great High Priest, returning to his perfect Father. A powerful statement on the importance of priesthood and the parent child relationship.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer, I might agree in part and disagree in part. I agree that we will not be "stuck" in an evil lineage forever. Willford Woodruff in speaking on the law of adoption enthroned the importance of the parent child relationship but did not quite do away with adoption. He said,

I think the sealing is tied to the next phase beyond this current earth life. There is something special about a father and mother that should be honored. In some cases clearly a son or daughter will not be sealed to parents but in most cases the sealing will take place. I take this to mean that posterity plays an important role in progression. However as you stated, righteousness is key.

I disagree that our earthly lineage is relatively unimportant. In a previous thread I questioned the distinction between earthly brother and sister vs. heavenly brother and sister as we near perfection, but certainly the parent to child relationships on earth are vital. Theodore M. Burton in a May 1975 conference address said,

Priesthood power to some extent is dependant on blood ancestry. Does that mean I will continue to have some murderer in my lineage throughout eternity and thus miss out on priesthood power? I don't think so, they will be dropped out. However, neither does that mean that ancestry is unimportant.

Now skipping to the end of the second state I pick this whole idea back up with God our Father and his Son. We see Christ completing his atonement and resurrection. A perfect Son, even the Great High Priest, returning to his perfect Father. A powerful statement on the importance of priesthood and the parent child relationship.

That is an interesting quote. Thanks. I always thought the lineage of the Priesthood was something specific, who gave it to who. And "in the flesh" means how it is given in this life, not that it has to be given in birth. Thanks, gotta run, I'll read more later.

[heidirunner]

I have just finished reading the Book of Mormon and what I took from it was that indeed, we do have to be perfect. I am wondering if anyone knows anyone who has achieved this, who has completely stopped sinning before they died. When Jesus said "Be ye perfect as I am" in John, He was talking to the Pharisees and scribes who thought that they were righteous and better than everyone else. What Jesus meant was that no one could be perfect like Jesus.